SJO cable in a theater

1900 type quad boxes when I see them are destroyed and not sent back to the company that made them even if marked as to owner when they don't get back to the owner.

I know this is an very old post, but Destroying other peoples property, is not the way to deal with this. It is illegal, and you will probably at some point be charged for the equipment, and if you don't pay, you will be sued and probably loose. Try to be a professional about the situation.

Well aware of that. However, with the number of exceptions out there for to allow for SJ cable I'm not really sure if I see the point anymore. The whip of a fixture and a lead of a soca breakout get the most abuse out of any cabling and yet we are OK with SJ there. Just don't run SJ between the two. I do get the point of the SO everywhere stuff. We spent 30k on cable to ensure we had SO everywhere just a few years ago. We are already in the phase where we are running powercon or powercon-True1 on everything and daisy chaining. Unless there is someone doing it that I'm not aware of, I have only seen those jumpers built out of SJ cable. Both Lex and Whirlwind do SJ as standard on these types of connectors. It might not be right, but it is being done. I put it right up there with the 3 pin DMX thing. Might not be right, but it became industry standard anyway.

Very true. Most fixtures and extensions these days from manufactures are NOT SO cable. I don't think powercon true one connectors can even fit over so cable, at least they do not appear to be designed for it.
NEC had a lot of gaps in the code, and it is very slow to adapt to modern technologies. Although people will argue with me, and they will be WRONG. NEC IS NOT THE LAW. It's codes are adopted by many jurisdictions, but requirements vary.
 
The exceptions allowing SJ and derivatives are quite restrictive. The vast majority of cables in the theatre still need to be type S or derivatives

Late breaking news: Note that SJ and derivatives are currently allowed for luminaire supply cords up to 1.0 m (3.3'). There is a proposal in for the 2017 NEC which would increase this length to 2.0 m (6.6'). It has already passed the First Draft phase of the process. Curiously, I wrote that proposal. If allowed, I think it will improve the utility of our systems without a safety compromise.

However, I don't agree that luminaire cords and breakouts "get the most abuse out of any cabling....." They are not subject to crush and slit hazards in the same way that long jumpers in the path of rolling or flying scenery are.

Finally, while some people may not like the Extra Hard Usage requirement, it's currently mandated by the NEC, which means it's the rule with no options for article 520 venues. This is not comparable to the 3-pin vs. 5-pin DMX cable example, where there is no Code involved.

As I've said before, if you want to change the NEC, submit a Public Input with compelling evidence as to why the requirement should be relaxed. Your first opportunity will be for the 2020 NEC. But meanwhile, please don't suggest or imply on this forum that non-NEC-compliant solutions are OK because they are common practice.

ST
Steve, Can you please provide links to ETC's SO powercon products? I think a lot of users here would like to have a reliable source for SO extensions and jumper for all the recent products on the market that use powercon and powercon true1 pass-thru.
 
Steve, Can you please provide links to ETC's SO powercon products? I think a lot of users here would like to have a reliable source for SO extensions and jumper for all the recent products on the market that use powercon and powercon true1 pass-thru.

FWIW they list 5 and 10 ft jumpers, and 5 ft to bare, edison. pin, or twist lock in their price list. 6 products.

(I know my name isn't Steve but I happened to have the price list open for another project so toss this in.)
 
Just as interesting side note on this topic:

As I price these rubberized electrical boxes, it seems the 3 suppliers are;

- OA Windsor, potentially out of business.
- Woodhead/Molex
- Leviton.

My pricing via some local dealers;

- Levition, black, standard depth dual duplex, no receptacles, 2 duplex covers - $249 per box ($169 for the box, $40 ea. cover, 2 required)
- Woodhead/Molex, black, standard depth, no receptacles, with 2 duplex covers - $45.05 ea.
 
The exceptions allowing SJ and derivatives are quite restrictive. The vast majority of cables in the theatre still need to be type S or derivatives

Late breaking news: Note that SJ and derivatives are currently allowed for luminaire supply cords up to 1.0 m (3.3'). There is a proposal in for the 2017 NEC which would increase this length to 2.0 m (6.6'). It has already passed the First Draft phase of the process. Curiously, I wrote that proposal. If allowed, I think it will improve the utility of our systems without a safety compromise.

However, I don't agree that luminaire cords and breakouts "get the most abuse out of any cabling....." They are not subject to crush and slit hazards in the same way that long jumpers in the path of rolling or flying scenery are.

Finally, while some people may not like the Extra Hard Usage requirement, it's currently mandated by the NEC, which means it's the rule with no options for article 520 venues. This is not comparable to the 3-pin vs. 5-pin DMX cable example, where there is no Code involved.

As I've said before, if you want to change the NEC, submit a Public Input with compelling evidence as to why the requirement should be relaxed. Your first opportunity will be for the 2020 NEC. But meanwhile, please don't suggest or imply on this forum that non-NEC-compliant solutions are OK because they are common practice.

ST
I'm going to agree with footer on breakouts and whips getting more abuse than say a 10' extension cable. So having a breakout and a whip using SJ making up say 12', and than putting a 10' SO cable in between is quite silly. Also if you are worried that moving scenery or rolling equipment is going to cut your cable, then you already messed up; don't put your cable there, or use an appropriate protection method like yellow jackets. Using SO cable is not an excuse to be sloppy or run cables in locations that can cause damage.

If you are smashing into a truss or baton with a piece of scenery, than you have a much bigger danger to deal with in training your staff.

The analogy of SJ being like using 3-pin DMX does not hold water though. A better analogy is that SJ cable is like jaywalking. It's illegal most places but, a lot of people do it, it's often perfectly safe, and mostly you won't get in trouble for doing it.

I think what Footer was getting at, was that the codes will eventually change to allow SJ in more situations in the future.

I have not endorsed violation of any codes or laws. I am not trying to contradict the codes. I am not recommending anything; I just posted my observations.
 
Mike, If you feel strongly about it, submit the change yourself! Thats what I believe Bill was getting at.
 
I have a question that partially applies to this discussion. I work for a company that provides decor for high end events. We generally operate under NEC 518 and use primarily SJO cable. At most of our events there is a stage with a band on it. We are in a public assembly space but there is a stage in it. According to to NEC 520 because there is a stage all cable used on stage should be SO but would the area not on stage be an "audience area" and require SO or still be a "public assembly space" and still allow SJO?
 
At most of our events there is a stage with a band on it. We are in a public assembly space but there is a stage in it. According to to NEC 520 because there is a stage all cable used on stage should be SO but would the area not on stage be an "audience area" and require SO or still be a "public assembly space" and still allow SJO?

This is covered in 518.2(C). The stage area and "associated audience seating areas" must comply with section 520. There's probably some room for interpretation on exactly where to draw the line between what's associated or not. If you want to make sure you're covered, then arranging the room to provide a clear distinction would be to your advantage.
 
I've had versions of this discussion with a guy here who always points out that we may be the only ones that even know about the issue.

So I ask, has anyone ever been called on it by an inspector (mistakes happen), or even had them check?
 
Mike, If you feel strongly about it, submit the change yourself! Thats what I believe Bill was getting at.
Nah, I try not to make decisions based on feelings. I like to remain objective.

I've had versions of this discussion with a guy here who always points out that we may be the only ones that even know about the issue.

So I ask, has anyone ever been called on it by an inspector (mistakes happen), or even had them check?

I don't know who all these mysterious inspectors are or where they come from. I see Fire Marshals some times, and they just want egress open, electrical panels accessible, fire extinguishers for pyro, and every once in a while fire retardant certs on soft-goods.

Usually I am the one correcting other peoples much more egregious mistakes (like mounting Male cams as the outputs of a disconnect, or making custom soca that mixes 120 and 208)
 
Nah, I try not to make decisions based on feelings. I like to remain objective.



I don't know who all these mysterious inspectors are or where they come from. I see Fire Marshals some times, and they just want egress open, electrical panels accessible, fire extinguishers for pyro, and every once in a while fire retardant certs on soft-goods.

Usually I am the one correcting other peoples much more egregious mistakes (like mounting Male cams as the outputs of a disconnect, or making custom soca that mixes 120 and 208)

That would be ELECTRICAL INSPECTORS. The ones that inspect and approve electrical work and the like. Without pulling electrical permits you may of indeed not had one in your space for a very long time.
 
In theory the Fire Marshals can call you on an electrical question. If anyone gets stuffy they can call an electrical inspector, but the show won't go on. The issue is whether they know/care to look!

I side with "doing the right thing" and it doesn't even cost much in this case.
 
I would like to agree with everyone stating that SJ cable is in extreme widespread use throughout the United States. Many times I have rented from the national lighting and AV rental houses with multiple locations and received 12/3 SJ cable.
 
I would like to agree with everyone stating that SJ cable is in extreme widespread use throughout the United States. Many times I have rented from the national lighting and AV rental houses with multiple locations and received 12/3 SJ cable.

And people drive above the speed limit in a lot of places. When there is an event - an accident or fire - they'll pay for it. Then we could talk about pyro on stage too. Probably lost of people ignore those rules and regulations.
 

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