Quite the story (deluge system deployment)

Karim

Member
I hope I'm posting this in the right area and that those who read it find it interesting on some level. Read on knowing that not a soul was harmed at any point.

A few months ago, a venue that I work for quite often was undergoing some fire marshal mandated testing of its deluge curtain. For those of you who do not know what a deluge curtain is, essentially it is a giant wall of water that falls from the top of the proscenium to the stage in case of a fire to prevent smoke from crossing the proscenium from the stage into the house. At least that's how I understand them. There's a CB thread on them here:

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/general-advice/6158-deluge-fire-safety-systems.html

Any who. During this test, the contractor who was testing the curtain decided that it was in working order and went to "reset it". Unfortunately, he didn't do that correctly (I don't know the details on what exactly he did wrong) and some time after he had left the stage, the curtain spontaneously activated itself, dumping thousands of gallons of water on to our stage. This massive downpour caused 2 of our counter-weighted line sets to run away, and in doing so, they threw 45lb bricks around like rag dolls, damaging one of the metal cables used to move one of our four motorized electrics.

The water also ruined many soft goods which were in the air for a production that was in rehearsal at the time, as well as our very nice main curtain (is there another word for that?).

Additionally, our motorized pit, which leads into our basement (where we store fixtures and soft goods that are not in the air) was flooded. There was quite a bit of water down there. Anything near the ground was ruined and had to be repaired and the pit had to be thoroughly examined for damage (although fortunately it was unharmed).

It gets better. Remember that damaged cable for the motorized electric? Our TD noticed this damage after the water had been shut off. Some one was brought in to look at it, and in the process of replacing the cable, took the line out past its limit, causing the cable to slip from its drum, sending the whole electric plummeting to the stage.

Just some good 'ol times at work. We're still to this day trying to fix all of the Mac2ks lost in this week. Fortunately, the stage itself was okay after a little work, and we avoided mold by going dark for around two weeks and filling the building with de-humidifiers that were constantly on.

It was quite the disaster and we're lucky that everything turned out as good as it did. Only a few things were irreparably damaged, and they have sense been replaced (yay insurance money!). It was quite the learning experience seeing how everyone handled such an unexpected set back.

Any who, I just thought I'd share that. Any questions or comments feel free to post. :)
 
Never really been a fan of deluge systems for exactly this reason. Yes, a wall can crush someone but thats the reason we don't set up bands under ours.

I was down in a venue in the city that has one. According to one of their hands, the system false tripped during a test a few years back. Sitting DS center right under it was one of the "golden numbered" Steinways from their concert rental dept. in the city. Luckly the cover was down and they were able to get it moved with minimal damage. Had it been lid up, 200,000 piano down the tubes.
 
Our new theater re-design is getting a deluge curtain.

We screamed bloody at the idea but were over-ruled. Even the theatrical consultant hates them, but the cities fire dept folks as well as building dept. over-ruled.

The absurd thing is the theater is only a new audience chamber, with the stage tower staying. This stage has always had a steel framed, double sided fire curtain, which is being removed for the deluge. The rule says something about if you have less then 50ft from the deck to grid steel (or some such), you go deluge. Above that you can use a fire curtain. We are 44ft.

We even tried to get our college architects office to tell the city "NO", we are not abiding by this rule under the theory that as we are a state owned facility, the City of NY has no jurisdiction (remember the Indiana State Fair roof collapse ?). Nobody wanted to stick their necks out on this one, so we are preparing the "I told you so" letters.

Gotta love working for the government !
 
Wow. I wasn't aware that these deluge systems were still being used.

The rule says something about if you have less then 50ft from the deck to grid steel (or some such), you go deluge. Above that you can use a fire curtain. We are 44ft.

That's odd, we are 30' and we've got a fire curtain. That must be a local regulation. I can't imagine if we had a deluge curtain, the whole place is carpeted, all our power comes in from under the stage, and we've had the fire curtain accidentally drop before.
 
Wow. I wasn't aware that these deluge systems were still being used.



That's odd, we are 30' and we've got a fire curtain. That must be a local regulation. I can't imagine if we had a deluge curtain, the whole place is carpeted, all our power comes in from under the stage, and we've had the fire curtain accidentally drop before.

The space that had the piano incident was built in 1996. On paper deluge systems are great. In an emergency the are much more effective and also don't require a clean fire line.

And as far as the NYC fire codes, they are the most stringent in the country. NYS has tough codes alone, and the city just piles more on.

...... Something involving tapatalk.......
 
The space that had the piano incident was built in 1996. On paper deluge systems are great. In an emergency the are much more effective and also don't require a clean fire line.

And as far as the NYC fire codes, they are the most stringent in the country. NYS has tough codes alone, and the city just piles more on.

...... Something involving tapatalk.......

Is "clean fire line" in reference to the practice of keeping the area directly under the curtain free of obstructions?

If "clean fire line" means what I think it does, then we were always told to keep it clear. I winner why that is...

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
So down here our building codes are based around performance requirements. They then in part 2 go on to specify "deemed to satisfy" compliance requirements. But what it does allow for is to devise an alternate solution and have the approved on equal grounds to the traditional DTS provision.

So we from time to time see some very ingenious ways of providing the same level of safety whilst avoiding whichever aspect of a DTS solution is inconveniet to a given project. Make no mistake though, having an alternate approved means far closer scrutiny and the engagement of specialist fire engineers at a pretty penny.

But it has meant in a number of their venues the Opera House has been able to remove their steel safety curtains. Instead they have a drapery curtain that lowers to a height of 2.1m above the floor. That in combination with some very specificlly engineered air movement ie. smoke extraction systems complies.
It does mean there are now restrictions on installing drapery such that enough space is left in the right areas for the make up air to come in but I'd rather take that over either a steel fire curtain or deluge any day of the week...
 
Is "clean fire line" in reference to the practice of keeping the area directly under the curtain free of obstructions?

If "clean fire line" means what I think it does, then we were always told to keep it clear. I winner why that is...

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

maybe I'm misunderstanding but you were asking you wonder why that is? right? the reason you need to keep things clear from under the curtain is that if you are in a space with a fire curtain and not a deluge system you have to make sure the curtain can seal off the two areas. If it's purpose is to stop the spread of smoke and fire from one portion of a theatre to another but you have a piano or scenic element sitting right under it you'd end up with a gap where it isn't seated all the way tight to the floor. so it won't be properly doing it's job.
 
maybe I'm misunderstanding but you were asking you wonder why that is? right? the reason you need to keep things clear from under the curtain is that if you are in a space with a fire curtain and not a deluge system you have to make sure the curtain can seal off the two areas. If it's purpose is to stop the spread of smoke and fire from one portion of a theatre to another but you have a piano or scenic element sitting right under it you'd end up with a gap where it isn't seated all the way tight to the floor. so it won't be properly doing it's job.

Hahaha, yeah, that's what I get for not checking my posts when I use my phone! But your interpretation was correct.

The thing is, however, that we have a deluge system, and not a fire curtain. I asked the venue out of curiosity and essentially found out that the order to keep it clear isn't some kind of fire marshal law, but a house rule that comes from so high up the food chain, no one in the building actually knows who made it. :)
 
maybe I'm misunderstanding but you were asking you wonder why that is? right? the reason you need to keep things clear from under the curtain is that if you are in a space with a fire curtain and not a deluge system you have to make sure the curtain can seal off the two areas. If it's purpose is to stop the spread of smoke and fire from one portion of a theatre to another but you have a piano or scenic element sitting right under it you'd end up with a gap where it isn't seated all the way tight to the floor. so it won't be properly doing it's job.

We do very, very, little theatre in my venue. Most of the time we have concerts in. My biggest fear is not that the wall comes down and breaks some scenery, its the wall comes down and breaks the lead singer... in half. The wall comes down fast enough that during a loud show you would not hear the horns, see the strobes, or know whats up.... especially after a few beers. Yes, it hits a dasher at 6' but its still moving at a pretty good clip. Our wall weighs 14 tons, when it goes, it goes. Therefore, when setting up a show we are extremely careful to place the monitor line in the fire line or upstage of it in order to keep talent US of the wall. Monitors can get crushed and replaced...

With a deluge system the worst thing you have to worry about is wet talent.
 
well true there's that aspect too, I was working under the assumption that if you keep the stuff a person might want to walk on or be near out of that area they too will hopefully already be clear of it should that happen.
 
We had a theatre in town trip the deluge system, 5000gpm with 5 minutes run time... and no floor drains in the basement. Was an event to clean up.
 
The space that had the piano incident was built in 1996. On paper deluge systems are great. In an emergency the are much more effective and also don't require a clean fire line.

...... Something involving tapatalk.......

Just out of curiosity but to what document do you base your opinion that deluge are more effective then a curtain ?. If I could find it, the ESTA journal a few years back had a paper written that detailed the effectiveness of a standard fire curtain, with one of the advantages being a physical barrier to burning scenery, which a deluge does not offer. In truth, I have no idea which is better and I suspect many theater consultants and engineers don't either. Protocol - Fall 2009 digital edition

When a fire curtain comes in, you certainly need to get the hell out of the way, but a deluge does major damage as well, including almost always requiring a new stage floor, as well as replacing whatever in the basement gets flooded. The Joyce Theater in NY, which is about the busiest facility in NYC for dance, has had it's deluge trip accidentally on 3 occasions. Each time meant major repairs to the basement dressing rooms as well as - each time, a replacement of the dimmer racks and associated electrical systems. A local college had theirs go off on a Friday night. The public safety office discovered the problem Sunday afternoon. Kimmel Center in Philadelphia, a premier concert hall, had it's deluge go off during an orchestra rehearsal. Needless to say, these stories make me very unhappy with out situation.
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Just out of curiosity but to what document do you base your opinion that deluge are more effective then a curtain ?. If I could find it, the ESTA journal a few years back had a paper written that detailed the effectiveness of a standard fire curtain, with one of the advantages being a physical barrier to burning scenery, which a deluge does not offer. In truth, I have no idea which is better and I suspect many theater consultants and engineers don't either.

None whatsoever. The one advantage to them is a "wall" of water that theorticly nothing hot can get through. Against a fire curtain, in my view, its a crapshoot. Falling scenery can tear through Zetex just as fast as it can go through a wall of water. As far as which is more effective at stopping the spread of fire, I personally lean towards the deluge. It has nothing to get hung up on. So, once again, in my view they are safer on paper.

Also, we are looking at false trips here. Most fire suppression contracts think that if the system trips, the building is lost anway, they only care about getting anyone in the building out safely. Also, modern deluge systems are really just a series of high flow sprinkler heads across the proscenium, not a 10,000 gallon tank of water that feeds a trough like they used to be.

I'm also pretty positive its much cheaper to install a deluge system then a fire curtain, hince the reason we are seeing them more. The real question we have to ask is why are they going off when they should not? You hardly ever hear of buildings sprinklers systems going off when they shouldn't. Hell, the sprinkler in my apt right now has at least 25 years of dust on it.
 
I can see the advantages of a deluge in lieu of a curtain. I just can't imagine ever specing one without the means to get rid of the water without major damage. I can see the logic that if it is activated then water is the least of your worries, but there obviously enough instances of accidental trips that it should be considered.
 
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What if, God Forbid, someone monumentally screws up and there is an oil-based fire onstage? Wouldn't a deluge of water just exasperate the problem?
 
Now we know that rain is too finely dissipated to effectively conduct electricity (Thanks Mythbusters) but I have a suspicion that a deluge would be quite happy to conduct a serious current , like say maye a 400A mains feed?
 

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