Question about tracking vs Cue Only

[soundguy99]

Hi Guys,
I have a Pallate VL 64 console and I am trying to get the most out of it,
I have a question about tracking, as I have watched the Pallet training videos and read many articles on tracking vs cue only mode, and I am having a hard time understanding the advantages of a tracking console vs cue only, specifically when it deals with theatrical type shows.
We have productions that are less than a week long, using mainly conventional fixtures and only a few movers.
If were doing a cue list of 80 cues, and I want to make a change to cue 5 of 80 lets say, as I understand it in tracking mode that change in cue 5 is tracked forward until it comes to a blocking cue or until those dimmers are told to do something different. If the director is happy with those other cues, why would I want that change to apply to any other cue except for cue 5, and there for what advantage is there with the tracking mode vs cue only. I understand where if I needed to make a change to a group of cues where that would save time but other than that I am a bit confused about the benefits I have been hearing about about tracking consoles.
Also if anyone knows the pallet and knows if there is a way to set it so that MIB (move in black) is set by default that would be appreciated,
Again any help is greatly appreciated,
soundguy

 

[danTt]

Let's say you have a practical written into a scene at 75%. You have 10 or twelve cues in the scene as people enter or exit. After a dress run, the director asks you to make the practical half as bright. With Cue-Only, you'd need to make that change in each of the 10 or 12 cues. With tracking, if you set the transition cue after the scene to a block cue, you could make the changes in the first cue and track it forward. Now, this is a simple example, but let's say the director also wants you to make the front light twice as bright, and add more color to the cyc, and maybe change the color of the side light, all for these 10 or 12 cues... starting to see where tracking comes in handy?

 

[soundguy99]

Somewhat, that would definitely help if youre consistently doing multiple cues per scene, where each "scene" is a block and is made up of multiple cues. The cues within that scene would then tracking, but scene to scene would be cue only, as you would`t necessarily want the changes you make in a specific scene or group of cues, to track into the next scene, if I understand this correctly.
In our case although we sometime have multiple cues per scene ie 10.1 10.2 10.3 ect. we don`t do it enough I would think to setup in blocks of cues as you were describing. Seems to me we would be spending too much time, setting up blocking cues, than just ruining the console in cue only mode, and editing things on a cue by cue basis.
Forgive the ignorance. but I know we should be doing the tracking, and even the part cues and setting the shows properly, and all that, but at the same time, as I read and try to learn how to do some of these features, I find that its taking more time and effort than the benefit's worth, especially when you have a director over your shoulder. So I am trying to see where the time saving effects come into play when I have to do more keystroke to do setup the cue blocking, and part cues and all that, vs not doing any of it, making changes on a cue to cue basis.
I am not trying to be against those features on the contrary I am trying to understand them better, in hopes I could start using them, however I don`t want to find myself spending, more time setting things up on something thats supposed to save me time if you know what I mean,
Thanks,
Again

 

[zmb]

Tracking and Cue Only modes both have different ways causing hassles. Primarily concerning if you realize that something you programmed in needs to get turned off earlier in the cue stack, tracking lets you find the cue you want it off it and it can be taken care of once. But if you're using Cue Only, every cue between the original off cue and the new one you want will have the on value stored in it that needs to be removed. Same in reserve if you want something on.

I find that tracking makes last minute changes easier to manage, but it does take some thought sometimes to make everything look the way you want. I've gotten into cue messes before in both modes.

 

[venuetech]

Tracking is how most things in life work. you walk into your house at night the first thing you do is to turn the kitchen light on, you head to the bathroom and turn the bathroom light on. then you head to the living room and turn the lamp on there. the status of any of those light is not going to change till you get up off the couch, go back to the switch and make them change.
The cue only version of that would be something like; first thing you do is to turn the kitchen light on, you head to the bathroom and turn the bathroom light on, (the house sensing that you are no longer in the kitchen turns off the kitchen light for you). then you head to the living room and turn the lamp on there (the house sensing that you are no longer in the bathroom turns off the bathroom light for you)
All this is my over simplified view of the process. Confusion comes when cue only is mixed with tracking, especially when the operator does not have a clear understanding of the two concepts
If i am building cues from scratch i will likely be working only in tracking mode, once its built and i am modifying cues i need to pay close attention to what mode i record the cue in.
say i need to add a pull down cue to a small table from a full stage wash, i turn off everything but two fixtures. all are to be restored in the next cue that was just a small build onto the full wash
record to track? or record cue-only? if i record to track i loose all of the full wash tracking info and will have to take time to rebuild that.
I need cue-only's ability to modify two cues with one click. with that one click it will record the pull down and move the tracking information forward into the restore cue.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I won't suggest cue only or tracking is better but could be useful to recall that tracking - I think better described as move fade - came from the piano board tradition where cue only was a simple physical impossibility. It was simply necessary for early computer consoles to mimic piano board operation to be acceptable. Traditions are especially central to the performing arts.

 

[JChenault]

I won't suggest cue only or tracking is better but could be useful to recall that tracking - I think better described as move fade - came from the piano board tradition where cue only was a simple physical impossibility. It was simply necessary for early computer consoles to mimic piano board operation to be acceptable. Traditions are especially central to the performing arts.

Bill
This is not the way I remember the development. The early computer boards copied the idea of preset consoles. Ie you had infinite presets. This was true from the first Kliegl board that never saw the light of day, through the Thorne "Qfile" series, the early PDP board that Gordon pearl man did that ran chorus line, the kliegl performance and performer.
The first board I am aware of that introduced the idea of tracking was the original Strand Lighr Palette designed by Richard Pilbrow. This was a major step forward in console development.

For theatrical consoles with multiple cues per scene, and lots of channels, tracking is (IMHO) a much more intuitive and powerful approach than presets. It is just a tad more complex.

 

[Footer]

Also, keep in mind a tracking console only records the channels you have on in the cue. Cue only records values for EVERY channel regardless if it is on in the cue or not. This is a massive issue for moving lights. You also run into an issue with cue only if you want to add a new light to a cue. With tracking you add the light, track it in, go to the cue you don't want it anymore, and track it out. Done. Tracking is a hard thing to wrap your head around, but it is the way every console from this point on will operate. Our rigs our getting too complex to deal with cue only desks. Every modern console that I know of tracks by default.

 

[SteveB]

Hi Guys,
I have a Pallate VL 64 console and I am trying to get the most out of it,
I have a question about tracking, as I have watched the Pallet training videos and read many articles on tracking vs cue only mode, and I am having a hard time understanding the advantages of a tracking console vs cue only, specifically when it deals with theatrical type shows.
We have productions that are less than a week long, using mainly conventional fixtures and only a few movers.
If were doing a cue list of 80 cues, and I want to make a change to cue 5 of 80 lets say, as I understand it in tracking mode that change in cue 5 is tracked forward until it comes to a blocking cue or until those dimmers are told to do something different. If the director is happy with those other cues, why would I want that change to apply to any other cue except for cue 5, and there for what advantage is there with the tracking mode vs cue only. I understand where if I needed to make a change to a group of cues where that would save time but other than that I am a bit confused about the benefits I have been hearing about about tracking consoles.
Also if anyone knows the pallet and knows if there is a way to set it so that MIB (move in black) is set by default that would be appreciated,
Again any help is greatly appreciated,
soundguy

A good piece of advice on consoles that are designed from the get-go as "tracking" is to do the initial recording in track, then modify in cue only.

Footer pretty much describes it though that tracking desks are the future as you absolutely need this function when using anything other then basic dimmers. ML's, LED's etc... all function with far less effort when the desk is allowing the attribute(s) YOU DON"T WANT TO MOVE, to track thru the cue sequences.

For basic On/Off dimmer cuing, sit the desk in Cue Only and don't worry about it. There's almost always a Track function in the record process to allow a move to function earlier or later in the cues, if so desired.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Bill
This is not the way I remember the development. The early computer boards copied the idea of preset consoles. Ie you had infinite presets. This was true from the first Kliegl board that never saw the light of day, through the Thorne "Qfile" series, the early PDP board that Gordon pearl man did that ran chorus line, the kliegl performance and performer.
The first board I am aware of that introduced the idea of tracking was the original Strand Lighr Palette designed by Richard Pilbrow. This was a major step forward in console development.

For theatrical consoles with multiple cues per scene, and lots of channels, tracking is (IMHO) a much more intuitive and powerful approach than presets. It is just a tad more complex.

Well, it seemed to me that Palette was accepted by designers and predominant on B'way for quite a while and was the the console that made piano boards obsolete. Gordy certainly has been an advocate for cue only. It's that designer vs technician thing I think, with technicians seeing a cue as a bunch of values and designers seeing it as the movement or change. My point was piano boards were by necessity move fade or "tracking" and that may have been as much of why designers seemed quicker to accept tracking than cue only.

Someone else can check me but also, as I recall, lots of fast memory was not feasible, and just recording the changes took less memory and fewer read writes than recording the whole thing each cue.

 

[SteveB]

Bill
T
The first board I am aware of that introduced the idea of tracking was the original Strand Lighr Palette designed by Richard Pilbrow. This was a major step forward in console development.

Just some terminology corrections. The console Pilbrow was instrumental in getting developed was called "LIghtBoard", not Light Palette. and was a Rank Strand desk. It's first application was at the National Theatre complex in London at the Olivier and Lyttelton Theatres (1976). This according to the 2nd edition of Pilbrow's book.

If memory serves, Rank did not want Strand Century, a US/Canadian subsidiary or the Rank parent company, developing their own consoles. SC went ahead anyway and developed Light Palette as well as Multi-Q and Micro-Q, with LP being a direct descendant of LightBoard.

 

[jstandfast]

My understanding is that there was a secret code name when the original Light Pallet was under development at Strand Century, something like 8B/4E/2PS. Which referenced the control layout of a typical broadway
musical : 8 piano boards, 4 Electricians (one guy ran two boards), 2 preset boards.

 

[thirdoctive]

To set the console to MIB, S2 (Show Options), S10 (Cue List), Check "new cue list use MIB" at bottom .

 

[phenry]

I have also worked at a venue that made the transition from cue only to tracking. Any fundamental change like that will require some period of adjustment. There are advantages to both tracking and cue only. I always record in tracking, and most of the time edit in tracking unless I know there will be a lot of single cue only changes needed.
It may help you to know that on the Palette, when you go to update (or record) a cue, if you hit shift+update it will bring up a window to allow you to select cue only for that action only. Keystrokes would be: (edit level)> shift+update> s10 >enter. Or if you prefer command line: (edit level)> update> s11> enter.

 

[JChenault]

Just some terminology corrections. The console Pilbrow was instrumental in getting developed was called "LIghtBoard", not Light Palette. and was a Rank Strand desk. It's first application was at the National Theatre complex in London at the Olivier and Lyttelton Theatres (1976). This according to the 2nd edition of Pilbrow's book.

If memory serves, Rank did not want Strand Century, a US/Canadian subsidiary or the Rank parent company, developing their own consoles. SC went ahead anyway and developed Light Palette as well as Multi-Q and Micro-Q, with LP being a direct descendant of LightBoard.

Steve
Thanks for the correction

My memory is that the multi-Q was out there before the Light Palette. The reason Kliegl developed the Performer ( or performance, never can remember which was first ) was in response to the Multi-Q. The Light Palette was not on the market ( at least in the US) when Kliegl srarted development.

 

[SteveB]

Steve
Thanks for the correction

My memory is that the multi-Q was out there before the Light Palette. The reason Kliegl developed the Performer ( or performance, never can remember which was first ) was in response to the Multi-Q. The Light Palette was not on the market ( at least in the US) when Kliegl srarted development.

Not sure of the timing of Multi-Q and LP. Kleigl had marketed and sold in the US, the Thorn Q-File and Q-Level prior to developing their own desk in the Performance. I encountered one of these in what was known at the time as Theater D at SUNY Purchase. This was fall '79, with Billy Mintzer (Lighting Instructor) being instrumental in getting this spanking brand new desk installed. Within a week it had a cup of coffee spilled on it. I ran into an LP in the early fall of '78 at a dinner theater I worked at that was doing a Broadway tryout, it too was pretty new. The Multi-Q I used was installed at my space - Brooklyn College, in 1978 (I was there staring in '81), so it did indeed pre-date the LP and Performance. The Kliegl Performer was the small desk, single monitor unit (nice console actually). I seem to recall Steve Terry commenting that the Multi-Q was designed for and became the touring desk for A Chorus Line,.

 

[soundguy99]

Sorry guys for the delay in replying, I just finished a show the last 5 days, 15 hour days.
Thanks for all the responses,
Hopefully I will get a chance to sit down and play with it, and experiment in a bit more detail with the tracking side of things.
We always found that when we needed to make changes to a cue we were constantly having to use the cue only option, cause the changes we were making was always affecting the other cues, so to save time time using the cue only option, we just found to save time we ended up putting the entire console in cue only option globally.
I do understand that for moving lights tracking makes total sense, as its naturally continues sequences.
I will have to play with that and see how the response is both tracking forward and backwards in the cue list.
Also thanks thirdoctave for the MIB, every other option on the console had it it suppressing the MIB but not setting it up as a default. I expected to see it under show options as a global setting which is probably why I over looked it.
Again Thanks for the help guys I really appreciate it.
soundguy

 

[avalentino]

Hi all. Just a point to clear up. Putting a tracking desk into Cue Only mode does not make it a preset desk. Those are entirely two different things. When you enable Cue Only on a tracking desk, all you are doing is saying "please append the Cue Only command to every channel edit, record and update." The fundamental rules of what it means to be a tracking desk are still in place. The easiest example is this. Imagine you have written 10 cues. Each of those cues contains channels 1 through 10, and nothing else. Then imagine you are doing something (don't care what) but have taken channels 15 thru 20 and done something to them. And from that state, you do a selective store:

Channels 15 thru 18 Record Cue 4.5 (or whatever syntax your desk of choice uses).
On a tracking desk, channels 15 thru 18 will be stored with their current values, and channels 1 thru 10 will track into cue 4.5 at the values they had from cue 4.
On a preset desk, channels 15 thru 18 will be stored with their current values, and there will be no information for channels 1 thru 10.

Most tracking desks will have some way to modify the results of a selective store (on Eos family products, for example, 15 thru 18 record 4.5 rem dim will drive the intensity for channels 1 thru 10 to zero and allow non-intensity information to track in).

This is something that is often confusing to people - some of whom DO expect Preset behavior when a tracking desk is placed in Cue Only mode. But they are not at all the same. Tracking desks have a lot of additional behavior based on cue list ownership - which comes in to play in a multiple cue list environment when taking cues out of sequence. I've not worked on a preset desk in a long time (so any of you can please correct me if I'm wrong), but I don't think preset desks have that same concept. Hope that helps!!

Anne

 

[Jay Ashworth]

A recent comment in the reheated "what desk should I buy" thread leads me to a topic I don't yet quite understand:

Why would anyone want "cue-only" on a theatre board?

What is meant by "tracking" (which, to me, amounts to "you can think like you're programming a Smartfade, but still overlap your cue playbacks") seems to be the obvious way for a light board to work, though it does make the processor work a little harder to figure out where everything should be when you Goto a cue.

But from the way cue-only was described in the Ion training vids I was watching, it seems pretty useless. To me. Though I am young, and not much traveled in these parts.

 

[SteveB]

If you are recording in a linear fashion - I.E. starting with 1 and progressing thru the show as 2, 3, 4, etc... then tracking works well.

If you have a visiting company for the morning and they have cues on paper, where Cue's 1, 8, 10, 14, 22, & 30 are all the same look, and then 5, 11, 14, 23, 31, etc... are blackouts, etc... it makes sense to build up cue 1 then also record as all the other cues using that look, repeating this method as needed till you have the show quickly in the board.

Tracking can screw you royally if not turn off in this scenario.