Side debate about low budget consoles


Low budget? Your going to end up spending $1200 just to get one universe and the "gadget." I think HOG is the only other major manufacturer that charges those kinds of prices. You can run a single universe of AVO, Grand MA, Chamsys, or Martin for less than the cost of just ETC's "gadget." Then your need a computer and a touch screen, so add another $1000 to that total and your at $2200. Then add another $4000 for a programming wing and you might as well buy an Ion and get at least two universe from it for the same price or probably less.
The nomad setup works for some instances, like you already have a console in the EOS or Cobalt family and want something to act as a backup console, or network with that console. You have to already be fully entrenched into EOS or Cobalt ecosystem for this to make any kind of financial sense in my mind. There is nothing they offer that I could justify to my boss that makes it worth spending $1200 on it when spending $200 would get me similar results from one of the other large console manufacturers.
 
Personally, I had an old laptop laying around that I can use for my Nomad rig. I have never found touchscreens to be useful when programming or running, you just get fingerprints on a screen when it would be faster to just type the commands in. The keyboard works perfectly well for all things I have used it for—and I can switch to any Eos console and not be slowed by searching for where the buttons are. Even if I needed a full universe, that would only be $1200. But it isn't even really that that you pay for, it's the unparalleled technical support that will walk you through fixing it instead of passing your call around the office until the product is out of warranty.

I use Nomad primarily in venues that either have no other console or still operate off of a 24-channel, 2-scene preset that can only record 50 cues (I'm looking at you, Leprecon 624—which, by the way, costs $1700 for less than a tenth of the functionality and seriously lacking tech support).

It really depends on the places you work, what you're comfortable with, and how you work that determine the console. Nomad makes sense for someone in my position—constantly shifting between small venues in an area where the larger venues all have Eos. It doesn't make sense as a venue-owned main board.
 
Smartfade

You said it, not me. ETC's even cheaper and worse solution. :wall:

and the near astronomic cost makes the Nomad an incredibly inconvenient solution for the small venue market

But the point is that Nomad lets you buy what you need. A small venue doesn't need 17 universes. They tend to need less than half of one and run off of donations, as possible. $700 is a darn good price for a console for a small theater, especially one with all those features. Even with the SmartFade, you're spending $2500 for a VERY limited glorified DJ board.

You'd spend way more than $700 on any other controller (unless you went ADJ, Chauvet, or the like).

That being said, I always recommend non-Nomad for venues themselves but recommend Nomad for theater companies and individuals.
 
You said it, not me. ETC's even cheaper and worse solution. :wall:



But the point is that Nomad lets you buy what you need. A small venue doesn't need 17 universes. They tend to need less than half of one and run off of donations, as possible. $700 is a darn good price for a console for a small theater, especially one with all those features. Even with the SmartFade, you're spending $2500 for a VERY limited glorified DJ board.

You'd spend way more than $700 on any other controller (unless you went ADJ, Chauvet, or the like).

That being said, I always recommend non-Nomad for venues themselves but recommend Nomad for theater companies and individuals.

Your not getting a physical controller though. And if your fine with a universe or less then a universe of Grand MA 2, AVO Titian, or Martin MPC can be had for under $200. You could spend $700 and get martins touch wing thing to have a physical control surface. Or just buy a used express for pennies, it's not like your going to need a lot of fancy moving light controls with only half or a single universe.
 
Grand MA 2: $57,000-$80,000
AVO Titan: $4,000 EDIT: I see now a $250 for a Nomad-similar product.
Martin M-PC: $600+$60 shipping.

Used Expresses run $1500 at the cheapest—and those are for the heavily used, rarely cleaned ones.

I guess I just don't understand the boards you listed or where you can buy an $80,000 board for $200. I'll give you Martin M-PC because it is $40 cheaper. But if you think that $1500-$2500 is pennies, what's an extra $40?

As for the Titan, yeah, it's cheaper. I never liked AVO's approach to the UI or the commands. For me, that extra bit of money was worth it to get something I like.
 
Grand MA 2: $57,000-$80,000
AVO Titan: $4,000 EDIT: I see now a $250 for a Nomad-similar product.
Martin M-PC: $600+$60 shipping.

Used Expresses run $1500 at the cheapest—and those are for the heavily used, rarely cleaned ones.

I guess I just don't understand the boards you listed or where you can buy an $80,000 board for $200. I'll give you Martin M-PC because it is $40 cheaper. But if you think that $1500-$2500 is pennies, what's an extra $40?

As for the Titan, yeah, it's cheaper. I never liked AVO's approach to the UI or the commands. For me, that extra bit of money was worth it to get something I like.


Lets compare apples to apples here, not hardware solutions to software solutions.


Chamsys Magic Q you can run a universe for $15 if you can work with their 5 hours at a time limit. Or you can spend $100 and get it without the time limit. And if you want more you can get up to 64 universes for free over artnet, sACN, etc. Granted your going to spend a ton of money on hardware to get all those universe out to copper.

Avolites Titan One, you can get a full universe for $250, and probably a whole lot less.

Martin M-PC, you can get a free universe, but will have to spend somewhere around $60 for a third party USB to DMX adapter, and can buy hardware to give you additional universes for not much money.

ETC nomad is going to cost ~$900 for a universe, and another $200 for the usb to dmx adapter.

And you can buy a used express for a lot less than $1500. Remember just because you see someone asking so much for something doesn't mean it's worth that much, or that someone will pay that much for it.
 
You said it, not me. ETC's even cheaper and worse solution.
Another one of those yuppies that doesn't understand a certain market (small theatre and church), so thinks it is terrible...

a VERY limited glorified DJ board.
...and has never seen or used one.

Even with the SmartFade, you're spending $2500
The SmartFade ML can be purchased for closer to $2000 than $2500. The SmartFade 2496 is less than $1500. The SmartFade 1296 is around $1400. The SmartFade 1248 is less than $1200.

Maybe next time do a little research so you actually know something about what you are talking about!
 
You said it, not me. ETC's even cheaper and worse solution. :wall:
The SmartFade ML is a well-designed, well-executed desk for what it is. If you're running movers and have any need to busk, it's way, WAY better than the Element. Does it have limitations and specific use cases it's designed for? Yes. Does it suck? Not in the least.
 
Another one of those yuppies that doesn't understand a certain market (small theatre and church), so thinks it is terrible...


...and has never seen or used one.


The SmartFade ML can be purchased for closer to $2000 than $2500. The SmartFade 2496 is less than $1500. The SmartFade 1296 is around $1400. The SmartFade 1248 is less than $1200.

Maybe next time do a little research so you actually know something about what you are talking about!

I've used a smart fade in a small theater, and I've used DJ boards plenty of times. I don't hate the smart fade, but I would never, I repeat NEVER, recommend it. It's last generation technology at a current generation price, and I find it limiting to use. A scaled down element that worked with existing expansions and had a way to add a few universes over time would be a game changer. Say a base unit with 256 channels of output, 1 bank of faders, a monitor out (with support for Windows touchscreens), and the standard etc keypad layout that could add up to 2 universes, another screen, and ML control via a second wing for about $2,500 a wing. Nothing like that exists, and it would dominate the market easily.
 
I've used a smart fade in a small theater, and I've used DJ boards plenty of times. I don't hate the smart fade, but I would never, I repeat NEVER, recommend it. It's last generation technology at a current generation price, and I find it limiting to use. A scaled down element that worked with existing expansions and had a way to add a few universes over time would be a game changer. Say a base unit with 256 channels of output, 1 bank of faders, a monitor out (with support for Windows touchscreens), and the standard etc keypad layout that could add up to 2 universes, another screen, and ML control via a second wing for about $2,500 a wing. Nothing like that exists, and it would dominate the market easily.

If you do all the expansion at that price range then your risk undercutting the full size elements and Ions.
 
I got really annoyed with this side debate taking over the ETC 4WRD thread so I removed it.

People buy ETC products because of their proven reliable performance and long term commitment to service. To get that you have to pay for it. That means Smartfade and Nomad cost more than the competitors. ETC also designs, develops, and builds their own products as much as possible in Middleton Wisconsin. You pay a premium for the fact that they do their own science and create their own products. Want a cheaper product, there are plenty of knock offs out there on Ebay straight from China. They may even perform almost as well, but you have to live with the Karma/Guilt of knowing that you purchased the knock off instead of rewarding @STEVETERRY 's team for all their hard work creating it originally.

Finally. There is a perfect product for every budget and every need. It drives me CRAZY when people trash talk a product like the SmartFade without understanding that it's not designed for you. It's designed for another person, on another budget. That doesn't make it bad, just not right for you. I personally don't like using Smartfade. But I've advised multiple people to buy them, because it's reliable, well supported, and the right product for their budget and needs. In fact I'm about to design a small lighting system for my kids' school and I'm probably going to put a Smartfade in it. Because whether I personally like it to use one or not, it's the right tool for the job and the budget.
 
I'm going to jump in here just because I really like the ETC Smartfade boards - both the ML and the non-ML. For the price, they are fantastic. They do things other boards in their featureset don't. The non-ML Smartfades are great for the rental market, where I can tell someone to set their look with their mix of conventionals and LED cans, press the record button, and press the button of the handle they want to store it to. Very useful with how prevalent LEDs are becoming today, we have two flavors of LED pars in addition to some other LED products, and being able to send out a Smartfade with a dozen LED fixtures and some conventionals is the easiest way to teach Joe Schmoe at the church two towns over how to run the scenes for his Christmas show. Any of the other products in this category have too few features or too many. And unlike with a Leprecon I don't have to jump through hoops to get to the scenes - I just press the "MEMS" button and I'm there. Nothing extra.

As far as the ML goes, I know how to use it, really well. If you don't, it's going to frustrate you to no end. If you do, it's going to serve you well. I will say that training someone on that thing can be a real pain. It's either someone who knows nothing about movers and doesn't understand half the words that come out of my mouth, or someone who's accustomed to MA/Hog/Martin and doesn't understand the operating philosophy. So I'm screwed both ways.

All in all, don't knock it till you've tried it. Really tried it. It's not replacing an Express. It's not asking to be a real desk. It's filling a need, filling a market that is real, and providing a very, very good solution for that market.

Will I take them over all else? No. My day-to-day weapon of choice is still MA1. MA2 is about equal as far as me liking it but costs more to rent so I generally take the series 1 desk. Martin M-series after that, and then I still find myself on HOG1000s from time to time. I'm a jack of all trades in a company that's a jack of all trades though, so I gotta be hella flexible.
 
Although I have never used a smartfade before, I feel it would be a PERFECT small console for churches, small schools, etc... I think that (especially in churches) when there isn't the same person running lighting for every show, it would be extremely difficult for someone that does not have extensive lighting knowledge to jump into nomad and do a show. That person would have a much easier time running a show on a smartfade. If a usual church lighting person gets sick the day of service, and can't do the show, someone else would be able to take his place and run the show on a smartfade.

I also feel that nomad is called nomad for a reason. It is meant for on-the-go type situations. Although I LOVE to have an actual console in front of me, I like software solutions for being able to throw my interface, some ethernet cables, and my laptop in my bag and being able to go do a last-minute show.

Just my 2 cents
 
Although I have never used a smartfade before, I feel it would be a PERFECT small console for churches, small schools, etc... I think that (especially in churches) when there isn't the same person running lighting for every show, it would be extremely difficult for someone that does not have extensive lighting knowledge to jump into nomad and do a show. That person would have a much easier time running a show on a smartfade. If a usual church lighting person gets sick the day of service, and can't do the show, someone else would be able to take his place and run the show on a smartfade.

That's exactly right. I don't personally like to use smartfade because I am used to a different type of console interface. But churches, schools, small clubs who have lots of volunteers and people who need a lot of power without a lot of training are perfect for smartfade. Thus, it's a right tool for the right job device.

It drives me crazy when people start talking about any product being junk. Because it just shows your own bias and snobbery. There are theaters out there still running 40 year old Colortran two scene presets who would love a budget big enough to buy a used Smartfade. The only thing I will call junk is a product that is blatantly copied from another brand's product.
 

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