Replacing Church Architectural System

Lumaur

Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2019
Location
PA
Hi Everyone,

We are in the midst of obtaining bids to replace our outdated lighting system in our church. We currently have a LeHigh DX2 system with a Collage touch 500 programmable touchpad (broken), 2 wall button stations with 8 buttons and an IR Remote. My first choice is ETC Paradigm, but another company insists on bidding Lutron Grafik Eye 4000. I need the system to include remote capability (iPad app, not IR) and a programmable touch pad. In your opinion, which would be the better system? I sure appreciate your response. Thank you in advance!
 

MNicolai

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Can you provide a more detailed description of what level of control you are expecting from the system and which fixture zones and types you will be controlling?

If you're primarily talking about lights on/off/dim for architectural fixtures, Paradigm is a sledgehammer when all you're looking to pound are finishing nails. Even with a small or moderate entertainment fixtures control included, Paradigm is overkill given how many other options there are on the market including others from ETC's own catalog.

Without knowing more about your goals, I would suggest you look more at EchoTouch as far as ETC's catalog goes and I think Pathway has a similar type product, Vignette. Either would be far more price competitive to Lutron and other options. If you have people bidding Grafik Eye against Paradigm, someone's eventually going to ask what tangible benefits you're gaining for those additional many thousands of dollars.
 
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Rob

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Jun 10, 2009
Location
On a river near Toronto
Thanks for the shout out @MNicolai
If Echo doesn't suit your needs, please have a look at Vignette. Check out the video link on that page. Mechanically and electrically they are versatile; they can control up to four universes (per playback) and the granularity of the control is great (priorities, priority override, merging, yeilding, hold, lockout, astro-clock, Title 1.81.26 compliant) and Vignette works well with our gateways or others. If you need a name of an integrator in PA, PM me.
 

Lumaur

Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2019
Location
PA
Can you provide a more detailed description of what level of control you are expecting from the system and which fixture zones and types you will be controlling?

If you're primarily talking about lights on/off/dim for architectural fixtures, Paradigm is a sledgehammer when all you're looking to pound are finishing nails. Even with a small or moderate entertainment fixtures control included, Paradigm is overkill given how many other options there are on the market including others from ETC's own catalog.

Without knowing more about your goals, I would suggest you look more at EchoTouch as far as ETC's catalog goes and I think Pathway has a similar time product,(edit: Vignette). Either would be far more price competitive to Lutron and other options. If you have people bidding Grafik Eye against Paradigm, someone's eventually going to ask what tangible benefits you're gaining for those additional many thousands of dollars.
Thank you for your insight. One of the bids we are currently waiting for will be Echo Touch and the other will be Paradigm. I will be curious to see the differences based on our needs. You have given me some good food for thought here and I appreciate it!!
 

Lumaur

Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2019
Location
PA
Thanks for the shout out @MNicolai
If Echo doesn't suit your needs, please have a look at Vignette. Check out the video link on that page. Mechanically and electrically they are versatile; they can control up to four universes (per playback) and the granularity of the control is great (priorities, priority override, merging, yeilding, hold, lockout, astro-clock, Title 1.81.26 compliant) and Vignette works well with our gateways or others. If you need a name of an integrator in PA, PM me.
Thank you for this! I will definitely have to take a look. I did not know Vignette existed. I'll pass this information along.
 

BillConnerFASTC

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Jan 30, 2010
Location
Clayton NY 13624
I have found the incurable problem with Lutron and some other systems is the inability to flex and change configuration over time. It's going to be like it is the day it's installed and God forbid you want to change it. Also, it doesn't play nice with DMX.

Both Pathways Vignette and ETCs Echo will provide a basic system. Paradigm adds a lot of function for some cost. And some of the choice should be based on what you want it to control as others have stated.
 

TheaterToMe

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Nov 30, 2015
Location
SF Bay Area, CA
I agree with the sentiment that Paradigm is probably too overkill for this situation. Without more information on your specific needs (complexity + number of scenes required) it's hard to make a good recommendation.
 

rsmentele

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I would also throw Interactive Tech's Cue Server. Their products are SOLID, and are end user programmable, something not possible with ETC....
 

FMEng

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I would also throw Interactive Tech's Cue Server. Their products are SOLID, and are end user programmable, something not possible with ETC....
Broken web page.

Update: The page loads now, so I must have caught it at the wrong moment. It looks like an intriguing product line.
 
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lwinters630

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May 12, 2011
Location
west of Chicago
but another company insists on bidding Lutron Grafik Eye 4000.
I have found it best for me to determine the product first then get apples to apples quotes. They insist because that's all they rep.

I've used Grafik Eye in a venue for 20yrs and could not get it into dmx. Very poor support.

Also ETC has the worlds best support. One call and problem solved.
 

BillConnerFASTC

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Jan 30, 2010
Location
Clayton NY 13624
Which besides Paradigm has the wifi and app capability that the OP said was a requirement? Echo has a Bluetooth app, but not sure if that would work - if trancievers could be located where it's needed.

@Rob - what does vignette do for wireless remote?
 
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Rob

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Jun 10, 2009
Location
On a river near Toronto
Vignette doesn't have its own wireless solution. It can hook up to SixEye, which is intended for Remote Monitoring and Management. Obviously this works in the same room as the system, but it does go to the cloud and back. It's fast (~1s) but it's a subscription service (annual fee) and not ideal for local management.

Our more advanced system Choreo has wall stations called NSB. This does support remote control via WiFi and it much more capable than Vignette; cue lists, effects, 16-bit fades, Natural Language Control, multi-level priorities, etc. etc. Here is a comparison of each. If you want to know more about Choreo, watch the Cognito training videos. It's the same OS.