Design Questions for dance designers

[derekleffew]

1. Do you shutter your shins/shin-kickers/shin-busters off the floor? Why or why not?

2. What fixture do you typically use (on a "standard" 40'-0" wide stage)? I've seen 4.5x6.5, 6x9, and 6x12.

3. On the sidelight booms, do you ever use Fresnels or PARs, or is it always ERSs?

 

[Esoteric]

1. Yes, to get rid of the bounce and because it was the way I was taught (isnt that a good reason to do anything?). Unless I am hanging a double shin in which case I usually want the second one to bounce (ie a pattern).

2. If I have my preference 6x12.

3. I have used PARs for tops (think pipe down ends only from the floor), but that is the only position I have ever used them from.

Mike

 

[Grog12]

1. Do you shutter your shins/shin-kickers/shin-busters off the floor? Why or why not?

2. What fixture do you typically use (on a "standard" 40'-0" wide stage)? I've seen 4.5x6.5, 6x9, and 6x12.

3. On the sidelight booms, do you ever use Fresnels or PARs, or is it always ERSs?

1. Yes I subscribe to the "floating shins" method. When you shutter off of the ground you can make a dancer literally look like they're floating because you have no spill onto the floor.

2. This generally depends on my inventory... Currently I use 36 degrees. In my perfect world I hang a double shin a 19 degree far shot and a 36 or 50 degree close shot.

3. Again this depends on my inventory, and also the show. I'm notorius for dropping patterns in boom positions. I also want to be able to shutter out of the audience off the background (whether its a full black or cyc). If I'm working in a limited inventory venue I will on rare occasion allow my heads to be PARS and if really in a pinch my mid's to be PARS. I prefer to stay away from Fresnels unless the theatre is well stocked on barndoors.

 

[DELO72]

1. Do you shutter your shins/shin-kickers/shin-busters off the floor? Why or why not?

2. What fixture do you typically use (on a "standard" 40'-0" wide stage)? I've seen 4.5x6.5, 6x9, and 6x12.

3. On the sidelight booms, do you ever use Fresnels or PARs, or is it always ERSs?

1) I do shutter them off the floor. This way the dancers appear to be floating across the stage as the light just catches the edge/top of their feet. You have the Mids and heads to light the stage with, so it's nice to have once option that merely pulls them out of space and just illuminates them as if by magic. As there is no way to shutter the mids and heads off of the floor, the shins are your only option to color/light the dancers without also lighting the space as well. It's nice to have that extra variant/option available to you.



2) The wider the better. (uh... not including 90 deg. Selecon Pacifics because that's overkill) If I have them, I would use 4.5x6.5's or a 50 deg. Source Four or lastly a 6x9. Worst case I go down to a 36 deg. Source Four, but never a 6x12" as that is too small for any real coverage wing to wing.

3) 95 percent of the time for me it's ERSs as you want that shuttering capability to get the light off of the front of the legs. If you have to based on your inventory, then WLF PARs or Fresnels with barn doors as an emergency option for the heads. Never (if possible) for the shins or mids.

 

[Footer]

I usually shutter off to the closest quarter mark for my shins, let the top go unless it is hitting something serious, and shutter to the smoke pocket and off the US goods (whatever that might be). Unless you are using those cool little mirrors that can get light to just scrape the floor, you just have to deal with light on the floor. For me, I will change out my pipe ends to pars way before I would ever swap out for pars on the booms. I have always used 36's on all my boom positions. It tends to cover what I need. I have pushed to a 50 on the shin, but most places I have been have 36's.

 

[Grog12]

1) As there is no way to shutter the mids and heads off of the floor, the shins are your only option to color/light the dancers without also lighting the space as well. It's nice to have that extra variant/option available to you.

There most certainly is. And its an effective tool to use depending on the dance. Its not a trick I like to use for dance rep but I sure do love it in full lengths.

 

[sk8rsdad]

I started writing this a few hours ago but got sidetracked. Sorry if posts between now and then provided the same answers.

1. Do you shutter your shins/shin-kickers/shin-busters off the floor? Why or why not?

I prefer to shutter of the floor. The primary purpose of the shins is to contour the dancers' bodies. The conic sections produced by the lights hitting the floor interact with the tops and other systems that are intended to texture/colour the floor. More often than not, the interaction is not desirable, and shuttering clear of the floor means more flexibilty in the use of the rig.

2. What fixture do you typically use (on a "standard" 40'-0" wide stage)? I've seen 4.5x6.5, 6x9, and 6x12.

It depends on how the dance makes use of the stage and the number of portals. If the dance is using the entire space then a wider beam angle is warranted on the near side. If the dance is largely center stage then perhaps a 26 degree or 36 degree beam angle will do. I tend to use something in the 50-90 degree range for low boom near-side lighting and 26-36 degree for high boom farside lighting. Alternatively, I might use all 36 degree instruments and silk diffusion on the near-side if I don't need a focused beam.

3. On the sidelight booms, do you ever use Fresnels or PARs, or is it always ERSs?

Our suspended booms are S4 PAR EAs. If we use floor booms then my preference is to use a single pole and ERSs because the unit is more compact than a fixture with barndoors and provides better beam control than a Fresnel or PAR. Keeping the portals clear of obstructions is an important factor.

 

[starksk]

1. Do you shutter your shins/shin-kickers/shin-busters off the floor? Why or why not?

2. What fixture do you typically use (on a "standard" 40'-0" wide stage)? I've seen 4.5x6.5, 6x9, and 6x12.

3. On the sidelight booms, do you ever use Fresnels or PARs, or is it always ERSs?

1. Usually, unless I have tap shoes that I need to hit, I will cut to the bottom of the masking on the opposite side of the stage. If I have to hit the stage floor, I will pick a line to cut the shutter that is usually about 2-5 ft onstage of my boom position to avoid the scalloping. (I personally hate that light travels in conical patterns.)

2. This depends on the nature of the show and the choreography. I prefer wider lenses for when the dancers are closest to my booms (ie. 50, 70, 90 Degrees) for a general covering of the stage. When I need specific lanes, I will drop back to 26 or 36 degree units. If I need a "beam" of light, I will shutter a 19 or 14 degree unit. (I have yet to use a 5 or 10 degree unit on a boom, but I am sure there will be someday when I use it.)

3. Again depends on choreography. Also depends on the underlying message of the piece/show and inventory. I once did a piece that had stoplights as a key point of the director/choreographer's message. There I used some MFL and Narrow PAR units. I agree with Grog12 in avoiding fresnels unless you have barn doors to go along. The only exception is when the fresnel is fully spotted.

________________

~Kirk

 

[SteveB]

"1. Do you shutter your shinss off the floor? Why or why not?"

Yes, pretty much always. We have dual shins in our pre-built towers. Shuttering allows these fixtures to create a side lighting of the dancers that makes them "float" with no visible lighting source, just being lit with no beams visible on the floor, as with any other side light angle. Pretty much every dance designer I've worked with does it this way. I focus the units hot at dancer at C/L, and top cut off the first border the unit creates a frontal light onto, which is generally 2 borders US of the wing the unit occupies, trying to get as much vertical coverage as possible. Ditto US side cut off the masking leg 2 wings US, or off the US near leg in that units wing. DS open or cut in smoke pocket and off proscenium.


"2. What fixture do you typically use (on a "standard" 40'-0" wide stage)? I've seen 4.5x6.5, 6x9, and 6x12."

Stage is 39ft wide at PL, 32 ft or so deep, generally 4 wings.

Currently dance tower(s) have 4 each, Altman 4.5" - 25/50 degree zooms as 2 shins, +9" and "1'6", then same at head hi's at +4 and +6'6", then flying ladders at any height, with side-by-side paired Altman Shakespeare 30 and 40 degree, two-fer'd units, 6 per wing spaced @ 2ft vertical centers. Then electric pipe end 2-der'd Altman 15/35 zooms, 2 each per electric, per side All dance tower units are generally used at 6x9/36 degree spread, and when budget allows, all 32 dance tower units, as well as all Shakespeares will go to S4 36 and 26 degree ERS's. I will allow for extra 19, 26 and 50 degree lens tubes as well and will buy and install S4 Pars at +3ft. slot in towers, with appropriate barn doors as needed.


"3. On the sidelight booms, do you ever use Fresnels or PARs, or is it always ERSs?"

Occasionally rented S4 Par or ParNel in the space between the top shin and lower head-hi on the dance towers. LD's like the blast of light these create, but much care is needed to have correct lenses and barndoors available to help eliminate flair and spill.

 

[MNBallet]

I guess I get to be the first to say: No, I do not shutter off the floor. At my home theater I have pre-built trees that are made of 3 Par 64 with wide lens, shin at 1 foot with R17, mid at 4' with R 43 and head at 7' with R79. I focus with the par beam oval going vertical with the edge of the beam starting at outside 1/8th. If I am on tour and I get ERS for my side light I have it shuttered to the same spot, 36 degree. I have been very happy with using pars for all my side light.

I think the biggest issue when designing for dance is not what inventory you have, where you place a light, or even what colors you choose. The biggest factor is what the dance floor will be. I have used all kind of dance floors and my company uses a light grey marley with a marble pattern to it. It has a matte finish to it and does not bounce the light. I hate black dance floors that are shiny. I used to have a black shiny dance floor that would bounce any light back up and just muddy out my cyc.

A second big thing is I think most of you are thinking modern dance over ballet. I work for a clasical ballet company and people want to see that point shoe all the way down to the floor. That is why I use R17 for my shin, it hits most point shoe satins and makes them just pop. With all my high sides and top light the floor is going to be lit, so I don't care that light is hitting the floor. I just don't want harsh shafts of light comming out of the wings, and very rarely take my shin lights above 50%.

Kenneth Pogin
Production / Tour Manager
Minnesota Ballet

 

[Grog12]

A second big thing is I think most of you are thinking modern dance over ballet. I work for a clasical ballet company and people want to see that point shoe all the way down to the floor. That is why I use R17 for my shin, it hits most point shoe satins and makes them just pop. With all my high sides and top light the floor is going to be lit, so I don't care that light is hitting the floor. I just don't want harsh shafts of light comming out of the wings, and very rarely take my shin lights above 50%.

I design both Contemporary and Classical and prefer to shutter off the floor. Done properly you still get pointe shoe all the way to the stage.

 

[ChascoRed]

...Unless you are using those cool little mirrors that can get light to just scrape the floor, ...

What are these cool little mirrors? I have heard of them but never seen them? Can you buy them? Where? How are they used?

 

[rochem]

Unless you are using those cool little mirrors that can get light to just scrape the floor,


What are these cool little mirrors? I have heard of them but never seen them? Can you buy them? Where? How are they used?

They're called Beam Benders, by City Theatrical.

Most any decent lighting vendor can get you some. MSRP is around $100, but you can usually get them for pretty far below that depending on where you're buying from. They're extremely useful - I just finished a dance piece where the dancers laid down on the floor for the finale as if flying, and it was crucial to the LD that she be able to light their bodies from the shins while keeping the floor completely clean.

There are also a few broadway houses that only have a tiny bit of space DS of the proscenium for apron booms, so to avoid having lights breaking the visual frame of the proscenium, the only option is to hang all the lights straight down and use beam benders on every light on that boom.

 

[derekleffew]

They're called Beam Benders, by City Theatrical.

Years ago, I did an "in the round" production of A Chorus Line. In the house, on the diagonals of the stage, were 4 oak plywood boxes, each containing two 4.5" ERSs side by side, mounted straight up, pointing into truck sideview mirrors.

The mirrors were just above the level of the stage deck. Very unobtrusive, visually. (Today, one might use a Cyberlight2 or Trackspot Bolt, but those didn't exist then. [Neither did Beam Benders.])

Just an idea to consider if one cannot afford to buy the real thing from City Theatrical.

 

[Scarrgo]

We dont do a lot of classical ballet in our space, more dance recital type stuff which is a little bit of everything from modern to those cute little kids that just stand and cry.
I dont have the units to do proper booms, so I use our zip strips on booms.Yes it hits the floor and it is true they tend to spill more than I like but it gives me four colours and lots of light.

Sean...

I wish to have ladders

 

[Beans45601]

1. Do you shutter your shins/shin-kickers/shin-busters off the floor? Why or why not?

I generally have to work on grey marley (ugh), so I always try to get the most off the floor. What makes it even worse is that our marley is in awful shape and has been painted on, gouged out with various... things, drilled on, etc. It is especially awful.

2. What fixture do you typically use (on a "standard" 40'-0" wide stage)? I've seen 4.5x6.5, 6x9, and 6x12.

Once it comes to doing booms, I have already hung the rest of the plot, usually it is whatever I have left over. Generally I use 36* S4's, PAR cans, S4 PARS and once for fun I used a system of 2K fresnels. That quickly got struck because I wanted to use them too often and dancers kept touching them. Why don't they learn?

3. On the sidelight booms, do you ever use Fresnels or PARs, or is it always ERSs?

See above.

 

[sk8rsdad]

1. Do you shutter your shins/shin-kickers/shin-busters off the floor? Why or why not?

When I use shins I shutter them off the floor so as to not wash out the color and/or textures coming from the tops. It's a question of aesthetics.

2. What fixture do you typically use (on a "standard" 40'-0" wide stage)? I've seen 4.5x6.5, 6x9, and 6x12.

36 degree S4 so 6x9 on a 34' prosecenium. It's a trade-off between coverage on the near side and intensity on the far side, so if the choreography tended to be center stage a 6x12 might be better.

That quickly got struck because I wanted to use them too often and dancers kept touching them. Why don't they learn?

I don't use any hot fixtures lower than 8' off the ground if there are going to be small children in the ensemble. Neither the kids nor their wranglers have the experience to stay safe. I have built cages out of hardware fabric to shield S4s with beam benders that were tucked in close to the proscenium for the shins on the diagonals. It's not ideal but as a compromise it works.

3. On the sidelight booms, do you ever use Fresnels or PARs, or is it always ERSs?

I've used Fresnels, PARs, LED strip lights, LED PARs, Roboscans, ERS and combinations thereof depending on the show, what's available in inventory, and available set up time. It's all about the tradeoffs.

 

[SteveB]

You folks do realize this is a necropost from 7/2010 ?.

 

[chausman]

You folks do realize this is a necropost from 7/2010 ?.

Yes, but it was a valid question. And always interesting to see the things that come up to the top again. Interesting to read.

And, Beans45601, sk8rsdad, and scargo were not around to reply when the thread was posted.

 

[derekleffew]

You folks do realize this is a necropost from 7/2010 ?.

Jump back, Jack.

New member ChascoRed, had a question regarding something previously discussed, and asked in the existing thread, rather than starting a new one. Quite different than someone answering a "how do I ...? for our upcoming production of ..." several years later. See the wiki entry necropost.