The above Ad will no longer appear after you Sign Up for Free!

Automated Fixtures Renting some Moving Lights

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by rochem, Dec 13, 2008.

  1. rochem

    rochem Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    221
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Hi all,

    For my school's spring musical, we are looking into renting some moving lights. The design is still in progress, but as of right now I think I want two spot fixtures and two wash fixtures hanging FOH. For the spots I'm leaning towards the VL1000TS to let it blend with the rig of Source Fours and for the zoom range. One thing I'm not sure about is the Internal Dimmer option. I was under the impression that most movers "dim" via DMX to the board, so I'm not exactly sure why you would need an internal dimmer and what you would need if you didn't have one. Which would you all recommend?

    I also want two wash fixtures hanging FOH as well. My ideal fixture here would be the MAC 2K but I have heard that it's usually best to stick with one manufacturer for a whole rig to match colors and such. Is this true, or is there no disadvantage to doing this? If it's true, what VL wash fixtures would you recommend? I've only ever used a MAC 2K for wash fixtures, so I'm not familiar with any of the VL washes.
     
  2. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

    Messages:
    4,078
    Likes Received:
    687
    Occupation:
    Controls Technician - TAIT Towers
    Location:
    Lititz, PA
    The difference between the internal dimmer VL1K and the VL1K without a dimmer is that the model with no dimmer requires power for the fixture AND a connection to one of your house dimmers. This option was designed so that you could match dimmer curves with all of your T/H fixtures, MLs and conventionals. The model with the internal dimmer only requires one power connection and has a built in dimmer. Simply put: the model with internal dimmer can be dimmed via DMX, the model without is dimmed via house dimmer.

    As for your question on wash fixtures, it really doesn't matter what fixtures you use. With some patience you can mix almost any color. Sure the CMY values won't be the same across brands, but they may not be exactly the same from fixture to fixture of the same model. Since you are trying to match an arc source to a T/H source it makes even less difference.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2008
  3. avkid

    avkid Not a New User Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    5,949
    Likes Received:
    225
    Occupation:
    Stageline Operator/Staging Supervisor
    Location:
    Howell, NJ
    DMX is a control protocol, not a means of dimming.

    I think you need to do more research before taking action.
    Possibly even hire a consultant.

    (I'm trying to be nice, and have rephrased this at least 4 times :neutral:)
     
  4. rochem

    rochem Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    221
    Location:
    New York, NY
    I put "dim" in quotes for a reason. When I say dim, I mean the light coming out of the fixture gets lower until finally nothing comes out. I suppose the correct term to use would have been "intensity". If I'm not mistaken, many (most?) movers are "dimmed" using the dimmer blades to block the light output, which is controlled through the board. And as such, plugging them into a normal dimmer would not end well.

    I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. Of course DMX is not a means of dimming. It is, however, the means by which information is sent from the board to things such as moving lights and scrollers, which is all I was saying. Am I wrong about this?
     
  5. rochem

    rochem Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    221
    Location:
    New York, NY
    That's what I suspected, thanks for the info. Since I'm relatively low on circuits in the FOH hanging position, I think it would make the most sense to use the internal dimmer to save on house dimmers. Are there any negatives to doing this (other than possibly a higher cost), or would it be basically the same?
     
  6. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

    Messages:
    4,078
    Likes Received:
    687
    Occupation:
    Controls Technician - TAIT Towers
    Location:
    Lititz, PA
    I already edited my first post, but let me clarify more. The VL1K with internal dimmer has a built in SCR dimmer that dims the lamp, much like the dimmers in your racks. This internal dimmer is controlled via DMX just like your dimmer racks.

    The VL1K without internal dimmer requires two connections to power. One should be a non-dim circuit that powers the fixture brains and motors. The other should go to a dimmable source and is only connected to the lamp. This allows you to dim the lamp on the same curve as the rest of your dimmers.

    Technically all of the above is controlled via DMX, the difference is where the actual dimming for the lamp in the fixture takes place.
     
  7. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

    Messages:
    4,078
    Likes Received:
    687
    Occupation:
    Controls Technician - TAIT Towers
    Location:
    Lititz, PA
    Wow, I can't keep up tonight. There are probably no real negatives, you probably wouldn't notice the difference in dimming curves, but some people do.
     
  8. avkid

    avkid Not a New User Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    5,949
    Likes Received:
    225
    Occupation:
    Stageline Operator/Staging Supervisor
    Location:
    Howell, NJ
    Correct, a mechanical system is used to dowse the light.

    I think it's time for me to shut up.:oops:
     
  9. Pie4Weebl

    Pie4Weebl Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    2,446
    Likes Received:
    342
    Location:
    New York City
    I am a big fan on the VL1000's for theatre and because of its great zoom capacity and frost wheel there is no reason you can't just use the VL's as both wash and spots.
     
  10. UMichLD

    UMichLD Member

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    I worked on a show 2 weeks ago with 4 VL 1k from FOH and 3 over the stage. I took one of the FOH VL's to its largest beam size and it washed the entire stage (Proscenium theatre 40' wide) while preserving a decent intensity while at full. The throw was probably around 15'.

    If it were my call, I'd get 4 VL's. That way, there are no worries about color matching or any of the other issues that come up when working with different brands. I'd put two from the front and two as backlight so that they're not competing when aimed at the same place. But that'd be dictated by the needs of the show.

    Good luck!
     
  11. Sony

    Sony Active Member

    Messages:
    856
    Likes Received:
    96
    Occupation:
    Freelance Electrician/Rigger
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Most movers use an Arc Light Source and not a Tungsten Source. Arc light sources cannot be dimmed so they have to use mechanical dimmers to dim (i.e. blades.) Tungsten sources are found in conventionals and can be dimmed with no issue. The VL1000TS that you are using is a Tungsten Source and therefore doesn't use blades to dim, it uses a conventional dimmer just like if you were to plug a Source 4 into a Sensor Rack. If you get the model with the internal dimmer then the dimmer is inside the base of the fixture and you don't need a module in your dimmer rack for it. If you chose the model without the internal dimmer then the fixture will have two tales coming out of it. One goes to a constant power source and is used to control the onboard electronics such as the motors and servo's. The other gets plugged into one of your dimmers and controls only the intensity of the lamp in the fixture. As Icewolf was saying, using this system allows you to match dimmer curves.

    To put this bluntly, (I lack the ability to be subtle anyways,) from the sound of it, you have never dealt with movers before...which makes me worry that you are in for quite a bit of a shock when you finally start to program them. Movers are almost an entirely different beast compaired to conventionals. Good luck to you ether way!
     
  12. beltsvillecrucib

    beltsvillecrucib Member

    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    0
    As far as the washlight issue goes, if you're not familiar with using any form of color temperature correction and are worried enough about the difference in CT to get a tungsten VL1k to match the conventionals, then I would recommend a VL500. You'll need an external dimmer, but the lights are a very solid design and create a beautiful pool of light.

    If you don't really care about how the arc lamps will look in relation to the rest of the rig being conventional, then it doesn't matter whether you get Mac2K's or VL or coemar or whatever. It's really up to you, your personal preference as designer. Personally I love the VL3K washes.
     
  13. rochem

    rochem Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    221
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Thanks for the info on the VL1000. I think getting 4 VL 1ks sounds like the best option, but we may end up going with a wash fixture for the other two.

    As some have guessed already, I've never designed a show with moving lights. My director at my school has his heart set on buying some moving lights for our high school theatre, and I'm doing my best to convince him that that is a bad idea. In the meantime, however, I think I have convinced him to rent first so we can try them out before spending lots of money on movers (he's very impulsive). I'm actually almost hoping that one of them breaks or does something weird while we have them. As for the programming, this will be my first experience with movers, however we will have ample time with the movers to allow me to learn and make mistakes. And also, the movers will be supplementing a strong rig of rented conventionals, so they will be acting as specials more than anything else. I'm designing it such that the show would be able to go on like normal even if none of the movers ever came on during the show.

    (For those wondering, our theatre program is actually a separate entity from the school, so we don't need district approval to buy stuff. The school gives us a budget every year, and they get a small percentage of ticket sales, but everything else goes in to/comes out of our separate account. I'm not entirely sure how it works, but it's something like that.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2008
  14. Sony

    Sony Active Member

    Messages:
    856
    Likes Received:
    96
    Occupation:
    Freelance Electrician/Rigger
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    What board do you have? If you have an ION or some other form of moving light board then you will be fine. However if you're running something from the ETC Expression series like an Express or something that wasn't meant to use movers then you're gonna have one heck of a time programming those VL1k's.

    If your teacher is adimant on buying moving lights then suggest something like an Apollo RightArm. They are much simpler and you can mount anything (up to 40lbs) on them.

    Apollo Design | Right Arm

    I have 4 RightArms at my college and I LOVE THEM!!! They are great, easy to use and easy to teach others to use.
     
  15. rochem

    rochem Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    221
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Our school has an Express 4896 currently, however we're planning to borrow an Ion for the show. I would really rather not have to program this show on the Express, especially since we only have 192 channels available.

    The Right Arm is a good thought, I hadn't thought of that. The main concern I have is their durability while being handled by inexperienced high school techs. Do they stand up pretty well, or are they as tempramental as most movers? And how are they from a programming standpoint on a board like an Express? One problem that comes to mind is that there's no way to adjust the shutters or the beam size or anything without buying other accessories like a scroller, a DMX iris, and some other toys. Do you have any of these toys on your fixture, or is it just the basic right arm?
     
  16. Sony

    Sony Active Member

    Messages:
    856
    Likes Received:
    96
    Occupation:
    Freelance Electrician/Rigger
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    We have the exact same board (Express 48/96), and I love programming the RightArm's on it, it's so easy! They are definitely more robust than your average moving head and much simpler too. Definitely not temperamental, I've never had a problem with them when programming or otherwise. We do have Scrollers and some Rotators that we can put in the fixtures on the Arm's and the great part about the RightArm's is they have 2 4-Pin accessory ports built into the arm itself so you can just plug a scroller and a DMX rotator directly into the arm itself. The arm has a built in PSU for that stuff so all you need to supply the arm with is straight DMX and it does everything else itself. The scrollers and stuff don't come with the arm, we have our own scroller that we use with the arm. Almost any Scroller except a couple certain ones like the Wybron ColorRam II's and CXI's don't with with the Apollo RightArm.
     
  17. Kelite

    Kelite Apollo Staff Premium Member

    Messages:
    2,072
    Likes Received:
    253
    Location:
    Fort Wayne IN, USA
    That is true rochem, but the ease/versatility of the Right Arm is a good reason to have them in the theater. When teamed with the new Apollo EZ Iris, beam angles are simply and quietly adjusted. Info will be on the website in coming days, just in case you'd like to see it...


    Apollo Design | Home
     
  18. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

    Messages:
    4,078
    Likes Received:
    687
    Occupation:
    Controls Technician - TAIT Towers
    Location:
    Lititz, PA
    EZ Iris? Really? Not the SmartIris or SmartSize to go along with all the other Apollo "Smart" Products?
     
  19. Kelite

    Kelite Apollo Staff Premium Member

    Messages:
    2,072
    Likes Received:
    253
    Location:
    Fort Wayne IN, USA
    Let's not go there right now......



    :wall:
     
  20. Pie4Weebl

    Pie4Weebl Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    2,446
    Likes Received:
    342
    Location:
    New York City
    beam angle =! beam size

    just sayin...
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice