Rigging Questions

jwl868 said:
The one question I thought I could answer…

410) Which pipe is not measured the same as the rest of the pipe: Schedule 40 black pipe, PVC, Pneumatic, EMT, RMT, Aluminum, Galvanized, or Schedule 80?
..........


(But I still don't know what RMT is...)

Joe

Yes you are correct, but the difference is structural tubing as opposed to other forms of tubing. You can get a Sch.40 aluminum, but for most rigging in the entertainment industry, what is used is a structural tubing which is measured by it's OD. Steel structural tubing such as a post would also take this measurement as a sort of primary measurement, but it's not used for tubing much. I believe this is a key differenence though your stipulations are also correct.

RMT is a electrical conduit like water pipe but "Ridgid Metallic Tubing" and with different makeup in materials and application. Can't use water pipe for wires, but for a thick walled conduit, RMT is the norm.
 
ricc0luke said:
500) Stop it? We are talking about “Bouncing the main” for say a second or third applause are we not? I’m thinking body weight here.

When you say that I realized my mistake... I was talking aboyt something else entirely...

Bouncing the main is when the house curtain comes down and immediatly goes back up for curtain call, or just after curtain call for an encore.

jwl868- Great info on pipe verses tube

for #475 ship... is it something along the line of that on a normal nut you can't easily examine the theads to see what condition they are in?

and the size nut on a 1/8" crosby... Ooo it's somthing like 3/8" or 1/2"? I don't remember this... Nico press is a beautiful thing... and I always just find the one that fits... I guess I'm not quite as sofistacated.

Nice save, and kind of an art in bouncing the main is it not?

One of them don't try this at home type of things - you want to really really screw up your fly system, attempt this improperly type of thing. Steel flying down from the grid and bent arbors can realistically be the least of one's problems. Very dangerous unless trained in this technique.

On the other hand, nothing like a puddle of drape that retracts in a fast way similar to how it came in. Nothing like body weight in flying up a few feet with the rope, than it stopping and reversing than going up just as fast as it came down. This by way of once your feet hit the deck, you are pulling that main like a madman in speed to get it flown out. Than again your body weight if not also using a lock for a break to slow it down before it crashes. This is an extreme use of a fly system and your gear is probably not set up for attempting this art in saying it again.

Of note is not to try this at home without very good training and gear that is well maintained if not even set up for doing this in having at least for the main a larger head and foot block plus other features.

475) Yep, or at least to the best of my understanding of it. Did read the mention of it somewhere thus the question. Replace not chance something as cheap as a bolt. Doing rigging on the cheap is while oxymorion as a given also something one has to stick to one's guns on in doing it correctly or not at all by yourself and an important fight to pick. Places you use alloy or grade 8, places you use grade 5 by design.

I'm no longer really qualified to be rigging stuff - too many years in the past for me. That's a realistic asscessment of my current abilities and keeping in touched with current methods or concepts. I might note stuff but don't do rigging on the whole. Best qualified for who else is around also scares the heck out of me given proper training on my part but also at some point finding myself responsible and liable for being a Master Rigger - a few years back in a theater, it's what I studied to an extreme once given the responsibilty. What has been done in the past was not acceptable once understood and I thought unsafe to continue doing.

Intent for these and all questions above is a reality check to make those that are the most useful or able to find the need to now once by default finding themselfs a master of something, realize they are master of nothing and often endangering others. That's a bad thing when one does not know but thinks himself some expert by way of to the best of one's peers - or at least all that is left of the brain trust in the theater group. This especially if on some form of power trip. I'm the TD... yet not qualified to be so. In small shows, those TD's that are more master carpenter than TD I cringe at in title.

If nothing else in my messages from when I joined this group to now, Master of stuff is very questionable in constant study and doing your best. The title no matter what should be less something one wishes for but instead given experience and who is available the best one can do with constant study and reality in what one does not know but does focus on and do to the best one can and has learned from.

At least these days one can ask on the net, E-Mail Bill Sapsis directly and others and read books or attend classes and rigging seminars on the subject. Those I often learned from were all playing the telephone game with those before them that date back to the 19th century. Each progressive group found new methods but also forgot in reason for or detail for getting something done that is important to pass on. By the time a 10th generation rigger gets trained, one does not nor would be expected to have the full concept in hand, not because of them but because teacher upon teacher has changed things over the years a wee bit and by the time such details reach you, they are often much different than the actual intent.

For rigging, don't get complacent in one's experience nor training, and especially don't settle upon being all that's left in a realistic way. If rigger, just as lamp expert as it were is more my profession, you should know that fleet angle of the block off the top of your head and other stuff. Much more stuff. Short of knowing this as the "Master" one excells at nothing and in complaciency endangers others. This is the message here.

Never stop studying, and if put in charge of something, realize your limitations and worry about that which you don't understand or know. Study into it and all and ask about. Do your best but also realize the volume of this to which you know or don't. If Master of something you can do but don't know all the way, that's a sorry situation in risking lives.
 
That bouncing the main thing sounds alot like what you do when you fly people! It is very graceful, and fun to do as well! The system I flew Pan on had a 3:2 pulley advantage (which was nice, considering I weigh the same as the girl who played him) so I had to go really far and fast on the moves. For example, I had to pull the rope 15' to get her up 10' (which meant jumping off a 12' ladder) and then to land her smoothly had to jump up and get pulled by the rope back up to 12' then let go and land silently. One maneuver that sounds identical to bouncing the main requires you to fly up on the rope as the other end goes down, then pull hard to abruptly head back down to the ground, pulling the other end back up again. Very physically demanding, very exhillarating.

<hr>

I have a question:

What is the best way to hang a large triangular flat, and which point supports the most weight? It is supposed to be a roof, so it points up. It's made of standard construction wooden flats.
 
Radman... a standard construction of a large triangle flat? is there really a standard for that? It's ok, I know what you mean... :)

I would say 2 line... cut the triangles in thirds... the line should go on the 2 cuts... you a bottom iron because you are definatly going to want to support the bottom, and use top irons as well to keep it upright.

You might be able to get away with just top hanging it with 2 lines, but most college and professional theatre's will mandate that it be bottom hung.
 
Woah, that didn't make any sense to me for some reason.
 
That bouncing the main thing sounds alot like what you do when you fly people! It is very graceful, and fun to do as well! The system I flew Pan on had a 3:2 pulley advantage (which was nice, considering I weigh the same as the girl who played him) so I had to go really far and fast on the moves. For example, I had to pull the rope 15' to get her up 10' (which meant jumping off a 12' ladder) and then to land her smoothly had to jump up and get pulled by the rope back up to 12' then let go and land silently. One maneuver that sounds identical to bouncing the main requires you to fly up on the rope as the other end goes down, then pull hard to abruptly head back down to the ground, pulling the other end back up again. Very physically demanding, very exhillarating.

No... not what you do when properly flying people. You should never have to jump off a 12ft ladder. There are several mistakes here... number one being that when ever you are flying a person no matter the mechanical advantage you should always have someone who at least one and a half times the weight of the person flying person. This is when it is a good thing to be a little heavy set. And... normally there is alittle more than a 3:2 ratio.

And ship... I do have some rather fond memories bouncing the main...
At Krannert Center at U of I... We would bounce the main... That was by far the thickest and heaviest curtain I have ever seen. There were 2 of us working on the fly rail... Once, I hit my head on the next gallery (about 8' up from our level) because the line had pulled me up... Yea... definatly not something everyone should try. And not something ment for every rigging system. Though if you know how to, and your system can handle it, man is it an interesting experience.
 
We had ZFX design the system. The lines for the other kids were just straight through, 1:1 ratio. All the help they got was just the 5 odd pounds more the rope end weighed than the wire end. I actually wasn't going to fly that show at all, but none of the people they had lined up could operate the system as well as I could so they asked me to run it. I wish I was heavier, I actually was gaining a little weight by eating constantly, and I wore steel toe boots to help with the weight as well. I think fully suited up I weighed 15-20 puonds more than her. And maybe there's a better way to fly, but the show looked great so what we did worked for us.
 
To follow up on # 411:

411) What is the difference between 1/4" NPT, 1/4" NF, and 1/4" NC nuts?

NPT is "National Pipe Taper" (and often identified as "National Pipe Thread"), but I've never seen the original document/standard (I think its American National Standards Institute [ANSI]). In any case, it is a USA system, and the joint is a tapered joint. I've seen it used in piping components – pipe, fittings, valves, etc. It is not compatible with NC and NF.

There are also non-tapered, straight threaded pipe standards (such as NPSM [National Pipe Straight Mechanical]). And there are separate British systems, like British Standard Pipe Taper (BSPT) which is not compatible with the US system.



Joe
 
Christ, it looks like someone got ahold of the ESTA exam!
 
Note the asking date of the candy question before one infers such a thing. On the other hand, is what asked similar in something I have not seen?

You are for the most part correct in that I did get ahold of or say take notes from some books on the subject of rigging and or class/lecture notes on the subject and base my questions off them. To the best of my knowledge at the time, what questions asked were of my understanding of the base question in concept but my own in re-asking however.

Intent is the same however, questions meant to challenge and provide some base to gauge what further study to do with.

With at name like "what rigger" perhaps you will attempt to answer some of them? Granted it's been many years for me since I last read much on rigging much less done it and what one does not actively use, one tends to forget, so it might be more or a commuinty yea or ney in answer.
 
ricc0luke: "No... not what you do when properly flying people. You should never have to jump off a 12ft ladder. There are several mistakes here... number one being that when ever you are flying a person no matter the mechanical advantage you should always have someone who at least one and a half times the weight of the person flying person. This is when it is a good thing to be a little heavy set. And... normally there is alittle more than a 3:2 ratio."
_________________________________________________



Actually, jumping off ladders, ledges, and other high points is quite common in flying people. Ask the Foy's, ZFX's, Hall Associates', etc...To get a performer up quickly- window flight, audience flight, etc..-especially on a 1:1, and even on a 3:2 requires a ladder and stepping off. Proper technique isn't really a "jump" off as much as it is a STEP off, so as not to knock the ladder out of your ladder spotters hands. To do a window flight, it is physically impossible to lift a performer of any weight off the deck without coming down from the ladder.

A 3:2 ratio for flying systems is actually quite common. Your most commonly found fly system ratio's for Pan and Oz are 3:2, 1:1, and 2:1 (in no particular order) depending on the weight of the actors/objects to be flown and what you want them to look like in the air/how fast do you want to go. And the 3:2 ratio, etc...is what gets you around having to "outweigh" your actor. There are also variatons in rigging a 3:2 with inline weights that will help your advantage. I'm 200lbs, and I've flown a 200lb actor on a 3:2 with absolutely no problems because I've rigged it to work the way it needs to work.

After 3 years of flying manually and with full automation, 80 productions of Peter Pan, 30 Oz's, and a few other oddballs and one-offs...I love me some ladder! Curious as to where you got your information from.


And hey, Ship...if you want (almost) every answer ever, and happen to have $100 bucks laying around, go check out Harry Donovan's book:"Entertainment Rigging". Ohmydearlord!
 
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And hey, Ship...if you want (almost) every answer ever, and happen to have $100 bucks laying around, go check out Harry Donovan's book:"Entertainment Rigging". Ohmydearlord!

High up on my to buy book list but in front of it at the moment is more on DMX and Ethernet. Somehow with every tour no matter how much I try, I still keep getting put in the middle of if for noting else than buying the parts for and making the components to house the from wireless to ethernet gear. Suppose that while I refuse to repair ethernet cable, it's time for me to learn more about it given with time it will in the end be me doing the repairs.

For rigging on the other hand, Arena Rigging in addition to Entertainment Rigging also by Donovan would be another good text for me to buy. Still I have studied in depth Stage Rigging Handbook, Wire Rope Users Manual, various field manuals on military rigging and various books on both engineering and repelling. This in addition to some key parts of while I did not attend the class, parts of Donovan's seminar hand out class notes from those that did. All texts and personal experience was what I base the questions off this given questions based upon my own wording of the extent I understood what I was reading expressed in the questions.


Stuff I'll do, stuff I won't, stuff I did in the past I won't do now. Lots I did in the past I forget the details on now that I’m not.
 
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Ever tried getting ahold of Rock n' Rescue? Or maybe Ropeworks. Your tasks seem right up their alley. It looks like I'm going to Ropeworks school in a couple of months for rope-access training (i.e. everything from fall arrest to abseiling to rescue), and other co-workers have gotten much good info from them. They are, as the kids say "the shizzn*t".
www.ropeworks.com
www.rocknrescue.com

And apparantly "Arena Rigging" has been absorbed into "Entertainment Rigging", (both authored by Donovan)
 
Kind of thought one was absorbed by the other but did not check the dates. Thanks. Rock n' Rescue sounds great. With time I'm working with the shop stewert to get more people trained and rescue would probably be good. I assume Rock n' Rescue is about fall protection and rescue from it.

I don't have either book's info in my book list. Can you PM me the author, ISBN and a short review to add them to my running list of texts?

So far in Rigging/Repelling I have: (Any fill in the blanks like author and ISBN where not listed or other books you can give would also be helpful of those books I know of.)

Aluminum Structures in the Entertainment Industry by Peter Hind.
Arena Rigging: A guide for Riggers, Designers and Managers, - (no notes if it's the same as the Donovan book or anything else about it.)
Arena Rigging, by Harry Donovan
The Art of Knotting and Splicing, by Cyrus L. Day ISBN: 12-01-99-1702
Ashley Book of Knots'
CMC Rescue Manual, 3rd. Ed., edited by James a Frank; CMC Rescue, Inc. - Santa Barbara CA. 1998 ISBN: 0-96183337-7-7
The Complete Rigger's Apprentice" by Brion Toss
Entertainment Rigging: A Practical Guide for Riggers, Designers and Managers, by Harry Donovan
ESTA’S Standard for Construction and Use of Wire Rope Ladders, ISBN: 12-09-99-3008
Guide to Knots, by Mario Bigon and Guido Regazzoni
H.A.R.T. Book, by Tom Vines and Steve Hudson
Handbook of Knots, by Des Pawson; Dorling Kindersley Ltd. 1998. ISBN:0-7894-2395-2
Handbook for Riggers, By W.G. Newberry; Newberry Investments Co. LTD. - Alberta Canada 1989 ISBN: 0-9690154-1-0
Handbook of Rigging for Construction and Industrial Operations, 4th ed. W.E. Rossnagel; McGraw Hill - N.Y. 1988.
Introduction to Fall Protection 2nd Ed., by J. Nigel Ellis, (228 pages) ISBN: 12-01-99-4970
An Introduction to Rigging in the Entertainment Industry, By Chris Higgs Royston. Entertainment Technology Press Ltd. Hertfordshire 2002, ISBN: 1-904031-12-9
The Klutz Book of Knots, by John Cassidy; Klutz Press - Palo Alto, CA. 1985 ISBN: 0-932592-10-4
Knots, R.D. Laing; Penguin 1970.
Knots, by Peter Owen, Chartwell Books 1996, ISBN: 0-7858-0575-3.
Knots, by Brian Toss; Hearst Marine Books 1990, ISBN: 0-688-09415-5.
The Morrow Guide to Knots and Splices, by Mario Bigon and Guido Regazzoni
Mountaineering, 6th Edition Ed. by Don Graydon; The Mountaineers - Seattle, WA. 1997 ISBN: 0-89886-426-7
On Rope, by Bruce Smith; National Speleological Society Inc. - Huntsville, AL. 1996 ISBN: 1-879961-05-9
Rappelleing, by Tom Martin (304 pages) ISBN: 12-01-99-3202
Rigging, TM 5-725 Headquarters, Department of the Army, - Washington, D.C. 1968
Rigging for Entertainment: Regulations and Practice, Chris Higgs
Rope Log; Rescue Systems, Inc.
Self Rescue, by David J Fasulo; Chockstone Press, Inc. - Evergreen, CO. 1996 ISBN: 0-934641-97-8
Splicing Wire and Fiber Rope", Raoul Graumont and John Hensel,, Cornell Maritime Press, Centreville, Maryland, 1945 ISBN 0-87033-118-3
The Splicing Book, by Wellington Puritan (36 pages) ISBN: 12-01-99-3207
Stage Rigging Handbook, 2nd Ed. by Jay O. Glerum; Southern Illinois University Press - Carbondale Il. 1997 ISBN: 0-8093-1744-3
Swiftwater Rescue, by Slim Ray
Wire Rope Sling Users Manual, by The American Iron and Steel Industry ISBN: 12-01-99-3003
Wire Rope Users Manual, 3rd Ed. Wire Rope Technical Board - Woodstock MD. 1993
 
I just had to throw in my 2 cents worth on the RMT. The present 2005 National Electrical Code uses the designation of RMC for Rigid Metal Conduit. The major difference from water pipe is the specified surface on the inside which is intended to prevent damaging the insulation on the conductors in the conduit. I have never investigated to know if the other physical specifications are similar to Galvanized Pipe but do know that the same threading (NPT) is used.

The only other electrical products listed in the code that currently use tubing in the name are EMT- Electrical Metallic Tubing, FMT - Flexible Metallic Tubing (used in plenums, ducts and other air-handling spaces with a maximum length of 6 feet) and ENT - Electrical Nonmetallic Tubing (the corrugated plastic stuff, often called "Smurf" tubing when using the blue color).
 
i've been completely outclassed by either depth of knowledge or sheer determination to answer the questions - love your work folks!
 
Never outclased, chime in away - amongst friends that share or will help refine your thoughts. None are more than those having dealt with stuff a while longer or learning more but always being open to learn or in leaning open to others helping us learn. Know more than in my case, nope, just what I do to the best I can and study in doing better.
 

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