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Short Lamp Life in Tungsten Movers?

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by gafftaper, Dec 9, 2006.

  1. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    I've noticed that the lamp life on the new Tungesten intelligent lights, like the TW1 and the VL1000, is really low. Only around 300 hours. Why is it that my tungsten hpl 575 comes in a 3000 hour model for $22 but a 300 hour lamp for the VL1000 costs $100. Why the dramatic price difference and the dramatic life differenence?
     
  2. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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    I think that it may have to do with the fact that the lamps in the movers have to have a much stronger filament to withstand the movement that they go through. And you can only make a filament that lasts a certain amount of time if it's being homed and moved and flipped upside down while it's hot.
     
  3. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    I think Soundlight is correct, But I bet when ship reads this question he'll fill you in !
    Duck
    Here comes 12 pages !
    :p :mrgreen: :p :mrgreen: :p
     
  4. PhantomD

    PhantomD

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    Don't be nasty :eek: I, just like you, really value the large contributions made to this forum by many members.

    <Had to truncate your smilies, it doesn't let me add another :p >
     
  5. TechiGoz

    TechiGoz Active Member

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    I agree with Soundlight also. Whilst the lamps may be similar for a tungsten, the
    'abuse' that they lamps go through whilst moving is tremendous. As a result, the manufactures have had to make stronger filaments and lamps themselves. Given that they are stronger, yet are moved around twice as much, the lamp life will vary in both life and price.
     
  6. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    I wasn't being nasty, just warning the newbies ! :mrgreen:

    Seriously, I love Ships knowledge on things like this. While I can tell you certain things from expirience Ship Knows Stuff and he's very good at passing it on. I menat no offense and hope it isn't taken that way.
     
  7. Footer

    Footer Senior Team Senior Team Premium Member

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    Beside the movement thing, I am sure it is due to color temp. Most moving light lamps have extremly high color temperatures to get the most out of that fixture. When you raise the color temp, you raise the wear on the lamp, and therefore you lower the life of the lamp. You can get different lamps for the S4, a 300 hour at 3200k and a 1500hr lamp at 3050k.
     
  8. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    I warned Ship in a private message conversation we were having that I was serving up a big fat pitch for him to knock out in this thread. He said he's been working a ton lately, so we may have to wait a bit.
     
  9. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    I’m not aware of a “TW1" fixture - who makes it, what type of lamp does it use? Just peeked my interest in a lamp/fixture combination I don’t know about.

    The VL-1000ERS fixture uses a Phillips or Ushio (origionally) OEM high output lamp that’s rated for 300hr at 100v, 115v, 220v, 230v, 240v, & 250v. There are no long life lamps for it out there at the moment, nor will there probably ever be given it’s attempting to be or emulate a moving light in output. One would think there should be a 120v lamp but I’m not aware of one. The 120v lamp would be sufficient for around 400hr at 115v I would think. Normally while dimmable, it’s not dimmed. Which lamp are you using the 100v or the 115v? If using the 100v, switch to the 115v lamp, that would improve your lamp life on both voltage spike problems and in general for applied voltage over the rated voltage of the lamp problems. If using the 115v lamp, check your voltage feeding the fixture and lower it to 115v or adjust the fixture so it feeds the fixture at 115v or perhaps even 112v to eek out some more lamp life. Should be able to adjust the maximum voltage/dimmer percentage on the fixture.

    Still for all intensive purposes - you pay for a highly refined high output lamp with a 11.5x11.5 to 10.5x14mm filament with a few other filament sizes in the mix dependant upon lamp and brand. This is a 29,000 Lumen lamp at 3,200̊K in color temperature. (That’s much brighter than a FEL lamp and with a much smaller filament - yet almost the same lamp life.) Sorry, I checked, there is no alternative lamps you can install in this fixture with a longer lamp life short of jacking up the lamp base by 9mm to compensate for a 230v FKJ lamp that has less output and even less expected lamp life. Or a 120v EGT lamp at 500hr in loosing a bit of output, but only if Osram’s EGT lamp is really 500hr and not less like most of the rest of the brands. Otherwise the EGT is no better and all have a much larger filament so any optics you planned to be using would be much worse. Just scrolled thru 42 pages of tables in 8pt text on bi-pin and pre-focus lamps (we are talking about a lot of lamps here.) There is no other lamps on the market that are as good as this VL-1K lamp in it’s voltage, wattage, output and lamp life. Short of adding a buck boost transformer and going 230v, than completely changing the lamp base and seat height to I believe a GX-16 and it’s seat height for a JS 100v-1000wB (if still available), there is no more powerful lamp out there, much less one with a smaller filament size. Possible but the GX-16 lamp base needs to be 12.5mm shorter in seat hight if it's going to work..

    In other words, this VL-1K lamp is the most efficient 1Kw lamp on the market. There are some G-9.5 heat lamps from Osram that if still available would potentially work also and in fact be higher output and possibly have a small enough filament and easily have a shorter seat height to jack up to but something about "heat lamp" in the lamp's description to me says that if available, such a lamp would be a bad thing within the electronics filled moving light fixture. Still if avalable, the Osram (no description) #54590 would be a really interesting 1Kw/120v, 2,000hr; 25,000 lumen lamp. You loose a bit in luminous output but gain a lot in lamp life. This given that "heat lamp" doesn't mean a halogen lamp that's a wee bit refined to produce more heat than light - that could be a wee problem inside a moving light fixture as said. Have a look for the FEL-R Osram lamp while looking for in theory discontinued lamps that have real use. #54584 as a part number. Only 300hr. but if the moving light used an ellipsoidal reflector (or in any Altman 1000 type follow spot,) the 15 to 20% more output that internal reflector does for output could potentially given this new VeriLite lamp a run for it's money by way of output but probably a larger filament to some extent in lost efficiency in that pin prick way. This lamp was the fore runner to my highly toughted HPR lamps.

    Still, in the end, perhaps that’s what you are paying for in a VL-1K lamp. If you must have a 1Kw halogen lamp, this is the most efficient 1Kw halogen lamp on the market. First time I did a search on such lamps in this way, I'm fairly certain at this point that this is the most efficient lamp you can get and that there is no long life alternatives that would even with modification to the fixture work as well. You get what you pay for.



    HPL lamps are not nearly as efficient in luminous output but has comparatively just as compact a filament - dependant upon the lamp. 9.5x6.8mm to 13.5x8.5mm with also lots of variation in filament size. It’s smaller in filament size for the most part because it’s a smaller wattage lamp. Sorry, no such thing as a 3,000hr lamp life HPL lamp. 2,000hr on some of the more modern long life lamps but in going long life you loose close to 1/7th of the output. The HPL lamp is designed for lots of situations where one might need 115v or 120v lamps say and can deal with a loss of output in exchange for a longer lamp life. The standard High Output HPL lamp is rated for the same 300hr @ 115v as the 7002Y VL-1K lamp above.

    So, the life difference is the same and one can also lean on the fact that your HPL lamps are much more likely to live their life at varying levels of dimming, while the moving light fixture will normally be at full output thus life less in life.

    As for price on the lamps - I don’t pay that price for either lamp of course. I don’t have any notes on various standard retail price of the VL-1K lamp, but do know that even by our standard markup of the worst price I have a quote on, that would be a fairly bad price you are paying for the lamp. Perhaps shop around and that’s the extent I will go into for that or either lamp. Perhaps if buying the Phillips lamp, look into the Ushio lamp that frequently is cheaper in price.

    Another option for you is if you cannot afford to lamp the fixture, perhaps it’s time to sell it off for something you can afford to lamp. Something in the MSD 250/2 range or MSD 200/2 range of lamp perhaps.

    Pop a MSD 200/2 lamp into a fixture rated for a MSD 200 lamp and you now not only have 1/6 more color temperature but you now have a 3,000 hour lamp in the fixture - good lamp same output.

    Pop a MSA 300 or HSD 250w/UL/75 into a fixture rated for a MSD 250/2 lamp and you now have a lamp that’s rated for 6,000 hours in lamp life. In this case you will loose a bit in color temperature and luminous output but gain 1.1/2 the lamp life normal to a MSD 250/2. Lots one can do with a MSD 250/2 type fixture - one can go color temperature ranging from 6,000̊K to 8,500̊K and lots of variation between. Can probably even color correct the 6,000̊K lamp down to the 3,200̊K color temperature of a VL-1K fixture in using some half minus color correcting gel or filter. That or leave the color temperature the same in that the MSD 250/2 lamp types are only about as powerful as a 750w HPL lamp. IN reality, somewhere between a long life and high output 750w HPL lamp. Leave the color temperature higher and while it won’t persay be putting out the same luminous output, it will appear to be as bright or brighter. What is it the Mac 250E? Perhaps it would be suitable amongst many types of fixture - different yes, but if lamp life is killing you perhaps a longer life lamp. Retail for these types of lamps should be somewhere in the $120 to $150.00 range but last much longer. At a minimum, even if only using a 2,000 hour lamp, it’s still going to have 7x the lamp life for say 1.5x the cost.

    Some fixture using a MSR 400 MSR 400HR or MSR 400SA lamp is the closest thing in output to that of a VL-1K lamp. (None would be used in the most state of the art fixtures but there are fixtures that use each of these lamp types. Some of these lamps especially the MSR 400HR is even dimmable. This given that dimming arc source lamps instead of lengthening the lamp life normally will shorten it.) The HSD 400 is rated for 2,000 hours and should be around the range of price of your VL-1K lamps (have not priced them out.) Dependant upon what data you have from Phillips, the MSR 400HR is either good for 750 or 1,000 hours. The MSR 400SA is for 750hr and all of these lamps should retail in about the range of a VL-1K lamp. Ok, more like the $150.00 range. Still, at least double the lamp life at 1.5x the cost.

    The VL-1K fixture is a nice fixture - used to have a rack full of them at work. Not many designers are requesting them these days - always the newer and better fixture out there especially these days the VL-5/VL-500D also halogen. Sold off most of them if not all of them at this point. That fixture stands out in my memory specifically due to the meat rack they hung from. Some driver pulled out of the dock before he made sure his load was strapped in. The entire rack full of them took a header off the rear end of the truck... - that was an expensive and rush repair.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2006
  10. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Na, I have a thick skin and take jives well. Granted at times I get a hot head but that’s what it was. No cause to make nice as long as friendly with me. I understand my replies are at times in need of a bit of editing to cut out but still if useful be informative.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2006
  11. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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  12. Andrewr

    Andrewr Member

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    An interesting thing to note on these is that VL-1k's seem very sensitive to the quality of your dimmers. I have Strand SLD dimmers. Originaly they were set to default and the VL's were eating lamps......

    Dimmers set to limit output to 230v (the rated voltage on the lamp!) and I haven't had to replace a lamp in over a year, with 5 fixtures. Which is good, considering they shredded the screws on the lamp fitting before I got here :neutral:

    I don't think thats down to it just being the right voltage. I have a bunch of Source4's in the foyer that are on rubbish dimmers, and they eat lamps too!

    Have you metered your mains? We have the supply at 247-249v at the dimmers. Not bad considering it should be 230 :evil:
     
  13. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    Thanks Ship that was very interesting. Sorry it took so long to get back to you. We just had a heck of a storm here in the Pacific Northwest and I've been withtout internet for several days.

    Yeah TW1 is the new Martin moving head CMY tungesten wash light. It's pretty cool and an interesting contrast to the VL1000. I'm looking at buying a couple of both for a college theater. You have now answered questions about it in another thread though so I got the info I was looking for there. Thanks.
     
  14. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    I have already contacted Phillips vendor reps about the actual specs on the lamp. I'm told we had one of the TW-1's in the shop for a few hours a few weeks back. "Nice fixture." Not that I would know the difference or in seeing one fixture over another in the shop care. In a serious way, while I might have a look at the new follow spot, I have no idea one fixture to another of any wiggle lights - I just buy the lamps for them and leave it at that.
     

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