RoscoGEL

dvsDave

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Hey @Scenemaster60

@derekleffew is a self-described curmudgeon ;) He was speaking personally, not in his role as a moderator. (we added a feature to show when our Moderators speak officially, as you can see from the red boxes above)

@gafftaper 's post was excellent because in general, we do love to preserve and archive historical information here on ControlBooth. I would love to see your research go into the controlbooth wiki, (which incidentally, @derekleffew has contributed far and away the most entries)

Also, @Kelite : a ControlBooth Amber would be awesome... ;)
 

StradivariusBone

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I find the subtext of this thread interesting, particularly regarding the so-described impending death of color media as it exists now. I share an interest in preserving the "how we did it back then" aspect of many things, not solely related to the entertainment business. However, the assumption that LED's will completely kill colored plastic made me think of an interesting story by Robert Krulwich regarding a statement made by Kevin Kelly, an editor at Wired, and at the risk of a thread hijack (sorry @Scenemaster60) I wanted to share the article with you.

Essentially, Kelly claims that there is no tool (or rather species of tool) that has gone completely extinct. In some way, shape or form, every tool ever built is continuing to exist in some form. Ultimately, they find a small few that have gone the way of the dino, but not easily.

More to the point of the thread- I see the excitement that can be found in uncovering in how it was done in days gone by, but I also see the depressing, if not enchanting aspect of Derek's point of view,
Sadly, stage lighting cannot be accurately documented, via any media
-which is all too true. I once had an orchestra conductor tell me that music is unique as an artform that can be observed through the actual production of it, as well as being an observer of its creation. Every time someone plays Brahms' Symphony No.1, it's going to be slightly different and reflective of the artistic nature of the performers in that instance. I think theatre has a similar aspect, particular to scenic and lighting design. Every theatre is different, every stage is different. Even if you have two identical buildings, they possess a different path of evolution, dictated by the occupants who work and dwell within them. They become living spaces and they only way to effectively understand them is through experience of it in the moment.

Pencil on paper is not a great clue, however it remains our only means of recalling how it might've been produced. Since that's the only way to have a glimpse into the workings, I think it's worthy of the time investment. Assuming one has the time to invest.
 

venuetech

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Sadly, stage lighting cannot be accurately documented, via any media.
but I thought that was what we try to do every time a touring ballet company comes in the door, or when an opera house remounts a production last done ten years ago, with the original sets from the first time they produced it some fifty years ago.
sure the original designer may be long gone but with the documentation the lighting is recreated as close as it can be to the original design. With much of the designers intent passed on in the stage mangers notes and cues.
If you want to actually find sheets of old color one of your best bets may be a large opera house in your area. A friend of mine worked for years at the San Francisco Opera as their "color guy" and he said that they had much old color. If they got wind of a manufacturer going out of business or ending production of a particular color they would buy as much as they could and put it into stock. as i understand it much of his job entailed trying to match and update color from a lighting design originally done 30 or more years in the past.
 
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Scenemaster60

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The concept of remounting repertory opera production years, even decades, after design is an interesting one to ponder. I do suspect, thought, that we have reached a point where any productions that are still being used that might have been designed with Brigham, Cinemoid or even Roscolene have been mounted enough times since the demise of that media that substitutions have been made and noted. We have also had the Source 4 revolution (along with the introduction of the HX lamp) since then which has in many cases dramatically increased the amount of light that any one lighting instrument can produce as well as pushing color temps of light sources slightly higher in general. These issues, again, mean that we are not on a level playing field. Ulimately, this IS art!
 

Les

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I definitely think there is value in researching and cataloging our history regarding color; just as we do with lamps, instruments, etc. However, doing so just to allow one to reproduce copy a lighting design hung some 60 years ago seems rather futile. As Scenemaster said, it IS art, and open to interpretation by not only the designer but the spectator as well. If you're going to go through such lengths to get the color correct, you'd might as well ensure that all the angles and fade times are the same as well, since they also play a significant roll in how a design feels. By matching color, you're only duplicating a portion of the entire picture.
 

gafftapegreenia

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Historical note about the "A series" colors:
For a time, perhaps 1983-1986, Rosco was having trouble reproducing some (perhaps 10-15 of the most popular) of its Roscolux colors. They ran a (brilliant?) marketing campaign, When a Dye Dies..., explaining for example, that R35A was close, but not the same as, the R35 that everyone had come to expect. After a while, the controversy dissipated, the "A" suffix was dropped quietly and without notice, and everyone simply moved on.
I think I've only ever encountered Rx35A, and no other A series color in the wild. I'd enjoy seeing one of those old ads.

Sure, some colors from defunct lines have never been duplicated, and we can/should? mourn their loss nostalgically. Or we can look forward to using the literally hundreds of colors never dreamt of by Feder, Musser, Bay, et al. L650 anyone?
A younger Derek told me he didn't "do" 3xx or 7xx colors. So I take it the 6xx is ok?

I don't think people should be allowed into the 3xx or 7xx until they've used all the 1xx's. WHY do we need all these coloUrs?


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derekleffew

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Now WHO's being hostile? Typical librul lame stream media response: Purposely distorting my views by quoting me verbatim. One might say I've "evolved" on the issue, but in reality, Lee 650 was simply the most onerous colour I could find quickly. I still think, for the novice lighting designer, too many color choices is more of a detriment than too few. Designers using rare or exotic colors are just showing off.
-----
I've thought some more on my idea of asking @Kelite to remake an obsolete color. If the original manufacturer didn't feel it was warranted (I don't fully buy the "we'd love to, but we just can't match the dye" answer), why would someone else think they could make a success of it? Besides, we'll just mix it with CMY, RGB, or RLAGCBI.
 

gafftapegreenia

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Now WHO's being hostile? Typical librul lame stream media response: Purposely distorting my views by quoting me verbatim. One might say I've "evolved" on the issue, but in reality, Lee 650 was simply the most onerous colour I could find quickly.
Just giving you the same treatment that I know you'd give me. I can't let you have all the fun being the only one quoting old posts.

I was actually disappointed that you didn't choose a 7xx color, because then I really could have 'leaned forward'.


Also, whenever a "designer" tells me their favorite color is Skelton Exotic Sangria, I always wonder if they've done more than flip through swatch books.

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kicknargel

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In 40 years it will just be a footnote in textbooks that we used to have to put pieces of different colored plastic or glass in front of tungsten or arc lamps to get specific colors.
I don't know about THAT. There's 40+ year-old equipment still in use all over the place. Maybe 140.
 

techieman33

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I don't know about THAT. There's 40+ year-old equipment still in use all over the place. Maybe 140.
Yeah but that's halogen vs. halogen. You don't save money upgrading to a source 4, you still have to buy lamps, gels, and and all that other stuff. As the price of LED's drops it will become much cheaper to buy the LED's than to continue to buy dimmers, heavy cable, gel, lamps, maintenance items (if you can still get them) and everything else needed for old fixtures.
 

ptero

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I don't know about THAT. There's 40+ year-old equipment still in use all over the place. Maybe 140.
Mine will be 50 yrs old in two years. Built like a battleship. Dang things keep on working, though we're slowly replacing capacitors. We have a rack of 39 Model 200 + 300 Century 6k's. That's where I keep my Brigham, Cinemoid, Rosco- Gel, Lene, Lar and Lux(w/A's) swatch books! Not really, but they ARE wrapped in foil.
 
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dvsDave

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