"S4s are old..."

[SteveB]

Here's what the BMI catalog has: Note that Production Avantage is generally cheaper, but their website is under construction.

- Standard S4 fixture w/ a single lens tube in the 19/26/36/50 series @ $290 ea. (they throw in a lamp)

- ETC S4 19, 26, 36 & 50 lens tubes in the EDLT series, @ $179 per lens tube. These are the ONLY EDLT tubes available.

- Standard 19, 26, 36, & 50 degree lens tubes @ $88 ea.

- 14, 70 & 90 @ $209 ea. These are NOT EDLT

- 10 degree @ $292, 5 degree @ $227

- 25/50 Zoom fixture @ $462 ea.

Doing the math:. To purchase a standard S4 at 26 degree w/ extra 36 and 50 degree tubes costs $465. Buying a Zoom @ 25/50 = $462.

Savings on not paying the labor to swap lenses before AND DURING focus when the LD changes their mind = PRICLESS. (I forgot the need for a 3" long City Theatrical color frame extender on the zoom @ $22 - so $484)

Which is why I buy the zooms.

FWIW, the 14, 70 & 90 tubes are really expensive, not sure why.

SB

 

[SteveB]

Err.... not exactly.
The ETC formula for the S4 was to make the best possible ERS fixture. The result was that the professional lighting market jumped on it immediately. The secondary result was that consultants and school users saw the benefit of this revolutionary fixture.
ETC is constantly improving the S4 (14, 70, 90, EDLT, etc), and the beneficiaries of this work are both the professional market and the academic market.
There is no corporate strategy at ETC that says "Let's be slow, because the market is the schools". To the contrary, our approach is "Let's do all the product development we can to enhance the S4 brand and make it more desirable to the broad market".
ST

In essence though, ETC does market and manufacture specifically to the non-professional market with it's S4 Jr. series as well as the Smart consoles and dimmers. Not as much call for this stuff outside of secondary education schools, though the rental shops may find usage for the Smart dimmers and consoles, IMO.

SB

 

[Sean]

This led me to believe the standard for birdies was 120volt bipin mr16 lamps.
Since this was apparently the wrong assumption. What then is recommended? Why not 120v mr16? When you say fire hazard, is that because the cans themselves melt, or are the mr16s uncommonly hot? Is there a significant light output difference from 12 to 120 volt mr16lamps? I'd rather not wire ten of these together, would the 12volt flavor be useable with, say a ghostload? Any more information on the subject is greatly appreciated.

The fixtures from TMB (and I presume others) are made for 12v lamps. They have sockets for 12v lamps--GX5.3 (round pins). The 120v lamps are made for GY5.3 (oval pins). What people do is jam them into the round holes.

120v lamps with these pins can be found in higher wattages (250w) than the JDR (medium screw style) 100w max. But, the "wrong" lamps are very fragile when lit, and yes they get hot. Not hot enough to melt the can, but hot enough to burn your fingers or scorch paper/fabric, etc.

As for a ghostload.....
What you would need to do is wire ~105v of load in series with the MR lamp. It would be easier to use a 12v transformer.

Or just get the 120v fixtures and avoid yourself a bit of a headache.

Hope that helps....


--Sean

 

[STEVETERRY]

FWIW, the 14, 70 & 90 tubes are really expensive, not sure why.
SB

The 14, 70, and 90 all include EDLT technology, which means two lenses, superior imaging, and antireflective coatings. That picks up about 10% more brightness.

ST

 

[Charc]

On the topic of MR16s:

Sean, as per usual, I'm shown I don't know anything, and didn't realize the pins were different (round and oval). This is now making more sense to me. So to clarify, there are birdies designed to accept the GY5.3 Oval-Pins, on a 120 volt lamp? Where can I purchase these then. Or is the risk of fire, as was previously mentioned, too great in this circumstance? On our current show, we will have two towers, DSL and DSR, with balcony levels. My thought was to hide these in the towers, to provide some back/side light for those on the second level. Given the heat (I tried to focus one after it had been on for a couple minutes... ) maybe it's ill-advised to place these so near to actors who might bump into them climbing up the scaffolding, or however we construct the towers.

On the topic of S4s:

Thanks Steve Terry for the clarification on EDLT. I've never had the chance to use an EDLT tube, so I'm curious if anyone has some input on them. In addition, what is this about the the zooms and gel-frame extenders? Do they tend to burn out the gel quickly? I really am torn on what to suggest we purchase. On one hand, the zooms are really flexible, and would make life a lot easier (our dept head even thought our existing 19º S4s were zooms); on the other hand, we'll be buying each fixture with its own lens tube, as the idea is to phase in the S4. So we could essentially get two instruments for the price of one, if we went the non-zoom route... hmm. Here's a question: Do zooms and normal S4s play nice with each other? Or should we go one route or the other?

 

[SteveB]

The 14, 70, and 90 all include EDLT technology, which means two lenses, superior imaging, and antireflective coatings. That picks up about 10% more brightness.
ST

Indeed.

Curious though about the marketing as to why they're not called EDLT ?.

SB

 

[Sean]

So to clarify, there are birdies designed to accept the GY5.3 Oval-Pins, on a 120 volt lamp? Where can I purchase these then. Or is the risk of fire, as was previously mentioned, too great in this circumstance?

Not that I'm aware of. I don't know of any "birdie-like" fixture that takes the oval-pin lamps. You _can_ get fixtures that take 120v 100w JDR lamps. That's the kind we prefer to use at work (though we have in the past used the 250w oval-pin fiasco).

--Sean

 

[SteveB]

In addition, what is this about the the zooms and gel-frame extenders? Do they tend to burn out the gel quickly? UNQUOTE



QUOTE: I am really am torn on what to suggest we purchase. On one hand, the zooms are really flexible, and would make life a lot easier (our dept head even thought our existing 19º S4s were zooms); on the other hand, we'll be buying each fixture with its own lens tube, as the idea is to phase in the S4. So we could essentially get two instruments for the price of one, if we went the non-zoom route... hmm. Here's a question: Do zooms and normal S4s play nice with each other? Or should we go one route or the other?

The 25/50 series fry gel. The reason as given by ETC Tech support (I sort of knew what answer was forthcoming before I called, but wanted to see if there were words of wisdom) was along the lines of: With a 750 watt lamp and a lot of light coming out the front end, due to superior reflector and optics, the gel manufacturers have not yet caught up with the need for more robust gels.

I'll by that. Others won't.

In any event, the 3" color frame extender, while a nuisance to keep on the unit, does the trick and I have no issues with gel burnout.
Lot's of opinions as to zooms vs. fixed. I like them as I keep a Rep hang and have zero time to do lens changes. I also found them cost effective as - at the time, buying a zoom was cheaper then a fixed with 2 xtra lens tubes.

Lot's of other advantages to zooms, some disadvantages:

- The biggest is variable gobo imaging.

- Easier to match pool sizes in a dance plot with varying trim heights.

- I see a lot of Euro and out-of-US companies that see zooms in their own spaces and are familar with them. Zooms never took off in the US, for reasons that escape me. A Spanish dance company spec'd all S4 25/50 zooms in their US tour plot last year. I think I was the only theater they visited that had any.

- The ETC zoom is fast and easy to focus one handed. It's faster then my Altman and Colortran zooms.

- Very easy to clean the lenses, with a well designed access hatch that actually allows you to get your hand inside. As opposed to the Shakespeare with it's tiny 3rd lens near the gate that requires entire fixture disassembly to clean.

Disadvantages ?.

- The imaging is not always as precise at certain settings, a result of compromised optical design to make the zoom function. I've read from others that the side-by-side comparision to a fixed shows the zoom as dimmer and with poorer optics. I've never done side-by-side so can't say and in any event, with an overhead hang of all Pars and Zooms don't run into that problem. Not one company has ever complained.

- The lens adjustment control is either on the correct side, or the wrong side. It wants to be field convertable so as to work in permanenet positions (Box Left vs. Box Right) where access is on the wrong side. Or put the lens control on the bottom.

- Heavier then a fixed. Not an issue in a rep hang and even when we re-hang, nobody complains as they are not carrying them very far.

My $.02

SB

 

[Charc]

No that I'm aware of. I don't know of any "birdie-like" fixture that takes the oval-pin lamps. You _can_ get fixtures that take 120v 100w JDR lamps. That's the kind we prefer to use at work (though we have in the past done used the 250w oval-pin fiasco).
--Sean

Hmm, thanks for this input. It sounds like that is the way to go, and won't require any modification. To make sure I'm clear on this. JDR is a classification of lamp, so I can buy any brand JDR medium screw base lamps for these. And these have a comparable light output? Are there any specific brands or vendors that are recommended? I don't think my local store carries these, but I'll check.

 

[Sean]

Hmm, thanks for this input. It sounds like that is the way to go, and won't require any modification. To make sure I'm clear on this. JDR is a classification of lamp, so I can buy any brand JDR medium screw base lamps for these. And these have a comparable light output? Are there any specific brands or vendors that are recommended? I don't think my local store carries these, but I'll check.

Contact a theatrical supplier. Buy both the lamps and the fixtures from them so they make sure they match up.

I believe the birdies I have at work are American DJ, though I'm not positive.

JDR is basically an MR lamp with either an intermediate or medium screw base. Get the medium screw type of both the fixture and lamp--I'm not even sure if they make a fixture with an intermediate base.

JDR lamps also come in different beam spreads. I'm aware of Wide, Medium, and Narrow. Not sure if there are others. They also come in different wattages. I think 100w is the highest you can get.

Some places call them PAR-20's. Where are you located?

--Sean

 

[Charc]

Contact a theatrical supplier. Buy both the lamps and the fixtures from them so they make sure they match up.
I believe the birdies I have at work are American DJ, though I'm not positive.
JDR is basically an MR lamp with either an intermediate or medium screw base. Get the medium screw type of both the fixture and lamp--I'm not even sure if they make a fixture with an intermediate base.
JDR lamps also come in different beam spreads. I'm aware of Wide, Medium, and Narrow. Not sure if there are others. They also come in different wattages. I think 100w is the highest you can get.
Some places call them PAR-20's. Where are you located?
--Sean

Thanks Sean. I will contact some suppliers and try and get some numbers to present to the dept head.

(I live in Philly.)

 

[icewolf08]

The 25/50 series fry gel. The reason as given by ETC Tech support (I sort of knew what answer was forthcoming before I called, but wanted to see if there were words of wisdom) was along the lines of: With a 750 watt lamp and a lot of light coming out the front end, due to superior reflector and optics, the gel manufacturers have not yet caught up with the need for more robust gels.
.....
Lot's of other advantages to zooms, some disadvantages:
- The biggest is variable gobo imaging.
- Easier to match pool sizes in a dance plot with varying trim heights.
- I see a lot of Euro and out-of-US companies that see zooms in their own spaces and are familar with them. Zooms never took off in the US, for reasons that escape me. A Spanish dance company spec'd all S4 25/50 zooms in their US tour plot last year. I think I was the only theater they visited that had any.
Disadvantages ?.
- The imaging is not always as precise at certain settings, a result of compromised optical design to make the zoom function. I've read from others that the side-by-side comparision to a fixed shows the zoom as dimmer and with poorer optics. I've never done side-by-side so can't say and in any event, with an overhead hang of all Pars and Zooms don't run into that problem. Not one company has ever complained.
- Heavier then a fixed. Not an issue in a rep hang and even when we re-hang, nobody complains as they are not carrying them very far.
My $.02
SB

Ok, the ETC 15/30 Zooms can also cook gel at some focal lengths. I have had this problem on occasion and since we don't have color extenders we just put the gel on the end of a top hat, it works.

In my opinion, the Source four zoom is one of the most unwieldy instruments that we have in our inventory. They are huge and heavy. If you want to hang them on an electric over the stage you have to totally adjust trim heights for sight lines which often throws off other units.

They were purchased before my time at the theatre because at the time they were the only instrument that had a 15˚ beam angle. If you set one up with perfectly clean optics and a brand new lamp next to a fixed focus unit the fixed focus will win for intensity any day. We just purchased a bunch of 14˚ lenses and they out shoot the zooms. (I was going to say "like it's their job" but it is!)

It is true, the zoom has caught on more in Europe. Seems to me that would have something to do with designers not wanting to do math. Sure, it's great if you need to line up templates, but you can't get the same crisp imaging out of them.

No offense to our ETC friends here, but if you want a zoom instrument pick up the Selecon Pacific Zooms. They are smaller, lighter, and have better optics (in the zoom category, I actually have never worked with the fixed focus Selecons). They handle image projection better, and they tend not to cook gel, as they are designed not to.

Look at the Prices below (From BMI):

ETC 15/30 - $462.90
Selecon 14/35 - $509
ETC Fixed w/ 19˚, 26˚ & 36˚ - $465​

Then think about it like this, you get better output and the true Source Four modularity from buying the fixture with spare lens tubes. Plus you get to learn the process behind picking instrumentation. Also, you have spare lens tubes and you don't have to mess around with big clunky instruments. Or, for almost the same price, if your heart is set on a zoom you can get one that isn't big and clunky whose output may compare to the fixed.

 

[drawstuf99]

Not to mention, though it has slight varying results, you could always use a drop-in iris if you're concerned about the beam spread of your 19Degree not looking like it's a 15Degree. As for patterns, that doesn't help you, though.

Fixed focus all the way, in my opinion. Those S4 Zooms have always been a pain to handle when I've used them. Anyone tried the S4 Jr Zooms?

 

[Charc]

Yes, after thinking about it, fixed focus does make the most sense, even given the cost of EDLT tubes. I'm not sure it's worth it to get the EDLT when standard tubes are available. Maybe having some for projection purposes?

My next thought, if these S4s are to be phased in, what is worth starting with (ontop of our existing half dozen 19º instruments)? Given our long throws, I'm inclined to start with, a couple of 14º instruments, then a couple of 26º instruments. (Does it make sense to buy in "pairs" like this? I'm just trying to avoid having the "odd light out".

 

[Sean]

My next thought, if these S4s are to be phased in, what is worth starting with (ontop of our existing half dozen 19º instruments)? Given our long throws, I'm inclined to start with, a couple of 14º instruments, then a couple of 26º instruments. (Does it make sense to buy in "pairs" like this? I'm just trying to avoid having the "odd light out".

Think in terms of how the units are used. Replace systems. If you have five areas across the stage, replace all five front lights with S4's, etc. If you can't do that, then use the newer lights as specials, etc until you have enough of them to replace a system.

Make sense?

--Sean

 

[Charc]

Think in terms of how the units are used. Replace systems. If you have five areas across the stage, replace all five front lights with S4's, etc. If you can't do that, then use the newer lights as specials, etc until you have enough of them to replace a system.
Make sense?
--Sean

Yep, thanks for the advice Sean. This concept keeps inline with our current practices, so it is good to hear we're doing at least one thing right.

 

[icewolf08]

Yes, after thinking about it, fixed focus does make the most sense, even given the cost of EDLT tubes. I'm not sure it's worth it to get the EDLT when standard tubes are available. Maybe having some for projection purposes?
My next thought, if these S4s are to be phased in, what is worth starting with (ontop of our existing half dozen 19º instruments)? Given our long throws, I'm inclined to start with, a couple of 14º instruments, then a couple of 26º instruments. (Does it make sense to buy in "pairs" like this? I'm just trying to avoid having the "odd light out".

If you want to know what instruments are right for your throw, all you need to do is know how big you want your areas to be and the distance to the position. Then you can draw the angles and with a protractor find the closest fit.

Then I have to agree with Sean, you should try to replace entire systems.

 

[Charc]

I forgot to ask this before:

The S4 user manual says to clean the lenses with vinegar or household ammonia. I thought isopropyl alcohol was a suitable substitute, and would do a better job than vinegar. I suppose I'm wrong. Does anyone have any more specific information on cleaning instruments, with special regards to the S4, and to lenses?

I already have the lint-free cloth, now I may need to look into a bottle of vinegar, in addition to the iso I already bought. Is there anything else that should be done, for instance, lubricating the barrel? Or something?

 

[Sean]

I forgot to ask this before:
The S4 user manual says to clean the lenses with vinegar or household ammonia. I thought isopropyl alcohol was a suitable substitute, and would do a better job than vinegar. I suppose I'm wrong. Does anyone have any more specific information on cleaning instruments, with special regards to the S4, and to lenses?
I already have the lint-free cloth, now I may need to look into a bottle of vinegar, in addition to the iso I already bought. Is there anything else that should be done, for instance, lubricating the barrel? Or something?

The manual is rather complete--download http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/S4_Assembly_Guide_RevB.pdf
It'll tell you everything you need to know about the fixtures.

The alcohol might damage/remove the coating on the lenses. Use what the manual says.

At work (where cleaning all the leko's is a week-long affair with a crew of 8-10) we have a bunch of things that are useful when dealing with a LOT of fixtures. I don't think you'll need much for the number of fixtures you're dealing with.

But, if you're dealing with hundreds of them, a couple hints:

Use a cordless impact driver to REMOVE (not insert) the barrel and rotation knobs. If you get a 25/32" 12-point socket it will fit perfectly. You'll save your fingers and speed up the process. Use a drill with the clutch turned all the way down to reinsert those knobs. You can also use that socket, maybe with a handle welded across the back as a helper when you bench focus the lights.
Flip the lamps in the sockets. The filaments droop over time and you'll end up chasing the hot-spot across the field until the lamp blows. So, we take each lamp out and flip it when cleaning the units. I don't know that it actually improves lamp life, but we already take out the lamps to inspect the sockets, so why not?


--Sean

 

[icewolf08]

I forgot to ask this before:
The S4 user manual says to clean the lenses with vinegar or household ammonia. I thought isopropyl alcohol was a suitable substitute, and would do a better job than vinegar. I suppose I'm wrong. Does anyone have any more specific information on cleaning instruments, with special regards to the S4, and to lenses?
I already have the lint-free cloth, now I may need to look into a bottle of vinegar, in addition to the iso I already bought. Is there anything else that should be done, for instance, lubricating the barrel? Or something?

Vinegar and ammonia are not hard to find, just go to your local supermarket. Make sure you use white vinegar and white ammonia. I imagine that say balsamic or rice wine vinegar may work, but it is better to be safe. While you are at the market, pick up some of the handheld plant spray bottles (or use an empty windex bottle). Dilute your vinegar or ammonia (you really don't need much ammonia especially) and pour it in the spray bottle and away you go. Works very well.

In addition to what Sean said, you can also hit the shutters with graphite lube. This comes in an aerosol can like spray paint. You don't need to use a lot, just a quick spray and then work it into the shutters by sliding them around.