Repair or buy new?

I had a little help from icanhascheezburger...
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I had a little help from icanhascheezburger...
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hey, if anyone has any of these that they don't want. Since the optics are SOOO horrible, I would take them off of your hands for free. Heck, I'll even pay shipping.
 
At my school, we are having a bunch of problems with our Ellipsoidals. We are using the altman 1KL series of fixtures. These fixtures are of varying degree measures. Recently, about half of these instruments are no longer operational, We have tried swapping bulbs, but this doesn't work. I believe that the sockets are to blame.
Which would be more likely to happen in a public school. Buying the necessary parts to repair these fixtures, or upgrading?

Gee, I don’t know, perhaps depends on the school. This by way of proper care in both senses and care for the fixtures and also upgrading as opposed to take them for all they are worth or give them what they can afford for such a question which is totally not related to safety or proper advice.

Perhaps how able to make them operational properly is your school is another valid question that can be assumed given the need to ask? Nothing against you in asking but in general, normally there is a system in place for those schools noting such things long before you note them, and that is the system that comes into question. For them at times, either those that can least afford throw the most money away in doing their thing, or those that can most afford trash what is easily fixed in fixing what is normal to fix. A few times in the center there is budget yes but also proper supervision in, yep it is not an optimum fixture but an easy repair that is cheap.

Read past posts on the subject of lamp base, lamp socket etc. in bad gear. Frequent type of thing and often easy to fix. On the other hand it requires proper supervision in doing it. If not, replacing the old gear with new gear would no doubt be better. I am sure many of the forum would take what you have in being better than what they have but being able to fix it.

Hope it helps, not mocking but very much a statement of schooling to date - very localized and not standardard no matter how many standardized tests are given per year. What some school distracts are provided with in funding is in no way similar in a similar way perhaps to math text books and teachers. That is bad. How can it be thought that the WASP subburb has a much more better tech person than mbandgeek that is in no way less qualified or able in becoming the next Bill Sapsis. This only by way of perhaps education and traing hampering him.

Quick answer, yes you can can change the lamp sockets and do throw away the bad before now tested lamps. Yes it is easy but on the other hand not something you can figure out on your own. This takes supervision and or at least sending the fixtures out to a qualified dealer to service for you. If not yes, new fixtures would be better if in budget.
 
they build towards in the next 5 years, base this on the need to conserve energy by using more efficient lamps, safety, no asbestos in new lamps and educational, students should learn and use current equipment[the computer people don't use commodore 64's]
Once your 5 year plan is agreed on, if some extra funds become available they can implement it earlier.Just complaining about old gear means nothing to a finance board.But they love a plan, a vision and all that stuff.


Five year plan is a good thing. More efficient lamps on the other hand is stating something not specified - could be they are already using efficient lamp that conserve energy. Asbestos was not mentioned in the origional post only later and with that... yep a bad thing.

Totally disagree with the concept of the commodore 64's. While it perhaps is no longer needed for people to learn DOS, it still is the primary operating system in a way that most other than gueek won't see yet is still there for those that fix stuff. Even I own a copy of "DOS for Dummies." Old lighting gear is much similar and often past discussed. People crying on the forum that their school doesn't buy the latest in moving light yet they don't know the difference between foot candle, candleabrella, lumen, lux amongst many things. McCandless option is old school, what we need to know is how to wiggle the lights as a concept in it being a wrong arguement for a educational setting. You master a light and an angle plust look, it don't matter what you learned with it transfers. You master it with older gear, often you both apriciate what you got and what you later have. Learn it with the new gear and old school stuff is often not as good or useful - just look at the posts above to confirm this. Art is art... was it only started to be made when the s-4 came to market?

Vision is a great concept and one to strive for. On the other hand vision should be realistic and a say five year plan with a long and short term plan accompanying it. These plans involve goals and necessary things such as lamp sockets, perhaps efficient lamps for what you now have and a few better things per year. This as opposed to this stuff is carp, lets just replace it all so we can trash something else as might be viewed as the case or even in this case the case.
 
hey, if anyone has any of these that they don't want. Since the optics are SOOO horrible, I would take them off of your hands for free. Heck, I'll even pay shipping.

mbandgeek, I cry myself to sleep thinking of these lights: tears stream down my pillow. My experience with them has been nothing but negative. Now if you are "graduating" from PC box spots, maybe I can see your point, but overall it has to be one of the worst (if not the worst) ERS manufactured by a major company in recent years.
 
At my school, we are having a bunch of problems with our Ellipsoidals. We are using the altman 1KL series of fixtures. These fixtures are of varying degree measures. Recently, about half of these instruments are no longer operational, We have tried swapping bulbs, but this doesn't work. I believe that the sockets are to blame.
Which would be more likely to happen in a public school. Buying the necessary parts to repair these fixtures, or upgrading?
Well, I don't know how your funding works there, but one thing I might suggest, that worked for the schools I went to, is reducing your inventory by replacing one or two systems at a time. For instance if your stage generally divides into 15 areas, try to add about 15 back lights or 30 of your front lights (plus a few couple extras for spares/specials). You then have a good deal more spares and parts to work with until you can afford to replace more down the road.
Also, the fact that source fours pull almost half the power might be enough to convince some higher ups somewhere that part or all of a new system is a good purchase without having to drain your department's money. Actually, you'll be using less then 1/2 the power because you'll need to keep your new source fours at about half intensity just to keep from blowing away those awful 1KLs. (Amber drift from the intensity difference can then be a problem, but usually it's manageable as long as people are aware of it ahead of time. )
 
In the immortal words:
"Bear in mind that old theatre lights are very close in performance to new ones and that, in lighting, quantity is more important than quality, so if the choice is to recondition 10 old lights or buy one new one, then the choice is clear."

Who was this immortal person that said such a thing in a designer to study. Nope... not me (I hope) but wish it was in great point for many concepts at least. Gee, if given a bunch of zooms could I design around them - not a fan of them persay... yep on the other hand. Art made on the other had, that is more a question of art than fixture perhaps.
 
Who was this immortal person that said such a thing in a designer to study. Nope... not me (I hope) but wish it was in great point for many concepts at least. Gee, if given a bunch of zooms could I design around them - not a fan of them persay... yep on the other hand. Art made on the other had, that is more a question of art than fixture perhaps.

Ship, if I understand your post correctly, then a lot of your argument falls into the a category of "what is or isn't art". It's a huge topic for debate. One should also look at what defines art then. Is it supposed to be aesthetically pleasing? Is it supposed to be self-expression? Does it serve another purpose?

The question is too big to be answered.
 
mbandgeek, I cry myself to sleep thinking of these lights: tears stream down my pillow. My experience with them has been nothing but negative. Now if you are "graduating" from PC box spots, maybe I can see your point, but overall it has to be one of the worst (if not the worst) ERS manufactured by a major company in recent years.

I have used such fixtures, even have a few rusted solid to play with in the future. Different, yes. Less efficient in my opinion of all zooms, yes. Compared to a radial fixture... don't know and doubt it. Nothing but negative, I kind of agree but on the other hand if that's what I have I would use them to the best of my ability and I suspect that would be a major difference in taking pride in what I have available = this plus PC box spots are also very useful - have them in my garage at the moment, nothing to say but totally cool in their low voltage MR-16 modified form.

All paint brushes and a paint brush is what you paint with not a measure of the artist painting.
 
McCandless option is old school, what we need to know is how to wiggle the lights as a concept in it being a wrong arguement for a educational setting. You master a light and an angle plust look, it don't matter what you learned with it transfers. You master it with older gear, often you both apriciate what you got and what you later have. Learn it with the new gear and old school stuff is often not as good or useful - just look at the posts above to confirm this. Art is art... was it only started to be made when the s-4 came to market?

I agree with you, but only up to a point. While repair skill is a valuable one, and probably should be some part of many programs, thats not what people are taking design classes for. Having to blow a huge amount of your time just trying to make shoddy equipment work when you could be spending that time improving your craft doesn't seem the best use of someone's time as a student (or a professional, for that matter).
 
I have used such fixtures, even have a few rusted solid to play with in the future. Different, yes. Less efficient in my opinion of all zooms, yes. Compared to a radial fixture... don't know and doubt it. Nothing but negative, I kind of agree but on the other hand if that's what I have I would use them to the best of my ability and I suspect that would be a major difference in taking pride in what I have available = this plus PC box spots are also very useful - have them in my garage at the moment, nothing to say but totally cool in their low voltage MR-16 modified form.
All paint brushes and a paint brush is what you paint with not a measure of the artist painting.

Ship, I recall us getting into this discussion before:

Just because that paint-brush is out there doesn't necessarily mean it should be used. There is something to be said for practicality and standardization. While I can see some fixtures making a come-back for a specialized reason I think the only people who'd ever spec that in a plot would be Noah, Derek and you. There is no reason to make PRG pull their hair out trying to find Noah some sort of 60 year old obscure limited run fresnel-soidal, or something. Besides, just because that "brush" is available in an educational environment doesn't mean it will be encountered again, and would be an effective tool for training, in any form except conceptually. The OP shouldn't have to pull double duty as ME and LD. He should be painting and learning with his "brushes", not trying to keep the bristles attached!
 
I agree with you, but only up to a point. While repair skill is a valuable one, and probably should be some part of many programs, thats not what people are taking design classes for. Having to blow a huge amount of your time just trying to make shoddy equipment work when you could be spending that time improving your craft doesn't seem the best use of someone's time as a student (or a professional, for that matter).

Nothing about repair skill on this thought - though I would challange you to cite how keeping new gear running is any different than keeping old gear going of the same class. Hmm, mac 600 verses VL-3K... similar problems often? As I remember this general concept, making shoddy equipment work was a primary goal of Full Sail in training tech people to repair moving lights. Instructor would do something to a fixture in a way simlar to during lawn mower repair basic auto shop in high school, the instructor would do something and you would fix it. Them is the people even trained in the 90's that excell in fixture repair, not those that have so much that could go wrong they often are set back. Inkie 2 perhaps as a trained repair tech. and having worked in the field on both old and near if still posting on the website could be possibly the most qualified to answer such a question of if old gear troublesooting is similar to near gear troubleshooting. I expect not much a difference overall.

Best use of ones time is learning the trade. Don't matter if old or new, what concepts do you take with you no matter where you go and with what ever gear you learned such things on? Such stuff as Lincoln what angle to light him at to look ghostly or godly or evil? Beyond this, what you play with in school won't matter in the industry because by the time you get out of school, spend time paying your dues in slinging cable - err learning how to coil cable and or wire a multi-pin plug properly... what you used in school is going to be old school anyway especially given what you had to play with. Heck... the Mac 2K fixture is already considered ancient and is TBA for an upgrade and total replacement in the industry. On the other hand, what goes wrong with the Mac 2K is much like most often what goes wrong with a Mac 600 in learning a basic concept. That as similar to a Leko is a Leko as a Fresnel is a Fresnel and not a PAR can.
 
Ship, I recall us getting into this discussion before:
Just because that paint-brush is out there doesn't necessarily mean it should be used. There is something to be said for practicality and standardization. While I can see some fixtures making a come-back for a specialized reason I think the only people who'd ever spec that in a plot would be Noah, Derek and you. There is no reason to make PRG pull their hair out trying to find Noah some sort of 60 year old obscure limited run fresnel-soidal, or something. Besides, just because that "brush" is available in an educational environment doesn't mean it will be encountered again, and would be an effective tool for training, in any form except conceptually. The OP shouldn't have to pull double duty as ME and LD. He should be painting and learning with his "brushes", not trying to keep the bristles attached!

My fiencee says in reading the post and also being a qualified both Leko and moving light prep person says "wanna be lighting designers, wanna be lighting yet I don't know how to bench focus a Leko."

Almost got her to post and reply with her own thoughts. Still the designer has lots of chances to view the latest and greatest product. Hmm, Ushio Follow spot... want to see it... just got to mention it and if a designer worth the effort you can play test it even if not in America yet. Designers don't have a problem in going modern, often their limitiation is either making what they learned as useful transfer to new as is at times the case for their own limitation, or in making what they want transfer to what they get which is the production company challenge. Big difference between the designer that is limited and designer that knows what they want specifically. No amount of new gear will change that, nor will experience with new gear to start change a designer to qualified to use it properly. On the other hand, teach the basics in my opinion and you have Intellabeams still in use on world tours, not just because it is what is requested by the designer but because it is what they asked for. Qualified to question that?

My thoughts... hmm and when did the beam projector become popular again? One for years will have thought it obsolete, yet than because of its uniqueness not only did it come back by way of design requirement but Wybron Chroma Q came out with the BP-2 which is now very popular in having a non-S-4 lamp but at TP-22 type lamp type highly efficient lamp back to such a concept as similar to the HES Studio Command in using a also Leko lamp that is Leko usable.

They are designers, they are like cats in being insane and one should not question such a thing or preference if one wishes to excell. Art don't matter to science. Once had to do a study of what what ever lamp or fixture type most closely matched that to a laser beam when such a thing was to be counter top mounted in projecting up for the focused beam of light, and by the way what fog, haze or smoke machine would also be best off in making that beam of light be seen. This much less one would not believe what stuff I currently work on but as said to me, the designer/client aint' going to understand that by chance the internal to the lamp mica reflector is hitting its heat sensing switch - just change lamps to something that don't reflect at a 1:100 chance it will hit it or shake the light so it dont', he has paid thousands of dollars for you to solve that problem, solve it.

Hmm, internal reflector on a screw based lamp just by chance hitting a heat sensor I had thought in already moving that focus out of the way hit it again. Na, nothing sheer problems solving such as +/- 15 degree angle to a lamp operating position perhaps playing a factor in why one moving light fixture was very popular for a short while and cost the industry thousands of dollars in lamps, yet within a year became upgraded to something quickly different. This than as nothing similar to the next big popular lighting fixture using a lamp with the same burn position to horizontal which experiences much the same problems. What is the difference between some Colemar cyc like eight years ago and some Zap Big light from like a year ago?

Past experience? In lamps alone I cannot detect any differences in failure between that of a last year VL-3K lamp and Mac 2K lamp from like eight years ago in using the same lamp. Similar fixtures and similalr upgrades but for all intensive purposes what cases a VL-3K fixture to fail, is what causes a Mac 2K fixture to fail.

This granted I don't service moving lights but work with those who do and could easily confirm it with those that do the factory service center types about what they would start troubleshooting on a fixture no matter Mac 600 or modern. Sure there is differences but fix one and understand it and you have some very useful concept in fixing the next. As with Lekos, fix or design with one and it transfers. This unless those that learned such as I did with Radial Lekos or even second generation Lekos and stuf are no longer qualified to design with new gear.

For me it it more a concept in having been proven. Guys such as me that is for the most part ever to design with a S-4 fixture or moving light in other than self-test mode which someone else programmed for me, are we qualified to or obsolete now thus given we didn't go to school with such things? Can only those that go to school with modern stuff design these days, or is there some paint brush = despised by some but general concept that is a workable concept no matter what one paints with. After all, the movie West Side Story.... who designed it, what before halogen or mover was it done with, yet was it art? Someone fresh out of a school and up on the latest design crap toys verses her as a designer trained personally by McCandless, who would get the design gig?

Ain't about what brush used, its talent and technique no matter what tools applied.

This my opinion perhaps but I just don't see an alternative to training and technique over toys and wiggle to compensate for talent and experience no matter where its from. This also given the top designers I work with did also come from the radial Leko days and days when a PAR can was a can. They know the modern fixture - one can be assured that every manufacturer gives a free play test to them in knowing that if they spec such a thing they will use it. On the other hand, just as much as with going the next Versa Tube creation, they also are doing something old school from their past that fits and that's important to also know in anything from prop light locational Fresnel now that is Led based to marquee lights to beam projector for the look.

That desired look is the power of design in creation. Don't matter the tools it is what you create in conveying your image. Just today I had a designer ask for a lighted closet rod fixture from one company so as to solve his display booth project for some famous guitars. Just so happens in one project that wouldn't have fixtures available on time for the goose neck audience blinder project that I was looking thru that catalog this morning and remembered such a solution. Perfect for the next lighting problem. Imagine a lit closet rod for solvoing a problem with lighting a kiosk? This much less the next problem a fluorescent lamp that don't attract bugs.... wasn't aware that they did in the first place, this much less in a 32w T-8 size, there is no such thing other than as concept UV resistant covered lamps, gold lamps and gold lamps that are covered.

Designer has a problem, not old or new school, more the combination that has the advantage. Certainly in the past year I have created lighting fixtures that are straight out of the 1920's for how they were done even still eighty years later. Solder splice... sure done it, works well for certain applications.

As a designer in mastering a plot and using the fixtures available to their greatest advantage, what is easier, that of who has experience with say some radial Lekos and Zooms or that of the designer that has experienced with movers and S-4's. For one it is heaven for the other hell.
 
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Ship, we appear to have wandered way off-topic. Expect a PM shortly.

Now to return this thread to it's regular programming.
 
My name was mentioned, so I feel obligated to at least say something. However it's midterms and I'm busy and can't devote the hour to a well planned response. Check back later.
 
mbandgeek, I cry myself to sleep thinking of these lights: tears stream down my pillow. My experience with them has been nothing but negative. Now if you are "graduating" from PC box spots, maybe I can see your point, but overall it has to be one of the worst (if not the worst) ERS manufactured by a major company in recent years.

Yes, compared to a source 4 with a high definiton lens tube these light may seem like a load of crap, but please consider. Just because you do not like a particular model of light, doesn't mean that said lights should be just deemed as crap. Frankly I am quite offended. This is the equipment that i have learned on, I have put on many shows with these lights.

I try to think of it this way, if i learn on and make do with less then "perfect" equipment, That will only mean that i am that much more capable to get around obstacles. I feel that my training on these lights have made me a much better lighting tech then the average high school technician. I can walk into a space and jump right around the little obstacles and continue with the production. In my book A stage light is a stage light; hang it, focus it, and get on with the show.
 
Ship, I recall us getting into this discussion before:
Just because that paint-brush is out there doesn't necessarily mean it should be used. There is something to be said for practicality and standardization. While I can see some fixtures making a come-back for a specialized reason I think the only people who'd ever spec that in a plot would be Noah, Derek and you. There is no reason to make PRG pull their hair out trying to find Noah some sort of 60 year old obscure limited run fresnel-soidal, or something. Besides, just because that "brush" is available in an educational environment doesn't mean it will be encountered again, and would be an effective tool for training, in any form except conceptually. The OP shouldn't have to pull double duty as ME and LD. He should be painting and learning with his "brushes", not trying to keep the bristles attached!

Ultimately it comes down to appreciating what you have. I would rather be seen as someone that can use any Spot on the market, then someone who freaks out at the sight of older gear.

oh and by the way, my brushes are the 1Kl's and i will defend them until the day i die.
 
Ultimately it comes down to appreciating what you have. I would rather be seen as someone that can use any Spot on the market, then someone who freaks out at the sight of older gear.

oh and by the way, my brushes are the 1Kl's and i will defend them until the day i die.

My main brushes in high school were 30 year old Strand R40 strips and 6" fresnels of the same vintage. And I'll still defend them.

Now charc - think about this - what if your school didn't have access to the foh pipes, your lights were much older, you had a crapbox 5000X as your light board, and only 32 dimmers, only 20 of which worked...what then? I made some great looks with that system, and I learned so much.
 
Yes, compared to a source 4 with a high definiton lens tube these light may seem like a load of crap, but please consider. Just because you do not like a particular model of light, doesn't mean that said lights should be just deemed as crap. Frankly I am quite offended. This is the equipment that i have learned on, I have put on many shows with these lights.
I try to think of it this way, if i learn on and make do with less then "perfect" equipment, That will only mean that i am that much more capable to get around obstacles. I feel that my training on these lights have made me a much better lighting tech then the average high school technician. I can walk into a space and jump right around the little obstacles and continue with the production. In my book A stage light is a stage light; hang it, focus it, and get on with the show.

I'm quite familiar with the 1KL6 series, I have 20 in the air right now on the mainstage, an additional 4-6 in the air in the secondary space, plus 4-6 more in the inventory. I can complain about them and still work effectively with them, can't I?

A stage light isn't a stage light. Don't get Greenia's history lesson in here. Don't be offended. I too have learned primarily on the 1KL6 series. I can't say it's helped me much. The first time I encountered a S4 it took me near 15 minutes to figure out the gel-frame clip. :mrgreen:

Awh, lighten up mbandgeek.
 

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