Rosco Files Suit Against ETC

What’s to stop someone with a lustr2 documenting the mix and creating a mix list. Weigandt07. Weigandt66. I’m da new swatch king dammit
Nothing as long as you have the old software. We just got Lustr 3's for FOH and the gel color picker isn't great on our AVO, especially for some of the newer fixtures with lots of different colors. So I spent a few hours last month building a spreadsheet with the color intensity's the ETC uses since we figured that would be the best starting point. I can see where a newer designer might not think in gel numbers. But as someone who has been in a mostly conventional house for 20 years we tend to think that way. And I'm sure we'll do some tweaking at times. But I see it as a quick shortcut to get close, especially for fixtures with lots of colors like a Lustr.
 
What’s to stop someone with a lustr2 documenting the mix and creating a mix list. Weigandt07. Weigandt66. I’m da new swatch king dammit
Lawyers, guns, and money. At least according to Warren Zevon. Send the money first.
 
But would your process change if you were the designer, not allowed to touch the console, having a separate programmer? "Put the backlights in R80" is a lot shorter than, "Backlights, mixing color palette, blue at 100, mag at 30, no, mag at 25, blue at 75. Lime at zero." Using color names/numbers is just a shortcut, a dyeing one at that, as has been pointed out, both programmers and designers of today are growing less familiar with "gels."

That's a fantastic point. I've never really been in that situation. I'd definitely have to re-evaluate my process in that context, and build a new workflow. I'm not sure how I'd approach it.
 
But would your process change if you were the designer, not allowed to touch the console, having a separate programmer? "Put the backlights in R80" is a lot shorter than, "Backlights, mixing color palette, blue at 100, mag at 30, no, mag at 25, blue at 75. Lime at zero." Using color names/numbers is just a shortcut, a dyeing one at that, as has been pointed out, both programmers and designers of today are growing less familiar with "gels."

I’ve seen several broadway designers who set up a pallet of 50 or so colors for all of the fixtures in A show ( so the color matches). So they don’t say ”backlight is R80” ( which is an approximation). They say “backlight in palette 18”.
 
So they don’t say ”backlight is R80” ( which is an approximation). They say “backlight in palette 18”.
Right but, rather than Palette 18, why not Palette 80? No one is saying it's an exact match of R80, but is similar enough than it reminds the designer of what Lux80 looks like in S4-HPL750.
 
And how might one categorize colour metamers where there's several ways of mixing "the same" colour with different LED ratios? R80a, R80b, R80c, etc?. (*tip of the hat for the ETC Virtual CUE 2022 presentation that kinda blew my mind on metamers...)
 
Right but, rather than Palette 18, why not Palette 80? No one is saying it's an exact match of R80, but is similar enough than it reminds the designer of what Lux80 looks like in S4-HPL750.
That's how all my color pallets are numbered, by gel number. Since Lee and Rosco numbers are in different places for the most part it's an easy way for me remember where I put things. And since I am still using gel for at least half my rig, I match the LEDs and movers to a S4 with that gel so everything matches.
 
The obsolescence of a medium is pretty much end of the line for whomever makes it. Look at Eastman Kodak; without the silver-based imaging business they all but evaporated and that's a big downfall from a former Dow Jones Industrial Average corporation. What I'm sure were closely held Kodak trade secrets in making these products are now available to all of us on YooToob. In one series of videos it became obvious that the key employees remaining were there mostly as a labor of love and I was left with the impression that when these folks retire, die, or move away from Rochester, the products will cease production. That there is any silver-on-acetate (or paper) business remaining is a curiosity, outside of art photography, cinematography, and archival uses.

We're already into a generation of students that may have never owned a Rosco swatch book.

The comparison to Pantone® is apt. *Someone* has to have names and specifications for specific colors of light and the gel makers have a whole lot of legacy there. How many years will it take before we stop calling colors by their "R" name? Should Rosco Labs be compensated for the creation of something that is both standards-based and a nomenclature that has fallen into "common use" but is otherwise obsolete?

Anyway, it's just a thought...
As someone who previously worked for a home decor and textiles company, Pantone colors are very important. They allow multiple people to see the exact same color from whereever they are. It also is easy to catalog and plan for a color to exist. I haven't worked on many big shows with primarily LED fixtures, but how does a designer pre-plan for a color if not to define a gel color? What do they write in their notes? Surely not RGB or HSI values.

It does beg the question - and Rosco probably hasn't thought about this except for that little handheld LED thing they sell - shooting for R80 across different fixtures is a real selling point. But they're not offering it.

Rosco should probably start some sort of color accuracy department that reviews the fixtures ability to hit the range of colors and sell that info back to the manufacturer of the light and console.

I know currently someone else is doing that, maybe each individual lighting manufacturer, but it would be like the THX certification for speakers. It wasn't that JBL or QSC or Yamaha didn't do their own internal testing, it was that THX's requirements were an independent standard to shoot for. That standard was gold before THX was spun off Lucas to an overpriced, consumer focused RGB keyboard maker who could care less about actual audio quality.
So you might have a Chauvet fixture that is Rosco certified and maybe a Martin fixture that is Rosco Gold certified. So that would be Rosco saying this light can hit 80% and 90% of our color library respectively.
And truly, those swatchbooks, they're even more important now than they were before, because someone with no thought is just scrolling through a color spectrum choosing colors at random.
 
I’ve seen several broadway designers who set up a pallet of 50 or so colors for all of the fixtures in A show ( so the color matches). So they don’t say ”backlight is R80” ( which is an approximation). They say “backlight in palette 18”.
But before they're in the theatre, how did they define those 50 colors?
 
It does beg the question - and Rosco probably hasn't thought about this except for that little handheld LED thing they sell - shooting for R80 across different fixtures is a real selling point. But they're not offering it.
That was the service Carallon offered to console manufacturers until the licensing agreement expired. It's not on their website anymore, but here was their services packet.

Rosco recently reached an agreement with Rotolight to offer their color library to them. I presume Roto sends fixtures to Rosco for calibrating those presets -- and/or, probably some process where those calculations happen via spreadsheet/algorithm based on the spectral response of each individual emitter color and then maybe they spot check the results.

Also, after the DMG Lumiere acquisition several years ago, Rosco has some higher end broadcast and film-type fixtures in their portfolio that are much higher grade than anything else they sell, though you probably haven't heard of them (and likely never will) because their reputation is more EU-centric and companies like Arri have their deathgrip on that market in the States.
 
As a couple of examples, the Chauvet 910 FC has a "colour wheel" facility which is Rosco colours, and Infinity fixtures similarly have a Lee colour wheel. Whether those are endorsed by the relevant colour manufacturers I don't know, but it's a selling point, certainly.
 
As a couple of examples, the Chauvet 910 FC has a "colour wheel" facility which is Rosco colours, and Infinity fixtures similarly have a Lee colour wheel. Whether those are endorsed by the relevant colour manufacturers I don't know, but it's a selling point, certainly.
I guess that's what's mind boggling to me. Why wouldn't Rosco push for deals that make calibrated colors a selling point on certain manufacturer's lights? With a logo on the light and everything. Like Rosco branding your face!
Wouldn't "legacy" designers jump at the chance to use fixtures guaranteed to match existing gel colors?
 
I guess that's what's mind boggling to me. Why wouldn't Rosco push for deals that make calibrated colors a selling point on certain manufacturer's lights? With a logo on the light and everything. Like Rosco branding your face!
Wouldn't "legacy" designers jump at the chance to use fixtures guaranteed to match existing gel colors?

Rosco, as any vendor, will only care so long as they are getting paid -- particularly since their market cap in gel products is deteriorating. Probably the reason the lawsuit doesn't call out gobos as a problem -- gobos are still a product that Rosco can sell and that having those libraries included in consoles can be helpful to their sales.

As for legacy designers -- I can't imagine almost anyone choosing to buy fixtures based on Rosco having built-in presets when there are so many other factors to consider -- and fixture vendors will want to maintain openness to all color libraries. No point in putting a Rosco label on it if 1) Rosco didn't make the fixture and 2) Apollo and Lee would have their logos on it as well. There's also the fact that LED's have spent a decade already gaining momentum. The days of it being potentially compelling to buy a fixture because a particular gel manufacturer blesses it as accurate...for some portion of the spectrum but even today maybe not all of it...are well past and quickly further diminishing.

My small team of 6 works on probably 30 high schools a year -- high schools being one of the predominant markets for stage lighting systems. As Bill Conner would say, the number of professional theater installations in a year is a pittance to the number of K12 projects annually. Nobody, on a single project of mine ever, has raised a concern about being able to match gels. They're almost all getting entirely new LED systems. Compatibility with one gel system or another has no influence on the vast majority of fixture or console sales. That may have been the case in 2014, but it's only a factor today for a relatively small portion of the total stage lighting market. So while Rosco may want lots of money from a company of ETC's size, ETC may see it as not worth the expense.

But the reality is -- nobody in the public knows what happened. Did Rosco want to hold ETC or Carallon hostage with extreme fees? Did Carallon undergo their own business model change when they became employee-owned in Nov 2020? Are the fees Rosco may have been asking for actually unreasonable or simply they were asking for maybe more than Lee or Apollo has historically wanted -- but that Lee and Apollo may start asking for themselves? Are ETC and Rosco in a feud because they both sell film/broadcast LED fixtures now like how the ETC/Wenger feud has led to Wenger pushing Strand and other solutions rather than propose options from a direct competitor they have in the motorized rigging market?

Nobody here knows. But suffice it to say, ETC is the big dog in the neighborhood, Rosco's having to adapt their business model to the new norms in modern lighting, and there's potentially a lot of money on the line for what seems like a trivially simple color library but is the product of decades of development on the behalf of Rosco -- the merits of which today are gradually becoming more questionable because whether it's in 10 years or 20, the days are coming where most users will have zero reference to what L181 or R08 were in the tungsten days -- and their experience calling up those numbers in the LED days will change every time they are using a different type of fixture providing no stable reference.

In that vein, probably a discussion to be had about what happens over the next 10 years as the tungsten gold standard becomes a thing of the past. LED vendors will still have their own configurations of emitter arrays of different capabilities and qualities. Does a consortium or open-source color library emerge? Do console manufacturers make their own libraries? What's the virtue in paying licensing fees for multiple libraries that the majority of users will have no experience with and/or inconsistent experiences depending on which fixtures they're using? Does none of this matter because designers will become used to spending a little time making their own custom palettes before they start cueing a show and a much, much smaller library of options will get them close enough to start with and they will tweak as they see fit?
 
Nobody, on a single project of mine ever, has raised a concern about being able to match gels. They're almost all getting entirely new LED systems. Compatibility with one gel system or another has no influence on the vast majority of fixture or console sales.

Ok, but to what degree is that an externality: the people *writing specs and RFPs* are not *the people who will (get stuck) running the gear to actually produce things*.

I'm not terribly surprised to learn that that capability isn't making it into RFPs, but I'm not sure that's evidentiary about whether the capability is actually still wanted and needed where the rubber hits the road... unless your theatre boss, driving the refit, *is an LD*.

I'm not saying you don't have an answer to this issue, but you seem to have begged the question at this point in the broadcast. :)
 
More designers having hissy fits because, well, they're DESIGNERS ?

I hinted at the solution, one partly dealt with by Carralon until they became irrelevant for whatever reasons. Like Pantone, someone will come up with formulae to render specific spectral colors from whatever sources, a "rosetta stone", if you will. Or the alternative is to stop teaching "color" the way it's been taught for over 100 years.

What must Rosco do to stay relevant? Perhaps doubling down on color science?
 
Just updated to the latest release of the Eos software, and it seems like ETC removed all mention of Rosco -- they're not included in the manufacturer database for lighting fixtures (the LitePad) or lighting accessories (the I-Cue, dmx irises, gobo rotators, etc.) either.

Pretty petty, if you ask me.
 
I dunno.. petty? If someone has a lawsuit against me, I don't think I would do anything gratis to promote the use of their products.
Maybe Rosco will "see the light" and decide it might be better to get along. Or possibly the lawyers made them to avoid any further claim of intellectual property infringement.
 
I dunno.. petty? If someone has a lawsuit against me, I don't think I would do anything gratis to promote the use of their products.
Maybe Rosco will "see the light" and decide it might be better to get along. Or possibly the lawyers made them to avoid any further claim of intellectual property infringement.
I think it likely it's the latter.

But, sadly, it's cutting off their nose to spite their face, near as I can see. Rosco is suffering from success here: they didn't figure out a way to continue to make money off their standards setting reliably, and it's gotten away from them.

I suspect some independent third party will create or extract the relevant numbers and make them available to houses with desks.
 

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