Reasons not to get cheap moving head lights
- Thread starterBubby4j
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Amiers
Renting to Corporate One Fixture at a Time.
So get ready to slice and dice, and pick up your Blade™ RGBW's today!
lol well I will give them props for a good marketing solgan.
As far as it being good, Good for what. What kind of area are you going to use it in. Go to the spec sheet and read the lumens per meter chart can't really comment on the fixture itself as I haven't used it.
But like the saying goes cheap is cheap.
lol well I will give them props for a good marketing solgan.
As far as it being good, Good for what. What kind of area are you going to use it in. Go to the spec sheet and read the lumens per meter chart can't really comment on the fixture itself as I haven't used it.
But like the saying goes cheap is cheap.
We've used a few of the par fixtures from Blizzard with varying degrees of success. Being that they are in the ADJ/Elation Pro range there are absolutely some compromises. The units between $200 and $500 usd I have are quite bright for the price, but the build quality/menu complexity/dimming curve changes based on the product line. Blizzard is also a newer company, but I've seen positive changes addressing original issues as time goes by.
If you're looking for simple effects and a general bright light for the price this may work. I would be very concerned about the build quality of it, however. Will it be transferred between spaces? Re-hung? Road cases? What is Blizzards warranty/repair policy? Would it be worth jumping up to the MAC 101 at 3x the cost if you may get 3x the lifetime out of it?
Asking myself these questions, too....this Blizzard line is interesting.
If you're looking for simple effects and a general bright light for the price this may work. I would be very concerned about the build quality of it, however. Will it be transferred between spaces? Re-hung? Road cases? What is Blizzards warranty/repair policy? Would it be worth jumping up to the MAC 101 at 3x the cost if you may get 3x the lifetime out of it?
Asking myself these questions, too....this Blizzard line is interesting.
JD
Well-Known Member
It's important to remember that there are fixtures made in China, and then there are fixtures made in china.
What I am saying is that there are some companies (Elation, Chauvet, etc.) that are made in China that are not half bad. The reason is the company actually cares about quality and warranty. Then there is a whole slew of fixtures made in china that have no quality assurance programs and almost useless warranties. So, even though the product may look identical, one may work pretty good and have a company behind them that will honor their warranty, and another may not last the day or be bad out of the box and any warranty coverage involves a "slow boat to China" that may never return!
What I am saying is that there are some companies (Elation, Chauvet, etc.) that are made in China that are not half bad. The reason is the company actually cares about quality and warranty. Then there is a whole slew of fixtures made in china that have no quality assurance programs and almost useless warranties. So, even though the product may look identical, one may work pretty good and have a company behind them that will honor their warranty, and another may not last the day or be bad out of the box and any warranty coverage involves a "slow boat to China" that may never return!
StNic54
Active Member
You get what you pay for, indeed. There are cheap lights that should be cheap, and there are expensive lights that can sometimes seem cheap, as well. Ultimately, go with the companies that offer the best deals, the best support, and have a positive reputation. I ran into this with a set of architectural LED's I used about 8 years ago - the LED's from different batches all had varying degree of colors (in other words, some had more red than others), and they weren't meant for road use (but were advertised for it). Over time, the LED's would start dying internally, and I was told at two years (and with no warranty left) that the fixtures were too expensive to fix because the factory was in China, and shipping was a lot. After two years these Chinese LED's were cheaper to replace than repair, and they were $700/piece at the time (I think we owned 25 or 30). Had we gone with Color Kinetics or any of the other known brands, we would have spent maybe 50% more per unit, but they'd have been supported and would still be standing today.
MarshallPope
Well-Known Member
I'll say that I've played with some ~$700 no-name RGB LED wash movers that weren't half bad for what they were. Would I ever even think about using them as primary face light, or as downlight in a large space? Definitely not. Would I order some to use in a televised production without time to send back any that were defective? Nope. Were they OK for additional eye candy/sparkles on stage or as ceiling scrapers? Oh yeah, and they looked great doing it.
I guess my point is this: If you only have the budget for some cheap instruments, then by all means, get a few if you want them. But don't expect them to light up Radio City Music Hall, or even work properly every time you want them to. Know what you are getting into, and remember that you get what you pay for.
I guess my point is this: If you only have the budget for some cheap instruments, then by all means, get a few if you want them. But don't expect them to light up Radio City Music Hall, or even work properly every time you want them to. Know what you are getting into, and remember that you get what you pay for.
I have used moving lights made from China with great success. I am using them in a concert-type setting. I currently own over 100 of them.
I am also of the camp that believes there are many in the US market who will discredit Chinese manufacturers at all costs, seeing that many US companies are now using Chinese moving lights over more well-established western companies.
I know many companies in the US that use Chinese moving lights with great success. I would say it is important to have spare units lying around, and most of the companies I know in the NYC area will buy a lot more than they plan on using so they have spares and parts available.
If you are using them in non mission-critical applications and have the budget for spares, I say go for it.
I am also of the camp that believes there are many in the US market who will discredit Chinese manufacturers at all costs, seeing that many US companies are now using Chinese moving lights over more well-established western companies.
I know many companies in the US that use Chinese moving lights with great success. I would say it is important to have spare units lying around, and most of the companies I know in the NYC area will buy a lot more than they plan on using so they have spares and parts available.
If you are using them in non mission-critical applications and have the budget for spares, I say go for it.
One thing that hasn't been covered is whatever light you get, you'd better make sure there is a profile on your moving light desk to support it, or you are able to use another manufactuerers profile, or you are able to make your own. As for the blizzard product specifically, I've used the propar 336's before, they had good output etc... but I just found the build quality wasn't there I had some out of box failures that had to travel ( Over the US / canada boarders AT MY EXPENSE). They were okay for the money - I just recently sold them all off, looking for moving wash fixtures. I have to say after buying 8 Martin 101's, I'd sure like to now buy 20 of these for the same amount of money and "take my chances".
To expound a little on what JD was saying, quality assurance is a big consideration. I was speaking to a sales Rep from one of the major companies a few days ago, and he pointed out that he was having trouble with certain manufactures sending his company bad parts. He mentioned that out of an order of 100 parts that only four were functional...... Four. ( I think they are going to find another manufacturer.) This means that they had 96 completed lights with only one issue and were unable to ship any of them until that issue was dealt with. A typical Moving head fixture is made up of around 1,400 different components. When you buy a product, you aren't paying less for drastically different components, you are paying for less quality control. Labor is the most part of every product. More Specialists means more planning and thought went into the product. More eyes have been put on the product making sure that nothing goes out the door with a problem, or if there is one then it is it's fixed and replaced. Not everyone necessarily has those standards. And you end up playing Russian roulette with those components. Some will work great, Other will not. but if it breaks, you are pretty much on your own. And that's 1,4000 games of Russian Roulette. Just something to think about.
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Esoteric
Well-Known Member
Depends on what you are trying to get for sub $1000. If you are trying to get a DJ type scanner then you can get tons of stuff for sub $1k. If you are trying to compare to a 250W discharge mover you can get some decent gear for $1k or so. If you are trying to get something like a 575W mover, then yeah, are only going to get junk for under $1k.
Esoteric
Well-Known Member
The dirty little secret of moving/LED lighting is that the vast majority of companies OEM all their parts from China anyway. Many companies even have their units made under private label contracts in China. At the heart of it there really are only Chinese moving lights/LEDs (meaning some component is made in China at the least). That being said, as someone said below it is all about quality control. A large company will get shipments of thousands of a particular light and randomly (or not randomly) check quality to make sure all the units are working. If not they can sit on 500 or 600 units and still ship out huge orders on time.
The problem with companies like Blizzard (and my own I will admit) is that if an order is large enough we can't ship it if we get 15 or 20 bad units and we have to wait for replacements (which aren't quick to get).
So the issue is not quality really, but quality control.
That being said, I recently got a shipment of 80 Chauvet LED units and 45 of them were defective. The next day I got 36 Elation units and 8 of them were defective. I have never got a defective Vari-Lite (why? because they QC every unit before it leaves the factory).
So for me there are two levels. There are guys like VL who check every single unit before it goes out the door and then there is everyone else.
By the way, I buy and use Chinese units (straight from the manufacturer in China, private labeled for me) with little or no issue (we have about a 5% failure rate and a 3% warranty replacement rate so far).
So you can't say China Bad! Or anything like that. But certainly some retailers are going to have better QC than others.
Just because something is made in China doesn't make it bad. There are many major products made in China. The trick is to minimize risk by watching quality of components, build quality, and buying from someone who is going to stand behind the product down the road to support it.
Don't buy the cheapest fixtures you can find from "Joe's random website", E-bay, or direct from "Guangzhou Super Best Stage Lighting". You have no guarantee of quality components, build quality and no one to back them up. These products may have pictures and specifications that look exactly like a Martin product. They may be built in the same factory as Elation... heck maybe even the same assembly line. But what are you going to do if they break in two months? Who do you go to for parts? Who do you get to fix it? You are buying a disposable fixture with no guarantee of how long it will last or if there is any sort of possible repair when it's done.
What should you consider buying?
1) Most importantly. Call your local dealer, the person you will go to for repairs and ask what low budget products they are selling and servicing. If you need it repaired, and you want your guy to fix it, make sure he can before you buy. Odds are really good that, as Esoteric mentioned above, they may be working with a Chinese manufacturer to import a product with their brand on it to be the house brand. This is fairly common these days. PNTA is one of the top Dealers here in the Pacific Northwest. They sell "K9" LED's. Yeah, you never heard of them right. It's clearly a name that's been slapped on the product and is being sold by half a dozen dealers around the country as the house brand. While I'm a bit hesitant to buy them, I feel a lot better about purchasing a K9 light over just about any other low budget LED because I know that Seattle's resident repair wizard Carl has torn them apart in the back and knows what makes them tick. If Carl can fix them, then I know I've got a fixture I can trust, because I trust Carl.
2) If your local dealer doesn't have something they sell, then expand your search to dealers from other places that you can trust. Look for a house brand from someone like Esoteric that you can trust. Esoteric may not be close enough to repair it for you, but unlike "China, Inc" Esoteric's reputation is on the line when he sells you a product. Mike's going to make sure that it works out of the box, that the specifications in his advertising match the reality of the fixture, he's going to help you if there is a warranty repair issue, and he's going to make sure it has a decent build quality (compared to other low end products). "China, Inc" is motivated by making a fast buck, regardless of the long term results. Someone like Esoteric wants you to be a happy customer, tell your friends and buy more gear in the future. He has to minimize the risk for you in order for that all to happen. Thus the dealer becomes a layer of protection in the Chinese wild west.
http://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/Collaborative+Articles:Dealers+for+Supplies+and+Equipment
3) Finally, look for emerging smaller "no name" brands that actually stand for something. There is Blizzard, a year ago we were all talking about Neo-Neon or Irradiant products, these are "no name brands" that rise above the rest and establish themselves as name brands you've heard of. With that name identity comes reputation. Blizzard is a small, but rapidly growing brand. While it's far from having ETC standing behind the product, you are getting a recognized name, with a fairly large and rapidly growing dealer network, and this translates into a company with a reputation on the line. Which is what you need to build another layer of protection into the purchase. Now combine the Blizzard brand name with a dealer you can trust
excitable:
quiet down BillESC we know you sell them) or better yet, be lucky enough that your local shop deals in Blizzard and you've created multiple layers of protection that should help insure your purchase is not a complete waste.
Finally a couple closing thoughts:
Never buy a bunch of these products without testing one in person first. Ask for a demo. If you can't get a demo buy one and make sure it meets your needs before you drop a couple grand on a whole kit.
Watch carefully for quality of components. Some LED fixtures just say "Super bright LED's", others try to dazzle you with a massive number of smaller LED's. The good ones come with a brand like Luxeon or Cree stamped on them. Know your components.
Remember that you are buying low budget gear, they are cutting corners somewhere in: quality control, skill of the labor, component quality, and/or build quality. You should never buy this kind of gear for highly critical applications because the chance of failure is always there. Don't buy this kind of gear and expect it to survive a 150 day 160 city tour in the back of a Ford van. It's not built for that. Don't buy this kind of gear and expect it to survive really heavy use like 10 hours a day 7 days a week. You might get lucky and it might be fine, or it might fry by Thursday.
Don't buy the cheapest fixtures you can find from "Joe's random website", E-bay, or direct from "Guangzhou Super Best Stage Lighting". You have no guarantee of quality components, build quality and no one to back them up. These products may have pictures and specifications that look exactly like a Martin product. They may be built in the same factory as Elation... heck maybe even the same assembly line. But what are you going to do if they break in two months? Who do you go to for parts? Who do you get to fix it? You are buying a disposable fixture with no guarantee of how long it will last or if there is any sort of possible repair when it's done.
What should you consider buying?
1) Most importantly. Call your local dealer, the person you will go to for repairs and ask what low budget products they are selling and servicing. If you need it repaired, and you want your guy to fix it, make sure he can before you buy. Odds are really good that, as Esoteric mentioned above, they may be working with a Chinese manufacturer to import a product with their brand on it to be the house brand. This is fairly common these days. PNTA is one of the top Dealers here in the Pacific Northwest. They sell "K9" LED's. Yeah, you never heard of them right. It's clearly a name that's been slapped on the product and is being sold by half a dozen dealers around the country as the house brand. While I'm a bit hesitant to buy them, I feel a lot better about purchasing a K9 light over just about any other low budget LED because I know that Seattle's resident repair wizard Carl has torn them apart in the back and knows what makes them tick. If Carl can fix them, then I know I've got a fixture I can trust, because I trust Carl.
2) If your local dealer doesn't have something they sell, then expand your search to dealers from other places that you can trust. Look for a house brand from someone like Esoteric that you can trust. Esoteric may not be close enough to repair it for you, but unlike "China, Inc" Esoteric's reputation is on the line when he sells you a product. Mike's going to make sure that it works out of the box, that the specifications in his advertising match the reality of the fixture, he's going to help you if there is a warranty repair issue, and he's going to make sure it has a decent build quality (compared to other low end products). "China, Inc" is motivated by making a fast buck, regardless of the long term results. Someone like Esoteric wants you to be a happy customer, tell your friends and buy more gear in the future. He has to minimize the risk for you in order for that all to happen. Thus the dealer becomes a layer of protection in the Chinese wild west.
http://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/Collaborative+Articles:Dealers+for+Supplies+and+Equipment
3) Finally, look for emerging smaller "no name" brands that actually stand for something. There is Blizzard, a year ago we were all talking about Neo-Neon or Irradiant products, these are "no name brands" that rise above the rest and establish themselves as name brands you've heard of. With that name identity comes reputation. Blizzard is a small, but rapidly growing brand. While it's far from having ETC standing behind the product, you are getting a recognized name, with a fairly large and rapidly growing dealer network, and this translates into a company with a reputation on the line. Which is what you need to build another layer of protection into the purchase. Now combine the Blizzard brand name with a dealer you can trust
excitable: quiet down BillESC we know you sell them) or better yet, be lucky enough that your local shop deals in Blizzard and you've created multiple layers of protection that should help insure your purchase is not a complete waste. Finally a couple closing thoughts:
Never buy a bunch of these products without testing one in person first. Ask for a demo. If you can't get a demo buy one and make sure it meets your needs before you drop a couple grand on a whole kit.
Watch carefully for quality of components. Some LED fixtures just say "Super bright LED's", others try to dazzle you with a massive number of smaller LED's. The good ones come with a brand like Luxeon or Cree stamped on them. Know your components.
Remember that you are buying low budget gear, they are cutting corners somewhere in: quality control, skill of the labor, component quality, and/or build quality. You should never buy this kind of gear for highly critical applications because the chance of failure is always there. Don't buy this kind of gear and expect it to survive a 150 day 160 city tour in the back of a Ford van. It's not built for that. Don't buy this kind of gear and expect it to survive really heavy use like 10 hours a day 7 days a week. You might get lucky and it might be fine, or it might fry by Thursday.
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