Control/Dimming Road/Touring House Peeps, What Board do you Use?

Tristan

Member
Hi All! I see the stickied post, so if this isn't allowed, just let me know.

I'm hoping to catch the eyes of some other people in my position. The ETC Eos in our larger space (1801 seats) has just kicked the bucket and I've been tasked with figuring out a replacement. It is a road/touring house, so we don't produce anything. We get dance, music, circus, and speaking events among other thing, most here for just the day. We don't really do anything theatrical. Some of the shows come with a touring LD and board, but most shows don't and I'm the one in charge of designing and running the shows. The short time frame means that I'm busking shows most of the time.

I'm just wondering, for anyone in the same work situation, what do you use? And why?
 
I guess to some extent it could depend on how many moving lights are in your rig and how quickly you need to get them programmed for busking a show.

The EOS TI with its additional two encoder wheels and fancy touch screen for multi-parameter instruments makes programming of movers a bit easier than on the GIO or ION.
But I'm guessing that the GIO would have all of the horsepower you need to run the touring shows that come through. I am not familiar with the new ION XE, but it's possible that it might pack all of the power you need into a much smaller footprint, if that were to be a consideration.
 
I'm often in a similar situation. Personally I use an ION to busk in a 2,500 seat venue. I also use it in 400 and 700 seat venues... Since you say you often don't have much time and that you often have to busk, why not stay with the EOS line? You are already familiar with it, so there is no big difference to learn on. If you have the show file backed up, just load it on any other EOS software system and you're up and running.

In my opinion, all consoles do the same thing and the only limit I have with ETC is how it handles timecode. If all my shows were time code I'd switch to Vista. I'm familiar with Hog, GrandMA and Martin as well. They are all fine, and the all have their versions of direct selects. Syntax is a little bit different. Patch is a little bit different. And each one has there share of bugs.

So I would have a few questions to consider:

How much time do you have to learn a new brand?
Are your clients the forgiving type meaning if you screw up in a show, because you weren't familiar with a systems bugs?
What was missing on the EOS that you would like to see in your next console?
Was your EOS on the latest software? There has been a lot of great additions in the last couple of years.

If you stay in the EOS line than it's really about budget, room in your booth, and desirables (extra motorized faders, dedicated MIDI /SMPTE ports, etc.), meaning you can put more money into a console and possibly have some extra for fixtures.
If you switch than you potentially need to change all your nodes and possibly change how you are sending signal to your dimmers, meaning less budget for the console since you have to consider the network architecture.
 
Our road house works in a similar fashion.

I currently use an Ion XP, 2 ELO touchscreens. We use magic sheets extensively for busking with the 9 MAC
Auras and 6 MAC700’s, plus a large conventional rig. The last attempt at a grant was getting us a Gio @5. I wanted the large center touch screen that I preferred over the 2 smaller screens on the regular Gio. As well, I was going to use 2 additional 24” touch screens (you can’t do 3 screens on an Ion). As well we use fader wings, sometimes many faders, so I wanted desk space for them.
 
If you are using a larely conventional rig I totally agree with the above. Get an ION XE, GIO or TI... The best you can afford. Extra fader wings are GREAT, and the odd X-Keys and/or touchscreens can really expand and make for easier busking.
However if you are expanding into more and more movers it might come time eventually to switch to a GrandMA.

The ETC consoles do rule in non-busking environments, and as Im sure you have lots of experience you can certainly busk on them, especially when you have a well built show file. If the ION was going well for you, stick with ETC.
I know some guys in similar houses who've made the switch to GrandMA however.
 
Just consider that GrandMA operators are in greater demand than EOS operators. It may not matter in your situation, but both harder to find GrandMA ops at the same pay level as EOS ops, and more likely to be lured away if they learn GrandMA. On the other hand, if buying a GrandMA results in you learning GrandMA, more power and options to you!
 
The one you know best is always the best choice. Yes, you can change what you know.

To answer the original question, in this town;
Broadway road house has Ion, not that the big tours use the house gear. I occasionally get asked to do something there.
Arena uses Vista for sports flash n trash. All the big rock tours bring a MA.
Convention center uses Smartfade NON ML!
Rock road house uses Hog,
Symphony house has an Expression,
Rental companies have mostly Hog with 1 MA and 1 Element that I know of :think:
 
I'm going to come at this from another direction, is there something you were missing from your EOS setup that you may now have an opportunity to change? When you say your EOS kicked the bucket... what exactly happened? If it's just a dead port that's a fairly inexpensive repair. Unless you know for certain that the pcb board is toast you might be able to revive it to at least keep it in the closet for a backup or focus console.

Now to the real question... you say busking is important. Technically any console "can" busk. Is it the right, best or easiest way to do it might change your choice. Martins can be tricky to learn if you aren't used to the "rock and roll" playback fader style and their patching scheme. GrandMA is about as versatile as it gets in terms of cross genre programming, but even then most "theaters" don't have a need for it and you have to retrain your brain to understand knockouts and be ready to chase your faders through the flying pages... I grew up on all things ETC so it's my first language and my comfort console.

Identify what you want the console to do and how you want to interact with it and that will narrow your choices. Depending on your location see if you can make a visit to a local rental shop / or various dealers and have them give you a show. Always good to have contacts and bounce ideas off others and it's especially best when you can be hands on with a console or console family in question.
 
I'm going to come at this from another direction, is there something you were missing from your EOS setup that you may now have an opportunity to change? When you say your EOS kicked the bucket... what exactly happened? If it's just a dead port that's a fairly inexpensive repair. Unless you know for certain that the pcb board is toast you might be able to revive it to at least keep it in the closet for a backup or focus console.

Now to the real question... you say busking is important. Technically any console "can" busk. Is it the right, best or easiest way to do it might change your choice. Martins can be tricky to learn if you aren't used to the "rock and roll" playback fader style and their patching scheme. GrandMA is about as versatile as it gets in terms of cross genre programming, but even then most "theaters" don't have a need for it and you have to retrain your brain to understand knockouts and be ready to chase your faders through the flying pages... I grew up on all things ETC so it's my first language and my comfort console.

Identify what you want the console to do and how you want to interact with it and that will narrow your choices. Depending on your location see if you can make a visit to a local rental shop / or various dealers and have them give you a show. Always good to have contacts and bounce ideas off others and it's especially best when you can be hands on with a console or console family in question.

Yeah I grew up on Strand mostly (Mantrix 2, Lightboard M, etc) with the odd Obsession or Expression, Colourtran or NSI thrown in. MOST of which geared me to really think in a similar way to EOS. But as RickR said you can always learn something new. I've learned enough to make sure of a GrandMA but certainly am nowhere near the level needed to design, program and run a lot of shows. I mostly stick with EOS myself.

I personally typically suggest mostly EOS based solutions to most. I find it an excellent console environment no matter the form factor and nothing beats it at theatre IMO. But yes, I have to say if I were to start busking rock and roll and EDM shows I'd be brushing up on the MA real fast.

I hope this thread has helped @Tristan with their decision.
 
As add'l. Our space makes good use of the ability for a visiting event to come in and load their cues, typically established elsewhere on an Eos platform. We get that a lot and is the over-riding reason I use the Eos OS as opposed to some mid level GrandMA, which makes much more sense for the rentals that use the ML package. Making an Ion busk like a Hog or MA has been painful. It's gotten better over the last 2-3 OS releases, but it's always a struggle.
 
900 seats and we use an ion with 2 touch screens. Every tour we've had come through in the last two years has been carrying an ion, with the exception of 2 on MA's and 1 on a Gio.
 
Holy Cow! I didn’t think this post would blow up like this… thank you all for your thoughtful and helpful posts! Bear with me as I go through all of them…

In terms of our current everyday rig, most of the time, it is a lot of conventionals and color LEDs. It’s a quite modest rig for how big the space is. That being said, we just outfitted our smaller theatre with an extensive moving light rig and our large space should follow suit at some point. Plus, we get different shows with all sorts of different lighting packages, so we have to be ready for just about anything. In all honesty the new ION would probably cover us for most of the stuff we do, but we really want to be covered for everything, especially guest artists.

Therein lies the rub. If it was just me running all of these shows, I would say sure. However, that’s not always the case. I do have to factor in that there are times when tours will bring files or a programmer and we need to provide them with the tools they need for their show. If it were just me programming these shows, heck, I’d probably be real tempted to get an MQ500. We have an MQ80 in the other space and it works really well for what they do over there. The problem is that there isn’t really anyone in the area that knows how to use a Chamsys and neither do a lot of the touring groups. But it seems like most people know how to use an ETC console to some degree. Not to mention the whole system is already setup for ETC equipment anyway.

In terms of learning new consoles… I’m not real worried about learning it. I seem to have a pretty good knack for these sort of things. Plus, work moves so slow on purchasing that I could probably have the manual memorized by the time we actually get a console lol.

In terms of feature and things… I mean all of these boards, more or less, can do the same thing… The workflow is a big differentiating factor. I really enjoy the lack of need for a lot of basic programming and the ability for a lot of things to be right at the surface that the Chamsys gives me. Like the fixture auto-populate with color palettes. I realize I could go into a color picker, but I was actually having a real difficult time on the ETC board the other day to display color tags and then to display them accurately with color palettes. Or the ability to have absolute control of how stuff fades even at a command line level. If I want my lights to fade to 50% from left to right or inside out, I can just add a slash to the command line. One of the biggest things is the execute menu and the ability to preload looks. I can have all the lights laid out hit preload then quickly create a look with colors, gobos, effects and decide exactly how all of these things will fade and then all I have to do is hit the go button. Entire looks made in a couple of taps and second. That being said, it’s not impossible to do this on EOS, just takes more time for some of those things.

We are running the latest version of the ETC software… Honestly, the updates have been pretty huge. It’s amazing how much better each version is!

Space isn’t too much of a concern, but price absolutely is.

I definitely feel there are waaaayyy more EOS programmers than MA in my area. I get bored with stuff and like torturing myself with learning new systems lol. That being said, it would probably be smarter to just get what everyone already knows.

In terms of what happened to our current EOS… we had a blue screen of death a couple of weeks ago. I restarted it and it had all black screens. I restarted it again and it worked fine for a couple of weeks. Then the other day, when I try to turn it on, the lights flash but it just puts out a solid tone instead of the beeps it normally does on boot. It sounds like the console is flatlining. I haven’t really had the time to look further into it. It was suggested to reseat the memory and hard drive, but I haven’t gotten around to it just quite yet. That being said, the higher ups are wanting to just upgrade the whole system. I definitely think it is worth getting it fixed even if we get a new system. It is somewhat convenient timing because I heard the XP era stuff is going to stop receiving updates when 3.0 drops.

Anyway, thank you so much everyone! This has been super useful! Also, it’s so cool to hear about everyone else’s setup and experience with this stuff. This forum really blows my mind sometimes!
 
Thing is consoles don’t all do the same things equally well as you detail on the differences between the Eos and Chamsys. It’s harder to do flash and trash on Eos period and you’ve just touched on a few things you find as examples. I always found effects just painful on Eos, the ability to configure master rate helps, but writing effects takes time.

Thing is that even though you have access to Eos programmers, are they conversant in making LED’s and ML’s act like they are being run from an MA ?, or are they just good at setting cues ?. There’s obviously a lot of Eos OS platforms out there so it’s very easy to call yourself an Eos programmer, but how many have their own show file with magic sheets pre-configured for busking ?, or would know how to do that ?

My recommendation is still for an @5 as I think you have a good handle on what the Eos OS can do and how to get the best out of it. Once you’ve gotten to the point of experience you currently have it’s just some add’l work to refine the work flow and develop the functionality on the desk.
 
Full Disclosure: I'm a sound guy that manages a sound/light/video shop and I play an IATSE stagehand at night...

In my shop have MA desks and network processors. We've also had AVO desks and have sold them off over the years. Back in the Yee Olde Analogue Dayz® we had Leprecon. Obviously we weren't doing theatre... One of our multipurpose 'event' venues has an AVO Titan on demo and I played with it a bit last night. It's the first AVO product I've been able to configure and set up without VooDoo rituals and animal sacrifices - so I'm already impressed - but I'm not the end user or purchaser. It's a big improvement over the Pearl, which was the last AVO console I'd touched.

What I see, based on the various hats I wear: Theater is still very much an ETC market, at least in terms of installed product. Touring theatre, the 2nd National Company kind, and the top end of the B-string road show producers can bring anything, but because the designs tend to use lots of movers, LED and video, I'm seeing mostly GrandMA variations. The music concert market is predominately GrandMA, too. One of the corporate AV shops I work with a lot has gone to the Hogs, (Full Boar is what I see them out with most often) but I'm seeing fewer Hogs on tour than in years past.

Tristan, I'm a bit confused, though, because you say the venue needs to have what visiting shows want, and while I tend to agree with that in principle, I think that the onus is on a tour to carry whatever LX console is needed to run their road show. What the venue needs is a solid, "everybody has seen/touched/used one before" console, even if it's not everyone else's first choice. In audio we say that Yamaha mixers are nobody's first choice but are everybody's second choice... Ultimately, if a visiting production needs a specific LX, audio or visual controller that they do not carry, hire in what is needed and make it an additional expense at settlement.
 
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Get what YOU like, and what other people in the area that sub for you like. If a tour has their own desk, it makes no difference, but if a tour has an LD or a PM who wants to dictate lighting cues for you to program, it's best to have a console you are good at operating.
 
You have a couple things to look at, I suppose. First, what is comfortable for you and your LX team to use? If they are mostly trained and comfortable on ETC, sticking in that realm will allow you to continue to work shows without huge training costs.
And if you get a show in that needs something a bit different, I am sure your area has companies that can rent you what you need.
My house had....well...i dont even know what it was....they just upgraded it, and the only thing we get that is local is the city symphony. The times when we had moving lights and LEDs, we had to rent, and one year the company we were renting from sent a different "companion" board to run the rented lights and the conventionals stayed on ours. But over 16 shows that year, I received 16 different boards, it was 2-3 years ago, and I dont recall what any of them were now, but they all did about the same thing.

If you're going to be programming the shows that come in, whether because they bring someone to tell you what they want or you are designing them yourself, youre going to want something you are comfortable on. Before you give a reccomendation, I would spend as much time in your smaller venue as possible, playing with what you have there and finding the pros and cons, since you said your larger theatre will be getting the upgrades already put in place in the smaller one.
By spending time with what you have there and figuring out what you do and do not like, what is made easier or what is made more difficult, and doing so with the thought of it all being on a larger scale... then talking with your LX team and discussing their views as well, you'll be able to figure out what is really going to allow you to function effectively.
We got new boards at my theatre for both LX and Audio. The audio board was a compelte change (anlog to digital, for one thing) and although tour guys will empathize with it being a new board and a learning curve, I've not met one who has not been frustrated when hearing "i apologize, its a new board, we just got it and I'm still learning" - and bosses dont particularly give much leeway when the tour complains about wasted time or incompetence or excuses, especially if it goes on for more than a couple months, even if the board was only used for 4 shows during that time.
So I sincerely advise toward getting something that you and your crew have some experience with. Sure, boards all do basically the same thing, ive had to teach a lead how to use his companys new board because it was new, even though id never used one before. But when you're getting instructions shouted at you, having to go through the cues one more time and having to chnage them for the 5th time into what it was you originally had anyway, or having to make changes 2minutes before the doors open/5mins after they should have been opened...being able to make those changes confidently can make the difference between the client giving a glowing review or cursing your name as they make their way across the country.

For example, my second show ever running a board, I was sent to a venue, lights all got set, and the college dance club was going to do their rehearsals while I programmed. It was a hog2. Its a good thing I take really good notes, ask performers questions on what they see, etc, because otherwise I would have been sunk. About 3 numbers in, I go to save, and after I hit save, the desk crashes. I reboot, continue on, just thinking I'll redo them later. Couple more down, go to save, crashes again...of course it crashes before it saved. It would not save all day. Crashed any time I tried to, losing me everything I had done prior. This being my first real show designing, my first time on my own (all the other techs were gone), and counting on my notes on how to program in order to even know how...needless to say that the board was about thrown across the room, the client was trying not to start freaking out (he was nearby while I called my boss to explain what was going on and beg for some help, or a new board). I ended up making some fluid cue stacks, finishing right before doors were to open, and having to roll my console backstage stage left, oh, and below stage level so I honeslty couldnt even see the stage during the show unless I stood on my tiptoes and pushed some drape out of the way. Not the best circumstances. I was confident with the client though, explained that yes, we were having issues, but that I promise his show would be spectacular, showed him my notes for every number....and started. I was lucky to be able to run it all on the fly, make it look incredible for them, and was told after that the client wasnt really thinking it would work out, given the issues, even though I was confident, but that he was more than impressed and it was more than he expected even if everything had worked perfectly. He asked me to design a couple other shows and it lead to some great places.
Had I not had my notes, ones that I took shadowing others for hours, especially since it was over 3mos between the first time and the second time I touched a board, I would not have been able to program and remain relatively calm enough to avoid a meltdown. But without that comfort, it didnt matter how many notes I took for each number, I wouldnt have been able to do them on the fly or been able to make sure that every one of the 23 numbers performed on a tiny stage in the middle of a cafeteria was different and fit with the meaning/idea of the artists performing.
Being able to be confident that at the 13th hour you can give the client the best possible show no matter what the circumstances or issues makes you valuable. And being on a system you are comfortable with will boost your confidence in doing so.

Good luck!
 
1700 seat historical theatre here and I run an Ion XE 20 with an additional fader wing. Busk most of the shows that come through, some LDs use it themselves, some have me program it, and the rest travel with their own. I've found it to work well for everything from rock to ballet. Have a handful of moving lights, LEDs and conventional. Works great.

It's also much easier when you know the board well and can set up a show for a visiting LD without any issues. I've been complimented numerous times on how quick and easy I can set up a board for an LD.
 

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