Recording audio from an unmic'd production.

gafflover87

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Hey everyone. I've searched for similar posts but have yet to found the answers I was looking for. How do you all record the audio from unmic'd theatrical productions? Musicals are mic'd so they are easily recorded through the board, however our straight plays are never mic'd. How can I get a good quality audio recording of these productions without putting mics on stands in the house or in the audience sight lines?

I'm currently considering shotgun mics hanging from either an I-Beam at mid-house (48' from Proscenium, 25' Above house), or at 2nd FOH Catwalk (34' from Proscenium, 29' above house). Can anyone suggest the best mic for this purpose from this distance? My guess is the closer to the stage the better, however directly in front of 2nd FOH is the Center Cluster, so any sound effects that might come through it will be picked up loud and clear, drowning out the dialogue. 2nd FOH is ideal in the sense that I will have easy access to the mics for repositioning / adjusting. That's something I wont be able to do if I dead hang them from the beam. Would spaced pair give me the best audio?

I've included a Building Section for reference. Looking for any advice or product suggestions you are willing to offer. Thanks.
 

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which audience seat has the best hearing in the theater? If you can, I suggest hanging your mics around several feet above and in front of that seat.

As for choice of mics and orientation, I think that is up for debate. I've listened to a Shure stereo mic (vp88?), to a pair of Behringer C2 pointed in a roughly 90 degree uncrossed configuration, and to a pair of condensor mics spaced 15 feet apart ... I think it's personal preference as to what you think will sound the best for your situation and maybe per production.
 
which audience seat has the best hearing in the theater? If you can, I suggest hanging your mics around several feet above and in front of that seat.

Our venue has very good acoustics, so thats hard to narrow down. House center normally sounds really good, so does center under the 2nd FOH. Also we cant hang them too low, otherwise it blocks sight lines for people sitting in the back of the house.
 
It will depend a lot on the aural image you're wanting to achieve. We use a pair of shotgun microphones on our box booms that feed our Assistive Listening System, our backstage feed and can be used to record a production. I like shotgun microphones from FOH for their rejection pattern and long throw pickup, but it's going to depend a lot on placement and the quality of the audio you're wanting to capture...

Your distances are going to be difficult to capture audio at a low level and you might find the noise floor to be somewhat obtrusive in your gain structure. If you're able to record during rehearsal than go with a matched pair on a mic stand at a 45 degree angle pointing center stage from the "Producers Seat" . I personally like Neumann or if you want to crazy on your budget get a matched pair of Schoeps. They're the best in the world, but they cost it....
 
It will depend a lot on the aural image you're wanting to achieve. We use a pair of shotgun microphones on our box booms that feed our Assistive Listening System, our backstage feed and can be used to record a production. I like shotgun microphones from FOH for their rejection pattern and long throw pickup, but it's going to depend a lot on placement and the quality of the audio you're wanting to capture...

Your distances are going to be difficult to capture audio at a low level and you might find the noise floor to be somewhat obtrusive in your gain structure. If you're able to record during rehearsal than go with a matched pair on a mic stand at a 45 degree angle pointing center stage from the "Producers Seat" . I personally like Neumann or if you want to crazy on your budget get a matched pair of Schoeps. They're the best in the world, but they cost it....

I think I can get the mics 24' from the proscenium by placing them in our box booms. If they go there, they will be spaced approximately 60' from each other. Its not exactly the 3:1 ratio recommended for a Spaced Pair, but its closer to the stage.
 
the box boom placement with shotguns works well in my venue, but they are also high end and I have a lot of experience with them. I wouldn't advise the box booms in your venue. You're likely to have some funky off axis deviation.

I used to work in a venue where we suspended a PZM mounted to a piece of lucite at the proscenium height of 40' off of the first FOH catwalk to record symphony performances, but you need a sound source with a good push for that to work well.

The suggestion of the apron floor is likely your best bet. You could combine that with overheads if you wanted to sweeten the upstage areas.
 
In my small house (16 deep by 26 proscenium, dead hung lights), I have 2 hanging lavs on the second electric (which are omni, and not my favorites), and 2 PCC-160 PZMs taped to the front of the apron (which actually work better, even mostly upstage), that I use to feed our PA for front fill, and our assistive-listening transmitter.

When I first started, I didn't know how having them in the PA would work out, but it turns out that it's not really obtrusive... until I turn them off. :)

Recordings tend to have a lot of 'room' in them, but not much you can do about that.
 
Another vote for boundary mics at lip of stage. Unobtrusive to sight lines, easy to position and can be placed far closer to the action than other options. And closer to the action is the key to a better sounding recording.
The added bonus is that a good boundary mic typically has a far more neutral (flat) response than any shotgun mic.
 
In my small house (16 deep by 26 proscenium, dead hung lights), I have 2 hanging lavs on the second electric (which are omni, and not my favorites), and 2 PCC-160 PZMs taped to the front of the apron (which actually work better, even mostly upstage), that I use to feed our PA for front fill, and our assistive-listening transmitter.

When I first started, I didn't know how having them in the PA would work out, but it turns out that it's not really obtrusive... until I turn them off. :)

Recordings tend to have a lot of 'room' in them, but not much you can do about that.
@Laurence Nefzger @Jay Ashworth Back when I was playing consultant in the 80's and 90's [That's 1980's and 90's NOT 1880's and 1890's] I was using a product called the SASS-P [Stereo Ambient Sampling System - Phantom Powered] from Crown. I was placing one on the center-line of the balcony rail and using it to drive a pair of pseudo channel strips from Rane and then into three 1 x 4 audio DA's from ATI [Audio Toys Incorporated] To provide stereo monitoring for the sound effects and live booths plus stereo press mults and recording feeds plus a workable mono feed for dressing rooms, back stage corridors and offices and other booths (Spot Op's, sur-titles and translators etcetera) plus hearing assists and mono press mults. I found Crown's SASS-P to be a great product for the purpose and installed it in at least three theatres.
EDIT to expound upon Rane's channel strip:
Rane used to offer essentially a self-powered mono channel strip in a 1 RU package.
The unit provided a phantom powered mic pre-amp with three band fully parametric EQ, limiting and compression plus metering and the ability to couple two together for stereo operation.
Audio Toys Incorporated [ATI] offered four, 1 x 4 balanced line-level DA's in a self powered 1 RU package. Two of the Rane's plus one of the ATI's provided the basis of a good stereo + mono monitoring system in only 3 RU including Stereo Left, Stereo Right and Mono DA's plus a spare 1 x 4 balanced line-level DA and you can never have too many good, solid, DA's when the press show up.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
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The guy that designed the PZM's for Crown, Bruce Bartlett, now has his own business and offers improved performance (quieter electronics mostly) of largely similar products. Look at www.bartlettaudio.com
 
Another vote for boundary mics at lip of stage. Unobtrusive to sight lines, easy to position and can be placed far closer to the action than other options. And closer to the action is the key to a better sounding recording.
The added bonus is that a good boundary mic typically has a far more neutral (flat) response than any shotgun mic.

You have to be careful with blanket statements like "any"... experience and skill can beat "any" hands down. You may not like shotgun microphones, but a good shotgun microphone is technically a better microphone than a PCC which is a very good standard stage boundary mic. Are boundary microphones an option? Of course, a good PZM is often a solid choice. But Another mixer could get the same or better recording with well placed good quality directional microphones too.

Using the right tools is half the battle, knowing how to use the tools will get you the win.
 
If we're talking about off-axis response, I'd say that "any" is accurate. I'm unaware of any shotgun mic that doesn't have polar patterns that vary radically with frequency. That's why our TV and film friends always have a boom operator, to ensure the mic is pointed right at the actors. Having several shotguns and actively mixing between them is a good approach to dealing with their characteristics, but that could be too much effort for making a documentary recording of a show. For doing that in the simplest way, I still say PZMs.
 
Although designed for something completely different, I've found measurement microphones work darn well! They have a slightly higher noise floor, but chances are ambient noise in the room will be well above that anyway. Although there are some expensive ones out there, the stupid Behringer ones actually turn out to be darn good. Inexpensive too! (about $60) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HT4RSA/?tag=controlbooth-20
Since they are very omni, you could hang them or put them on stands in the pit pointed up. Darn free of proximity effect so you don't get the rapid drop-off with distance that a cardioid will give you. Since it's not for live reinforcement, there is no feedback issues to deal with.
 
You have to be careful with blanket statements like "any"... experience and skill can beat "any" hands down. You may not like shotgun microphones, but a good shotgun microphone is technically a better microphone than a PCC which is a very good standard stage boundary mic. Are boundary microphones an option? Of course, a good PZM is often a solid choice. But Another mixer could get the same or better recording with well placed good quality directional microphones too.

Using the right tools is half the battle, knowing how to use the tools will get you the win.

As the manual will tell you, the Crown PCC-160 is *not* a boundary mic; it's a phase-coherent cardioid (Crown makes, or used to make the most common actual boundary mics as well.)
 
As the manual will tell you, the Crown PCC-160 is *not* a boundary mic; it's a phase-coherent cardioid (Crown makes, or used to make the most common actual boundary mics as well.)

That is also an important thing to note, but the PCC is very commonly used as a "microphone at the boundary" of a stage, though is not technically a boundary microphone. FMEng suggestion of a PZM is also a solid choice, I think it's clear there are several ways to do it... but what they can afford and what they can best use is going to be the real determining factor.
 

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