Mixers/Consoles QSC TouchMix16 to X32

4tcmo

New Member
Our school theatre has a beautiful QSC system. 4x FOH + 2x Monitors +Sub, QSC Amps and a TouchMix16.

When it comes to Musical Theatre productions with 14 radio mics, orchestra mics and off stage wired mics we end up running 2 extra analogue desks like stage boxes for the orchestra and off-stage mics and sending 1 channel from each to channels 15 and 16 on our snake up to the TouchMix. Add to that the inability to programme scene changes with the QSC and it's a nightmare cueing every mic entry live and not having control over individual instruments in the orchestra.

So - I can get a X32 for $US2570 here in Thailand plus the stage box for a further $1150.

Is that a sensible option or should I be looking for a QSC equivalent to the X32 (or something else)? I am assuming that will be significantly more expensive.

It is also important to note that we do NOT have a sound technician at school (I am the Director of Performing Arts) - we have capable students who do the sound so they would be learning the X32 from scratch. The current students learned the TouchMix and mixed/cued the last show live. Subsequently I'd be the one installing it and learning with the students.
 
Greetings and welcome to the Control Booth forums. You've got a bit of a project ahead of you.

The X32 ecosystem represents a lot of value for the money spent but much of it comes with a fairly steep learning curve. The highly flexible and configurable nature gives plenty of opportunity to make mistakes that will be difficult to find. I do not suggest installing it 2 weeks before performance no matter how clever your students may be. I've been mixing on an X32 for several years and I'm still learning new ways to make old mistakes!

The alternative mixers either cost more for similar features or have fewer features for similar money.

If you have any pre purchase questions regarding the X32, interfacing it, or general operation of it, ask away.
 
I'd echo Tim's comments about not installing just before a performance. We've changed mixers fairly recently and although the principals are broadly the same from one to the next, the way they're implemented is going to take time to become familiar. The X32 gives you a lot of bang for your buck, but give yourselves time to get properly comfortable with it.

Welcome to the Booth.
 
Since you have limited time, might be easier to teach the students how to mark the script to mix by hand on an analog console and not depend on the programming of a digital console. Then if/when you get a new FOH console that has faders, the students know the basis of how the console works and can learn the features, but know how to use it for its basics from day 1.
So put the touchmix in the pit, feed backstage and FOH analog consoles into it so you have some overall EQ and compression control, but all of the wireless are mixed line by line on an analog console.

While I've done 100s of musicals, some with automation, I still had a script with mic numbers in unique colors with warnings the page before on something big about to happen.

Also, who would spec a touchmix for a theatre? It's designed like for an unmanned band... 🤷‍♂️
 
One of the two houses that I have spent most of my time in in the last 7 years bought an X32 to replace a 24 Channel Mackie that had a bad interaction with a bottle of Coke.

I had about a week and a half to get used to it before the first show I had to put it on, but I had downloaded the manual and read it a month before that when I heard the word, an idea I would suggest to you if you're thinking about doing it.

I should note that the price point on the X32 full size console has just dropped to $2,000 US in the country, and I'm not sure if that would affect how much you would have to spend.

I quite like the X32, though there are people who still don't. My experience is that most of those people are bitching about the Behringer name plate, and the theater that bought one still has it 5 years later and hasn't had to touch it.

Behringer's built over a million of those boards at this point I think, and they haven't gone out of business from it. So I guess their warranty experience has been pretty good. The thing voted most likely to break is the motor faders, and if you are competent, you can replace those yourself.

And of course, it has a full complement to of faders, so it isn't necessary to use all the scene programming stuff initially, if learning that would be too hard - I still haven't learned how to use it properly.
 
Our school theatre has a beautiful QSC system. 4x FOH + 2x Monitors +Sub, QSC Amps and a TouchMix16.

When it comes to Musical Theatre productions with 14 radio mics, orchestra mics and off stage wired mics we end up running 2 extra analogue desks like stage boxes for the orchestra and off-stage mics and sending 1 channel from each to channels 15 and 16 on our snake up to the TouchMix. Add to that the inability to programme scene changes with the QSC and it's a nightmare cueing every mic entry live and not having control over individual instruments in the orchestra.

So - I can get a X32 for $US2570 here in Thailand plus the stage box for a further $1150.

Is that a sensible option or should I be looking for a QSC equivalent to the X32 (or something else)? I am assuming that will be significantly more expensive.

It is also important to note that we do NOT have a sound technician at school (I am the Director of Performing Arts) - we have capable students who do the sound so they would be learning the X32 from scratch. The current students learned the TouchMix and mixed/cued the last show live. Subsequently I'd be the one installing it and learning with the students.
I haven't read any of the other posts, but ABSOLUTELY do that. The touchmixes are absolute garbage for live shows. I've used them extensively and they're only good for breakout/panel sessions and set it and forget it applications. The X32 is easy enough to learn that I've never had students have a hard time picking it up and it will give you a lot more easy versatility than the touchmix. It might have had a learning curve when it came out about a decade ago, but its so ubiquitous at this point that there are tutorials and walkthroughs all over the internet and a ton of user support to help learn the ins and outs. Add to that the mixing station app (https://dev-core.org/mixing-station/) that improves and expands upon the actual x32 app, you've got a ton of power and versatility. Touchmixes have a LOT of power built in, but when you add the cueing issues and the lack of physical faders, they're a nightmare to mix anything fast paced on.

On the flip side I will say Behringer seems to be having a rough go of things lately so support has been worse than normal and people seem to be having supply issues, so verify you can actually GET an x32 before settling on that. There are some other options (though I don't know thailand or whats available) but I'm adamantly against touchmixes for anything serious, the limitations are too much.
 
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I would've given different advice pre-COVID, but Midas/Behringer's manufacturing and tech support has collapsed over the last year. I would probably try to look at a Yamaha TF or an Allen & Heath console instead if you can -- though as others have said, not sure what's available at what price points in your region.
 
Our school theatre has a beautiful QSC system. 4x FOH + 2x Monitors +Sub, QSC Amps and a TouchMix16.

When it comes to Musical Theatre productions with 14 radio mics, orchestra mics and off stage wired mics we end up running 2 extra analogue desks like stage boxes for the orchestra and off-stage mics and sending 1 channel from each to channels 15 and 16 on our snake up to the TouchMix. Add to that the inability to programme scene changes with the QSC and it's a nightmare cueing every mic entry live and not having control over individual instruments in the orchestra.

So - I can get a X32 for $US2570 here in Thailand plus the stage box for a further $1150.

Is that a sensible option or should I be looking for a QSC equivalent to the X32 (or something else)? I am assuming that will be significantly more expensive.

It is also important to note that we do NOT have a sound technician at school (I am the Director of Performing Arts) - we have capable students who do the sound so they would be learning the X32 from scratch. The current students learned the TouchMix and mixed/cued the last show live. Subsequently I'd be the one installing it and learning with the students.


I use both a TouchMix-16 and a Midas M32 (Behringer X32) for theatre.

My opinion - the TouchMix is useful for shows that do not have a lot of microphone channel muting. And where you don't expect to be doing a lot of fader manipulation by hand. So I tend to use the TouchMix for shows with very small casts - like 4 mics or something, and sometimes I use it for radio shows with stationary microphones, comedy shows, conferences and meetings and the like. Oh, additionally I use the TouchMix-16 on larger shows as a submixer. I've used it in the orchestra pit for smaller bands where I can still mix the main feed with wifi and an iPad but otherwise the conductor has control over some aux mixes right next to them.

The M32 / X32 has physical mute buttons and physical faders which seems obvious but I find the hardware tactile buttons and faders to be indispensable to me for mixing musicals, and shows with more than 6 wireless mics. I find that even when using an iPad as a controller for the TouchMix, I still can't seem to get the same level of tactile realtime control of the mutes and faders.

Aside from the fact you already brought up that the scene recall on the TouchMix is slow and it is quite a bit faster on the M32 / X32.

This is not to be taken as a criticism of the TouchMix, but I had a recent event where with the TouchMix, one microphone began to feed back very loudly all of a sudden. It turned out I accidentally bumped the channel gain knob with my finger, the knob moved 1/4 turn and I didn't notice I had bumped it. The floor monitor started to squeal. However what was most important was the (my) confusion that resulted during the feedback - "what button did I press to cause this?" and "how do I stop this immediately?". In such a case, hardware buttons and faders might have helped me shut down the feedback more quickly. Since I was using the TouchMix it took a second or two on the TouchMix to get to the AUX screen and mute. I could be wrong, but it seems like at least the channel gain knobs on the M32 / X32 are in a position where they can't be so easily bumped.

To my estimation, your idea of an X32 makes total sense to me. With respect to musical theatre, you would be likely dealing with the same problems if you went to the QSC TouchMix-30. However, the TouchMix is a really great little board for the money and it is a fine mixer for live bands and smaller shows.

Best of luck to you.
 
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I would've given different advice pre-COVID, but Midas/Behringer's manufacturing and tech support has collapsed over the last year. I would probably try to look at a Yamaha TF or an Allen & Heath console instead if you can -- though as others have said, not sure what's available at what price points in your region.
I am in a slightly analogue situation as 4tmco. Our Touchmix-16 has issues, and has probably had most of his time around. So i'm looking around for a suitable replacement in that price range. We have an X32, mostly for our musicallike productions. Five years ago the Touchmix came in to replace our Dynacord powermate 1000 for daily (or rather odd-weekly) use; meetings and little productions with 2-10 channels in use. We don't have a booth, so each time the mixer has to put in place, which is quite a hassle with the big X32.
The Touchmix served well for that purpose. light in weight, takes little room and quite powerful in features et cetera. I like the possibility of using the iPad. The backside is the lack of physical faders, and extra knobs for adjusting the channel properties.
Thus I would like to replace the touchmix for something alike, a digital mixer with minimal 10 to 16 inputs, physical faders, preferable not bigger than the powermate (64x60cm's) (and hopefully also not that heavy: 17 kg).I would also like it to be ready for the futere, e.g. things as Dante.
An X32 compact or producer would do. Pro's are the flexibility, and obviously that we are familiar with it. Also the possibility of an S16 that also could be used with the full-blown x32. Cons are it's fairly heavy. And possible what MNicolai says about the production an tech support? I'm also a bit afraid that the X32 is for so long on the market that a new generation is about to appear?
What do you think? Have you alternatives in mind I should look at?
 
Have you looked at the X-Air series, Vince? They drive a lot like the x32, and I gather they're quite a bit lighter...

The new line is already out from Behringer: the Wing, and I see no indication they're dropping the x32, though, like you, I suspected they might.
 
FWIW, the M32 is much better on both the ergonomic design and in terms of fit/finish. We own an M32R and X32 and the M32R feels significantly more solid. We also have two S16 stage boxes which have been mostly all set, but recently the AES50 straight failed in one of them right before a show.

That being said, I don't particularly like either - they're hard to use and have lots of silly quirks that take a lot of effort to learn about - for example, they didn't have 1-1 patch until 2019, which is something I can do on an LS9. We've done quite a few musicals with the M32R/X32 and they struggle a bit. But there isn't much else in that price bracket that competes with it. If you were to step up what you wanted to spend the A&H Avantis, Yamaha QL, or the DiGiCo S21/31 (our flagship is currently an S31) are all great options.

The X32 will work, you just might need to fight with it a bit to get it where you want.

- Nick
 
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{big snip of stuff I spent 20 minutes writing}

Moving on to Vince's question... the low end/low channel count mixer market seems kind of stagnant right now. I'm an old Yamaha guy so would consider the 01v96i. By today's standards it's over built, may have subjective sound quality issues, and is expensive. But it comes with 2 stereo inputs, 12 mono inputs on XLR or TRS, incredible routing flexibility and a whole bunch of expansion card choices. Yamaha has parts, service and support. Yamaha has a great record of reliability as well...

The Soundcraft Si mixers are pretty straight forward but come with a limited feature set and access to i/o and expansion that belie their internal limitations. Sadly, Soundcraft has pretty much abdicated further development of the Si line (compare with Behringer's continued development of the X32 feature set) and to me, the Si are dead-end.

Allen-Heath I do not use often; like "in the last 7 years". As a system engineer, I didn't see many dLive desks coming in, pre-pandemic. I know A-H has done well with house of worship installations recently. Carefully review the feature set of their smaller mixers...

DigiCo has a couple of smaller mixers. I've not used or seen them used.

Midas has nothing in compact mixers other than their version of the X32. The M32 rack is a decent mixer and one I rather like mixing on once it's set up, routed and patched. Oddly, the same as the Yamaha 01v96...

Avid - nothing, small mixers ain't their thing.

Musik Messe is coming up in October.... /nudge, wink
 
I've used the Soundcraft Si, Yamaha everything, X32 and Allen and Heath Qu and SQ.
Currently the SQ is a big favorite of mine because of the layout. I really appreciate that all the buttons and knobs aren't in a straight line and there's space to put tape.
It's an easy enough console to teach someone to use but has lots of flexibility.
I also love that you can put a dante card in it but it can also use its own AH stage boxes.
Also the PC and iPad app are great. Never had an issue and love that they're flexible without having to use a 3rd party app.
 
...and, having got on the x32 horse in the early 2.x release train timeframe, I was told that was a limitation of the hardware, and would never be overcome. Do you know how they overcame it, perchance?

I have some ideas that deal with time sharing resources, mostly. No idea how my speculation works with the actual comp-u-stuff inside, though.

I also find the continued references to a known and disclosed limitation of the first "value" digital mixer to be more than a bit incongruous. All the other mixers at similar price points came after, and exploited improved hardware and design principles based partly on the skewering Behringer received for this one thing. Note that Behringer is still selling volumes of the X32 and it's ecosystem and updating features. Soundcraft? Nope. Yamaha? Didn't play the game. Presonus? Puhleeze. The contenders remaining sell for more than the X32.

And I hate being a Behringer apologist - I bought my first X32 really wanting to hate it so I could call it cheap Uli-trash. I ended up buying another for myself, one more for the company I manage, and a pair of M32 for the company shortly after. Why? Because nobody else delivered the combination of features for the money.
 
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I own two X32s, one compact and one full size. Work has an M32, and I recently installed an M32 at church. The capability is there, and I like have a familiar interface in all of those places.

If the Wing sells really well, I could see the X32 going away, but my sense is the latter is still selling so well that they'd be nuts to retire it. Parts obsolescence could kill it, but product volume might high enough that Behringer can control that. Smaller volume products are more likely to get hit with parts going out of production.
 
I also find the continued references to a known and disclosed limitation of the first "value" digital mixer to be more than a bit incongruous. All the other mixers at similar price points came after, and exploited improved hardware and design principles based partly on the skewering Behringer received for this one thing. Note that Behringer is still selling volumes of the X32 and it's ecosystem and updating features. Soundcraft? Nope. Yamaha? Didn't play the game. Presonus? Puhleeze. The contenders remaining sell for more than the X32.
Wait; the Si Impact is dying? Shame; I liked its UI better than both the x32 and the SQ series. Just the Impact; the rest of the Si's were poorly designed crap.
 
Because nobody else delivered the combination of features for the money

Basically this. It's the Model T of digital consoles. On the M32 vs X32 argument, I have to say there's very little difference at the core. Behringer does not differentiate in software between the two. I regularly work on a Producer (don't recommend) which doesn't even have a workaround for the fact that the board does not have physical mute group buttons which effectively makes it impossible to program mute groups using the surface by itself.

All that said, I moved to a M32 from a GLD and aside from the fact that they put the layer switching buttons on the wrong side of the fader bank, it was pretty easy to adapt. The biggest hurdle is the routing and patching, which is still an incomprehensible mess compared to how A&H does it.
 
In a fixed installation, I like the ergonomics of the M32 better. The steeper angle of the screen and meters makes it easier to see from a seated position. That same feature makes a road case a lot bigger, so I prefer the X32 for lugging around. (My gigs have to fit in smaller vehicles.) I have not tried to compare the nuances of the mic preamps and converters.
 

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