The above Ad will no longer appear after you Sign Up for Free!

reasons for owning intels

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by moojoe, Dec 24, 2004.

  1. moojoe

    moojoe Active Member

    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    merion, PA
    yea, it sounds like a stupid question, i know
    anyway
    im going to be going up to board at my theatre and giving a propsal to get some moving lights. these lights arnt really for my purposes, since im happy with conventional fixtures but im leaving pretty soon and i know the designer replacing me will want them. so what are good reasons to own intels in the theatre world?
     
  2. len

    len Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,709
    Likes Received:
    204
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    movement = less times up in the rig re-focusing/aiming.

    replacable gobos = options to do more stuff more economically than with paint

    color mixing = less waste of gels, etc.

    because it's nearly 2005. Get with the 21st century.

    last one was a joke but that's all I can think of at the moment.
     
  3. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

    Messages:
    6,129
    Likes Received:
    413
    Location:
    Illinois
    Might check into past posts about this.
     
  4. Radman

    Radman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,219
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Franklin, TN
    As Joel Young put it:

    Conventional light plot, stuck with same colors, gobos, focus every single cue. Intel, basically can create new plot every cue. You could get really close to crossing the line and multiply together the number of settings for each parameter and come up with the max number of conventionals it could replace. But that could make the gods mad.
     
  5. zac850

    zac850 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,299
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    New York
    I'm sort of in the same position. I have a fair bit of money to buy stuff for the theater, and I am thinking about purchasing 1 or 2 inteligents, but I can not really justify it to myself for the money.

    Just out of curiosity, how easy would it be to run 2 moving heads on the fly off an ETC Express 125? I mainly run on the fly and if I wouldn't be able to use them almost every talent show type thing I have, I don't think its worth the money.

    I only have about 5 subs left open on the board, though I could always write page 2 of submasters with the intel's...


    It is really my choice to buy this or not, so its not like I have to convince anyone else, its that I have to convince myself. Is it worth spending $3,000 on 2 nice new mover's? I just keep thinking that this money can go other places (a clear-com system, a genie lift, that type of thing).
     
  6. The_Guest

    The_Guest Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

    Messages:
    383
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Detroit, MI
    A lot of what I wanted to say has already been said except

    -Cuts Down on the amount of fixtures needed (so effective). The possibilities are endless with intels. Do you ever get annoyed that you can't make every scene a knock out because of the inventory. Guess what? As soon as one scene is done, every single intelligent fixture you just used can be used whenever, wherever, and for whatever the heck you want (It's amazing!).

    -Besides all of the color mixing, controlled iris adjustment, gobos, template rotation, strobes, etc (which is still just amazing that you can do all of that without add-ons) just think of all of the motion effects. Not only can the light do anything and everything without add-ons but it can move! That right there is so useful in itself. If someone is for whatever reason looking a bit too dark (or steps out of your pools) you can quickly focus the light to fix the problem in a very stealthy manner.
     
  7. zackw250

    zackw250 Active Member

    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Bellingham, WA, USA
    My theatre just hosted a international Harp concert. They got caught up in traffic at the Canadian border and were 3 hours late to load-in. This left us with 45 minutes to program lights for the 2 1/2 hour show. If it wasn't for the fact that we have 8 intellys (HES), I would have had to go up, change gels, change focus, add gobos, etc.

    Because of the intellys I was able to do that in seconds from my Hog controller...


    And suprisingly, for a 45 minute program window, the show lighting was excellent.

    Truly understanding what kind of an asset movers are in your theatre is usually something you don't understand until you own them. And then once they break you can't figure out how you did anything before without them!
     
  8. soundman

    soundman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    119
    Location:
    Nashville TN
    Also your in school to learn right? Intells are the next thing in lighting so to give you a proper education your school will need some. The school board will eat that stuff up say not gettign them is like teaching accounting with slide rules. But if the money isn't there nothing you can do about it.
     
  9. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

    Messages:
    6,129
    Likes Received:
    413
    Location:
    Illinois
    First you learn the basics, than you learn the toys. Hmm, sit down at a computer and net away, but short of a typing class, your use of it no matter how advanced will be limited.

    First you study the normal telescope, than you get into the spectral telescope. (Spectral telescopes relates to lamps in color temperature as something to learn about.)

    In other words, and in my opinion, it's high school - four years and there is a lot to learn about conventional lights in high school much less college where they should have at least some in a good program to learn with but still not focus upon. I am of the opinion that high schools do not need to focus on waves of technology, they need to educate into the basics first.

    Some of you will never end up in a place that has moving lights. The point of high school is to give a basic education. Would it not be better to learn basics and if time even more advanced methods for lighting the stage with conventional fixtures in having lots of experience with design on them, than part conventionals and part moving lights - both in a limited way given the time spent with them?


    Wave of the future or not, aptitude for younger generations to learn stuff at an accelerated level to my own generation or not, there is more than just McCandless "A Method" to learn when designing with conventionals, as if his theory/solution can be mastered in a few years. One can spend ten or fifty years learning about design just with them and still not perfect the look you wish for. Much less, in figuring out how to get more art out of your looks. Lighting the stage is easy, making it have the effect you need is something that takes time to learn even realizing the effect possible much less how to reproduce it.


    A moving light as a tool is useful in creating these looks at times but on the base level it's often more distraction than a tool to learn the art with in a general way. You spend how much time learning how to use the moving light in comparison to perfecting the same looks over a period of shows with conventionals?

    Magic has been made with filament based lights since the 1920's and before. One might look at some of the art created by Appia, Jones, Craig and Neiher as early pioneers both in set and lighting even before a moving light was dreamed of and produced during my generation.

    Harsh I admit in reality check but newest technology in my opinion is not necessary yet in high school. (Perhaps as a once a year or every other year rental but concentrate upon the basics first.) Many of you can count your lighting experience on one hand. Others on perhaps two. I'm on the fingers and toes and still attempting to master the scene with conventionals in having made some at least moments of magic in the past. Those that say they master lighting with conventionals are limited in my opinion if you value my observation. There is ever so much more to learn even post college graduates don't master including myself.

    This is my belief. Before you buy a new hammer, learn how to use the one you have now because the new one won't more easily make the nails go into the lumber until you learn the technique.

    "And changeover will be ever so much easier." That's what you are there to learn, techniques and time savers in making what you have work as a system easier without having to worry yet about the very expensive to keep running moving lights plus normal fixtures. It's only a solution if you can afford the lamps and maintinence. High school labor is free thus not ecomomical in comparision - nor should it be. Stuff about pain in the rear that has to be experienced or all change overs short of moving lights will be just too much of a pain in the rear. Your first car is not a BMW for a reason, same with lighting equipment.

    Before you invest into a moving light that's going to solve all of your problems, learn how to use the tools you have on hand, and expand upon them with similar ones in costing much less than only one good moving light. One moving light for four to ten conventionals. How many times have you run out of fixtures available in the inventory and wished for just one more?

    Yes the moving light will expand the usefulness of this to some extent - given the learning curve is now centered around how to make art with this moving light instead of in general with what you already have not mastered. Looks good is different than the look on the audience in face when they are moved by the piece you are helping. A few more dimmers or something that is display of your high tech for the money?


    Hope this does not make those using moving lights in high school tune out my own opinion, but remember that I'm coming from a post high school and college setting where moving lights are not always available, much less mastering the lighting art with conventionals can use all the time in experience with them - just them possible in general. Some are great artists and quickly master the art, others take a lot more time. In thinking about your school, even if you are ready in having "mastered the art" with conventionals, now that your school has the extra tools, what kind of world are you leaving the next generation of students that perhaps won't master conventional's as fast as you did?
     
  10. soundman

    soundman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    119
    Location:
    Nashville TN
    I'll be the first to say I'm no master when it comes to conventionals in fact I had a heck of a time getting my ideas from my head to paper to the stage.

    Rentals are a great idea if they are possible because for non show days they are just decreasing in value the problem is some places just aren't near a rental house.

    I guess it depends on where you want to go after high school, concerts or theater. Even smaller bands are able to afford some movers. This month I did an in for chevelle they brought movers some truss and backline. A few 6 bars of bars on front and back truss were there for opening bands, I think they had something like 6 HES studio beams or colors and 8 HES studio spots along with a lot of led fixtures.

    The LD wasn't too worried about the conventional lights, she picked out some gels and told us where to point them I didn't stay for the show but from the looks of it at sound check the conventionals were just there to throw some light on the stage between songs.

    The point I'm trying to get at is that its getting so people just want to see what new and amazing effects you can create, Not to say I haven't seen/made some cool looking looks or chases with conventionals but the stuff I'm doing in MA 3d blows it out of the water. Once you work with movers its not like you stop learning about conventionals and they are not a cure all for problems. I have seen a few shows with obscene uses of moving lights and that brought down the production. As my TD said when we got our lights "Use them like chili powder, to little and no one knows what they are eating to much and it tastes like crap"

    If you want to get a feel for some higher end tech but lack budget there are some great FREE programs out there like Grand MA offline with 3d where you can throw together a show and run it using a grand MA all from your computer.

    http://www.malighting.de/home/support___service/software/gMA_OFF_Pre/gMA_OFF_soft/gma_off_soft.html

    http://www.malighting.de/home/suppo...ndMA_3Dpre/grandMA_3Dsoft/grandma_3dsoft.html

    There is the same sort of stuff out for hog PC.
     
  11. moojoe

    moojoe Active Member

    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    merion, PA
    sorry about the long response time, ive been way to busy.

    anyway, i guess i frogot to say one thing.

    this isnt for a highschool. its for a community theatre.
    most of the people here have good experiance, we're just looking to upgrade a bit more.

    thanks for all of your imput though.
     
  12. digitaltec

    digitaltec Active Member

    Messages:
    449
    Likes Received:
    38
    Occupation:
    President of CRU design, LLC
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I really don't see a reason to have movers in a HS. In HS you should be learning the basics, playing with color, playing with angles, etc. I mean yeah, there are a lot of advantages to movers but there is also a lot of disadvantages (This coming from a guy that's job is making lights wiggle).

    Also, alot of posts on here are about how you dont have the right type of gear or you want better gear because you think your gear stinks. Now, if your gear dates back to 1902 then you might want to push for some new gear. You dont always get to work with the best gear even once you get into the real world. If I walk into a venue and it has 200 Altman fixtures then thats what I got to work with. Now, there is nothing wrong with asking for some new gear but at the same time, you should also be able to make due with what you got.

    Do you get what im saying?
     
  13. moojoe

    moojoe Active Member

    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    merion, PA
    as i said before, this is not for a high school.
    and currently our inventory consists of shakespeares and fresnels, so its not bad equipment
     
  14. digitaltec

    digitaltec Active Member

    Messages:
    449
    Likes Received:
    38
    Occupation:
    President of CRU design, LLC
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Im not really applying it to your situation. If you have a good use for a fixture then I would push for it and have a reason on why and what that fixture will do to add to your production.
     
  15. avkid

    avkid Not a New User Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    5,948
    Likes Received:
    225
    Occupation:
    Stagehand/ Production Company Owner
    Location:
    Howell, NJ
    I have a good reason reason for wanting moving lights, I have two spotlights and no one to operate them!
     
  16. soundman

    soundman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    119
    Location:
    Nashville TN
  17. moojoe

    moojoe Active Member

    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    merion, PA
    ooo i read something about this. the Wachovia centre in philadelphia wanted to try it out, so for one of theyre ice shows they had every person wear a transmitter and had moving lights follow them perfectly. of course the centre still had to pay the follow spot ops because they were union, but it sounds like a really cool idea.
     
  18. soundman

    soundman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    119
    Location:
    Nashville TN
    after reading the manuel that isnt the thing I was looking for. Neat none the less.
     
  19. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

    Messages:
    6,129
    Likes Received:
    413
    Location:
    Illinois
    Given this not learning any longer or as we misunderstood the intent to bypass the beginning education in them, and your theater in having stuff already, hope you can forgive our lack of understanding. Instead you seem to be ready to build upon these lights and expeience in adding another color to the pallet, I can see how you you would want to add something more at this point. Hope you did not get too offended by our assumptionations.



    Don't rember what fixtures you were looking into, but I might or probably would start with used gear thru a repuitable supplier. Than send the gear to another repuitable service company to inspect, upgrade and or service it upon recieving the goods.



    While I don't use moving lights, I do buy lamps for them thus is what types I most hear about as active or past inventory work horses where I work.

    First avoid using anything with a MSR 700SA lamp. While when well cared for and upgraded such fixtures work well and in general Short Arc lamp fixtures have been very popular, they are also very tempormental in using a very unstable lamp when there is a problem. This would be the same story with MSR 400SA lamped fixtures.

    Instead the QT-8500/EVC, HTI-152, MSD 200, MDS 200/2, MSD 250/2, MSR 575/2, MSD 575, MSR 1200/2 and HMI 1200w/S lamp using fixtures are very stable and good lamp wise in general for reliability. This should help to narrow down the field some.



    Of good used lights U;n familior with:

    HES Studio Spots, Studio Colors, Studio 250's in being something that run quieter due to a lack of fan than the other normal moving lights. This studio line is said to be a great fixture line for a theater. You can about put them anywhere in being quiet and their options or features are similar to that of any other moving light on the advantage/disadvantage side. Trackspot, Intellibeam, Technobeam and Cyber are also good solid fixture lines with advantages and disadvantages others will know of better about than I.

    After that, VeraLite has the VL1K series that's a solid line but probably only available when new at this point.

    Martin has lots of fixtures of use from the Mini-Mac, to others that are getting to the resale market more and more like the MAC 250, MAC 300, MAC 500, and MAC 600. Of the Martin fixtures, the Mac 2K is currently the king of moving lights but probably out of budget even if used. Before this, the MAC 600 was the top of the heap in at least our inventory by way of bulk. I would have to think this was for a good reason.

    There are other fixtures on the market - lots of them, Clay Paky, Robe, Coemar, Color Tran, Hubble, to name just a few, but these at least where I work have for the past couple of years formed the core of it's own inventory.

    Hope the brand names/models are of at least some help.
     
  20. moojoe

    moojoe Active Member

    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    merion, PA
    wow, thats exactly one of the things i was looking for ship, thanks a lot. i needed a kind of list of what units theatres often use. thanks.
    and i wasnt offended, i just have to make sure to post what kind of theatre im talking about in the future.
    thanks.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice