Senior Technicians/Stagehands and Harness Use

[jwl868]

Regarding that front ring: I tried searching through the OSHA website and OSHA regs as best I could, but I found no reference to the requirement for a front ring, only that for fall arrest, the attachment goes in the back (as already noted).

I did find a discussion (see link) about a change in the ANSI harness specification (which I believe OSHA uses) and that discusses the front ring and its uses. (ANSI specs are available only at a cost, so I don't have the full citation.)

Lab Safety Supply - EZ Facts Safety Info - Document #347, ANSI Z359 - A New Lift to Fall Protection Standards

And part of that discussion:

Another change to Z359.1 was the addition of requirements and markings for harnesses equipped with a front-mounted D-Ring or attachment. In the past, standard harnesses with a front mounted D-ring could utilize that D-ring attach point for ladder climbing, fall restraint or work positioning systems only. “The new standard offers an explanation, that the front D-ring attachment on a harness should be positioned within the sternum (at the breastbone) area of the body. The front D-ring attachment is intended for the use in rescue, work position, rope access, and other ANSI Z359.1 recognized applications where the design of the systems is such that only a limited free fall of two (2) feet is permitted.”


Joe

 

[Charc]

Regarding that front ring: I tried searching through the OSHA website and OSHA regs as best I could, but I found no reference to the requirement for a front ring, only that for fall arrest, the attachment goes in the back (as already noted).

I did find a discussion (see link) about a change in the ANSI harness specification (which I believe OSHA uses) and that discusses the front ring and its uses. (ANSI specs are available only at a cost, so I don't have the full citation.)

Lab Safety Supply - EZ Facts Safety Info - Document #347, ANSI Z359 - A New Lift to Fall Protection Standards

And part of that discussion:

Another change to Z359.1 was the addition of requirements and markings for harnesses equipped with a front-mounted D-Ring or attachment. In the past, standard harnesses with a front mounted D-ring could utilize that D-ring attach point for ladder climbing, fall restraint or work positioning systems only. “The new standard offers an explanation, that the front D-ring attachment on a harness should be positioned within the sternum (at the breastbone) area of the body. The front D-ring attachment is intended for the use in rescue, work position, rope access, and other ANSI Z359.1 recognized applications where the design of the systems is such that only a limited free fall of two (2) feet is permitted.”


Joe

Interesting finds, Joe. I did some searching as well, and returned similar results, and wasn't able to corroborate John's statement. I didn't find the bit you did about 2' free fall, but I find that interesting. I have a fall arrest system spec'ed by Uncle Bill, with vertical lifelines on the ladders, wire rope grabs used on front D-rings with carabiners. There is not shock absorber in the system. I'm not on the OSHA page I had before which had the specific definitions, but in my mind I think of this part of my system as fall arrest.

 

[gafftaper]

Im big on safety as i have said before. Im still relatively new. FYI im a lighting tech ranging from deck elc to designer. The places iv worked i have never seen an harness, i also really havent thought about it much. If I feel unsafe i wont do it. But know im interested on this harness, where can check them out?

Giving advice on fall arrest systems is definitely outside the TOS of C.B. You need a pro to keep you alive. I would call/e-mail "Uncle Bill" at Sapsis. They sell everything you need. Explain what you want and how you want to use it and I'm sure he will help you put together your own safety bag. He would also be happy to give you some estimates on what it would cost to have proper safety lines installed in the building.

 

[TimMiller]

I would like to take a class in fall restraint systems and how to properly rig for repelling. I have just learned "on the job" but I am beginning to forget things, and would really like a professional refresher course.

 

[rosebudld]

I don't have a long reply to this.. but I'm guilty of the do as I say not as I do theory of direction.. so I just try to make sure that if anyone is in the air they wear their harnesses, and I try not to go up in front of them ever.. I'm comfortable (for the good or for the bad) working on lifts way up there, but in my older age (30 now ha ha) I've found that I'm more and more interested in taking the precautions to live another day.. so safety first because there always seems to be enough time to fix it later, but never enough time to do it right in the first place sadly enough..

 

[Jezza]

I don't have a long reply to this.. but I'm guilty of the do as I say not as I do theory of direction.. so I just try to make sure that if anyone is in the air they wear their harnesses, and I try not to go up in front of them ever.. I'm comfortable (for the good or for the bad) working on lifts way up there, but in my older age (30 now ha ha) I've found that I'm more and more interested in taking the precautions to live another day.. so safety first because there always seems to be enough time to fix it later, but never enough time to do it right in the first place sadly enough..

Agreed agreed.

Regardless of whether the front chest D-ring is now being spec'd as an attachment point for less than a 2' fall, I still wouldn't use it. On a ladder or vertical travel or positing point, I would hate to have my fall arrester in front of me. Seems like it would be continually slapping me in the face and getting in my way. Sure, I guess a front positioned arrest on a vertical ladder would prevent one from falling head first into the structure a little (as maybe a dorsal attachment would) however, I'd rather hedge my bets with a rear attachment. It just seems to me that it provides more of an occasion for lines to get fouled in other gear in the air having the arresting line/point that close to the structure you are supposedly climbing. I wonder what their reasoning is.

In any other situation (truss walking, focus, focus chair, catwalk work, etc) a dorsal attachment would seem to be preferable -- and is law.

The C67 you mention Charc has a waist oriented and a chest oriented front D-ring. The waist ring being used for positioning purposes and the chest one for arresting or accession on a vertical line. I thought you were referring to the waist oriented ring. (BTW, the C67 is a GREAT harness -- by far my favorite. If you can get the new 2008 version, do it! Its got a great new system for keeping the straps near the dorsal attachment spaced out and comfortable -- as well as a nifty new rear hauling ring. The FAST version is unnecessary though -- also seems like more of a liability. Buckles = bad.)

 

[Charc]

I thought about purchasing my own harness and either manyard or self-retracting fall limiter, but I think I've decided against it. In places I've been so far, fall arrest is not the norm, I won't be the young kid that sticks out like a sore thumb...

 

[gafftaper]

Jezza I want to point out that a lot of the advice you are getting in this thread is coming from a 17 year old who was trained in how to properly use the system installed in his theater. This is not meant in any way to be an insult to Charc (I love the spoiled, OSHA taunting, brat). The point is when I'm risking my life, I want the highest standard of training and expertise for MY equipment.

If I was to take up skydiving there's no way I would let Charc pack my chute. I would want an expert with thousands of jumps to pack it. What do I REALLY know about Charc? I know what he CLAIMS to be true about himself but for all I know he could be a 12 year old girl from Iowa who has never stepped foot in a real theater. The same is true for everyone around here. I've met Van in person and toured his theater... I KNOW who he is. But what about the rest of you? Are you really the experts you claim to be? What about well known industry guy Steve Terry... how do I know the person here claiming to be Steve Terry actually IS Steve Terry. HELLO, We're talking about the INTERNET here! Yes I'm starting to sound paranoid... but when you are talking about a device that can save your life or let you die because you didn't connect it correctly or buy the correct part... it's time to be paranoid. Trade a few P.M.'s with "Whatrigger?" and you'll find out that paranoia is a quality required by the job description.

So again I say take your questions to a real expert. Where are you at? We can help you find a real rigger. Or like I said before, e-mail/call a respected national dealer like Sapsis Rigging.

 

[Jezza]

Jezza I want to point out that a lot of the advice you are getting in this thread is coming from a 17 year old who was trained in how to properly use the system installed in his theater. This is not meant in any way to be an insult to Charc (I love the spoiled, OSHA taunting, brat). The point is when I'm risking my life, I want the highest standard of training and expertise for MY equipment.

If I was to take up skydiving there's no way I would let Charc pack my chute. I would want an expert with thousands of jumps to pack it. What do I REALLY know about Charc? I know what he CLAIMS to be true about himself but for all I know he could be a 12 year old girl from Iowa who has never stepped foot in a real theater. The same is true for everyone around here. I've met Van in person and toured his theater... I KNOW who he is. But what about the rest of you? Are you really the experts you claim to be? What about well known industry guy Steve Terry... how do I know the person here claiming to be Steve Terry actually IS Steve Terry. HELLO, We're talking about the INTERNET here! Yes I'm starting to sound paranoid... but when you are talking about a device that can save your life or let you die because you didn't connect it correctly or buy the correct part... it's time to be paranoid. Trade a few P.M.'s with "Whatrigger?" and you'll find out that paranoia is a quality required by the job description.

So again I say take your questions to a real expert. Where are you at? We can help you find a real rigger. Or like I said before, e-mail/call a respected national dealer like Sapsis Rigging.

Gaff, I appreciate your concern for both mine, and everyone else's safety on the board. I think the regardless of the differing opinions about what should and should not be discussed on the board, that those of us who air on the side of caution should be commended.

I originally started this thread over a year ago as an open discussion about fall arrest use in the industry as we know it -- particularly noting my personal experience with older stagehands and their lack of use of fall arrest. I myself always use fall arrest, and was curious as towards where the over arching anti-harness attitude came from. If you go back far enough in the post history, you'll remember it became quite a debate about what is and isn't kosher to discuss on CB -- we all have our different opinions or ideas.

I was intrigued to see the post re-kindled a week ago. When I saw Charc's statement about a front D-ring being used for fall arrest -- I jumped, because regardless of whether I "should" talk to him about this on the forum, I've always been trained to never use the front d-ring as an arresting point and didn't want his 17-year old death to be on my conscious when the paper's read "Young lighting designer dies due to improperly connected fall arrest". There's an element of compassion you cannot avoid on the forum. Am I taking advice on this subject from Charc? Never, no offense buddy. Would I listen to him about lighting fixtures and design ideas, of COURSE -- any day. But your right -- we really have no idea who these people are. (I do however know Charc DOES exist, however, that's not the point).

Charc is doing the right thing by talking with "Uncle Bill" to get a properly installed system -- I commend him for his efforts as well. Its great to have someone so young being so safety conscious.

AND CHARC -- NEVER STEER AWAY FROM SAFETY TO NOT BE THE SORE THUMB. I'll say it over and over again. Many of the venues I work at do NOT have installed fall arrest systems either because some of the locations don't fall into OSHA criteria for needing one or because if one was expensively installed, the majority of the crew being older, anti-harness stagehands, would not use them. I personally have my harness and arresting pack in my car at ALL times and just about every other gig whip it out when I've got to go truss walking or in the grid. Is the guy working next to me wearing a harness up there? No. Do I look like a dork with my big harness and lanyards and stuff? You betcha. Am I a little slower than he is? Sure. Am I SEVERELY increasing my probability in living in case I fall? Absolutely. Am I setting an example for the guys I work with, whether they like it or not? Yes, sure. Am I now the one who gets sent up to rig or focus more often? YES. Perhaps its because I'm getting good at what I do, or perhaps that the one or two minute difference it takes for me to strap up and travel around up there is worth it to my bosses in terms of KNOWING they have someone safe and strapped in up in the air. It's peace of mind for the person who hired you as well.

Another thing I should mention is that I, being somewhat new to the working at height and positioning ideas, am less confident in my own climbing/positioning abilities than some older stagehands, with lots of experience at height. Its safer for me, due to my lack of experience, to have strap up because the likelihood of me falling off the truss is probably greater than the guy next to me -- I KNOW that and make my decisions accordingly.

 

[TheSlowPoisoner]

The school that I worked at used a Genie and a prayer. Hell, they didn't even have as many safety chains as they had lights in use and their electrics were under-weighted before I got there, though, so I suppose they had bigger worries. To my knowledge, they didn't even HAVE harnesses, and I remember looking for them at some point.

 

[derekleffew]

Interesting appropriate anecdote.
The IA local here requires its members to wear a harness when in a scissor lift, but my venue does not. So there have been times when I, as a venue employer, have been in a lift with an IA guy (or gal) in a harness and I am au natural. Neither of us impugned the other--we were both following the rules to the letter of the law as they applied to us. We both felt safe and comfortable. This is the only instance I can think of for mixed use.

Elsewhere I've commented on the fact that only venue employees can operate venue-owned equipment. If equipment is rented by an outside company, anyone qualified can operate that equipment.

Now for articulating boom lifts, everyone inside must have fall protection, even when just driving the lift with the bucket 2' off the floor.

Disclaimer: These are the rules and standard operating procedures my venue. Other venues can and will vary. Always apply the most stringent of applicable rules when life-safety is involved, for yourself, regardless of what others do, say, or think. I AM NOT a 12 year-old girl, even though I like Hannah Montana. What can I say, it was a fun show for which to operate a spotlight.

 

[Charc]

I was intrigued to see the post re-kindled a week ago. When I saw Charc's statement about a front D-ring being used for fall arrest -- I jumped, because regardless of whether I "should" talk to him about this on the forum, I've always been trained to never use the front d-ring as an arresting point and didn't want his 17-year old death to be on my conscious when the paper's read "Young lighting designer dies due to improperly connected fall arrest". By the way, reading a previous post, I think we are mis-understanding each other, my vertical lifeline is directly infront of me, on the ladder, with maybe 1-3" of slack. There's an element of compassion you cannot avoid on the forum. Am I taking advice on this subject from Charc? Never, no offense buddy. Of course. Would I listen to him about lighting fixtures and design ideas, of COURSE -- any day. But your right -- we really have no idea who these people are. (I do however know Charc DOES exist, however, that's not the point). How do you know that? *gulp*

Charc is doing the right thing by talking with "Uncle Bill" to get a properly installed system -- I commend him for his efforts as well. Its great to have someone so young being so safety conscious. Yes, I don't know what happened to Bill though, I should follow up personally, but am away.

AND CHARC -- NEVER STEER AWAY FROM SAFETY TO NOT BE THE SORE THUMB. But if I set a precedent for safety that a theater then in turn has to provide to other employees out of expectation, I'll be the intern that costs 10,000. And the venue I have in mind wouldn't be all that easy to clip in while walking around, just while specifically hanging a light, not such a biggy. I think. It's still in the air, anyone have thoughts in PM? I'll say it over and over again. Many of the venues I work at do NOT have installed fall arrest systems either because some of the locations don't fall into OSHA criteria for needing one or because if one was expensively installed, the majority of the crew being older, anti-harness stagehands, would not use them. I personally have my harness and arresting pack in my car at ALL times and just about every other gig whip it out when I've got to go truss walking or in the grid. Is the guy working next to me wearing a harness up there? No. Do I look like a dork with my big harness and lanyards and stuff? You betcha. Am I a little slower than he is? Sure. Am I SEVERELY increasing my probability in living in case I fall? Absolutely. Am I setting an example for the guys I work with, whether they like it or not? Yes, sure. Am I now the one who gets sent up to rig or focus more often? YES. Perhaps its because I'm getting good at what I do, or perhaps that the one or two minute difference it takes for me to strap up and travel around up there is worth it to my bosses in terms of KNOWING they have someone safe and strapped in up in the air. It's peace of mind for the person who hired you as well.

Another thing I should mention is that I, being somewhat new to the working at height and positioning ideas, am less confident in my own climbing/positioning abilities than some older stagehands, with lots of experience at height. Its safer for me, due to my lack of experience, to have strap up because the likelihood of me falling off the truss is probably greater than the guy next to me -- I KNOW that and make my decisions accordingly.

I can't finish, gotta run!

Responses in teal.

 

[lieperjp]

It's amazing to me this thread has come up... I just was discussing this with a friend. We have a very large wooden A-Frame ladder with a center extension... about 18' high when fully extended. It is at least 10-15 years old. I refuse to go on it because there is no fall arrest and I don't believe it is safe after several "strengthening" adjustments (lower steps re-enforced with brackets) made by untrained college students. The discussion with my friend took a nasty turn when I said I believe the college should purchase fall-arrest equipment. But he said the college shouldn't waste the money... after all we are on a very tight budget. I said... I don't think safety is too expensive. But the only response I got was "well, it's only used by a few people and they are really careful when they are on it. They know the risks when they go on it and if something happens to them, well, it was their choice." Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. But I can (thankfully) say we do use a fall-arrest system (OSHA compliant) in our gym when going up on the 28-foot Aluminum A-Frame ladder (with center extension) and when using our Genie lift.

So, thank you, CB members, for reminding me and others that SAFETY IS IMPORTANT

p.s. does anyone know if volunteer organizations of private colleges must follow OSHA rules and regulations?

 

[derekleffew]

...Does anyone know if volunteer organizations of private colleges must follow OSHA rules and regulations?

I don't care one whit whether or not they must. They SHOULD, and if they won't, I'd be advising everyone who would listen to refuse to work at that venue. It's tragic when a professional such as Angus Sinex dies while in the employ of a respected lighting company. It's equally, if not more, tragic when a volunteer or student dies, not due to an "accident", but due to venue management's or another's poor judgment.

 

[gafftaper]

Lieper, Osha applies to employees. Students are technically not covered by OSHA. Now as Derek said of course institutions should be as concerned about student safety as employee safety. The interesting thing however is that in many cases student techs get paid at least occasionally. At that point they move into an interesting grey area that I believe OSHA would not tolerate.

As for your ladder of death. We had one of those in college back around 1989. It was an A-frame with a vertical extension that took you up to 17 feet. The thing was all wood with round dowel rungs. Best of all it was on a home made rolling cart with no outriggers! The only way to use it for lighting was to climb up to the top throw one foot over to the other side and straddle the top rung with your legs locked together a few rungs down. At 6'2" and around 200 pounds I went up it once and said no way. Our old T.D. would go up there and stand while straddling the top rung, with his feet only one rung down... IN COWBOY BOOTS! That ladder was older than dirt and scary as hell in 1989. It was in use until last fall when I convinced the current T.D. to spend $600 and get a small scaffold (didn't take a lot of persuasion).

Is anyone else concerned about Derek being perfectly comfortable working "au natural". I mean you are in Vegas and your life style is your business. But I personally don't want to see your "rigging" free while working on a scissor lift. Doesn't your venue have a no loose equipment overhead policy?

 

[jwl868]

Just to re-iterate: US OSHA regulations apply to employees and employors in the private sector. Many states extend the rules to the public sector employees. At a private college, I doubt that there any work situations that are exclusively done by nonemployees (students) that could also be done by employees (custodians, maintenece pepople, teachers) who are covered by OSHA rules. If it's not safe for the nonemployees, then its not safe for the employees, and that's a problem.

US OSHA regulations can be found in Title 29 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 1910 and 1926. The applicability of the regulations is described in 29 CFR 1910.5.

Also, US OSHA has a pretty good website.

Joe

 

[TimMiller]

I remember when i was getting my JLG certification they said that in an articulating boom lift every foot you are extended, it will catapult you 3 feet and the one i was getting my certification on would stretch out a good 12+ feet, so being thrown over 40 feet doesnt seem good, yet my boss said so it will throw you out a good 15 feet before your lanyard grabs ahold of you and throws your head into the side of the lift, which was a good point, its kinda one of those grey areas. About like our local college freaks about going up in a single man genie without a harness, yet the lanyard is so long, we can clip onto the grid, go down in the genie, reposition the genie and go back up without ever unclipping the lanyard. Doesnt make much since to me. When it comes to the scary ladder dance, i always refuse to go up, or if i can be convinced, i use a harness.

 

[Charc]

I remember when i was getting my JLG certification they said that in an articulating boom lift every foot you are extended, it will catapult you 3 feet and the one i was getting my certification on would stretch out a good 12+ feet, so being thrown over 40 feet doesnt seem good, yet my boss said so it will throw you out a good 15 feet before your lanyard grabs ahold of you and throws your head into the side of the lift, which was a good point, its kinda one of those grey areas. About like our local college freaks about going up in a single man genie without a harness, yet the lanyard is so long, we can clip onto the grid, go down in the genie, reposition the genie and go back up without ever unclipping the lanyard. Doesnt make much since to me. When it comes to the scary ladder dance, i always refuse to go up, or if i can be convinced, i use a harness.

Have you seen the new Miller Turbo Lite? Screw manyards! Pic 1 Info 1

 

[derekleffew]

Have you seen the new Miller Turbo Lite? Screw manyards! Pic 1 Info 1

From the specs on the model cited above:


Miller TurboLite PFL features include:

• First affordable alternative to shock-absorbing lanyards
• Extremely compact and lightweight (1.9 lbs. [.86kg]) provides 6 ft. (1.8m) working capacity lifeline; unit attaches directly to the harness back D-ring for greater mobility and versatility

That's nice; but in my venue I need a 50' working capacity. Also, it would be rather impractical when used on a truss with a horizontal lifeline. Let's try to avoid the term "Manyard" as it appears to be a proprietary product of one manufacturer.

 

[lieperjp]

I don't care one whit whether or not they must. They SHOULD, and if they won't, I'd be advising everyone who would listen to refuse to work at that venue. It's tragic when a professional such as Angus Sinex dies while in the employ of a respected lighting company. It's equally, if not more, tragic when a volunteer or student dies, not due to an "accident", but due to venue management's or another's poor judgment.

Most people ARE too afraid to go on it... I know of only 8 people who are comfortable enough to go on it, and I'm working to convince them it's not safe... As hard as I possibly can. I will be sending an official letter of complaint to the school once I go back and can take pictures...