Small Cheap Sound Board?

Phil, I'm by no means a Sound Engineer, but I thought the multiple speaker systems were much more advanced and preferable to two speaker systems, inline with the apron?
Properly configured with the correct electronic processing and routing.
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This sounds like a mess.
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You can over complicate a sound system too.
(not with color changers though)
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A multiple system as you call it, could just be a simple cluster, a surround setup or a line array.
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They vary widely in cost and uses.
 
... I thought the multiple speaker systems were much more advanced and preferable to two speaker systems, inline with the apron?
I did a gig in a country club near my home that spent around $70,000 on new in-ceiling speakers from JBL. Frankly, I wasn't impressed at all...
In-ceiling speakers can sound fine if used for their intended purpose - in this case, making announcements and hearing the office page people, etc. In your case, it seems they are not for sound reinforcement - they are for sound distribution so that there is general coverage without too great an emphasis on quality (intelligibility, maybe).

You can put together a killer rig with only a small number of speakers...in fact, unless processed and arrayed/splayed properly, more cabinets can (and often do) equal more mess/hassle. Keeping the rig simple allows for quick and efficient troubleshooting and also means that practically anyone can be taught how to operate and correctly patch the system and its components.

Back to the OP...as far as mixers go, I still say stick with a Mackie. Get a 1604VLZ3 or whatever best suits your application. If you want to get a really nice small format analog board, go for a ProRack House from APB Dynasonics. A Yamaha 01V96 would be my choice for digital as it's a great workhorse. Also keep in mind that you should be able to use this stuff in the future for other things that the school may have up its sleeve(s).

As for the Soundcraft remark...I agree that the majority of their boards are great to work on/with, but the Spirit series didn't float my boat.
 
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The old sound board, unfortunatly... broke, for a lack of better term. Its not a bad thing... it was a piece of Soundcraft garbage. With the new system there are two speakers up on stage pointing toward the audiance. The old system has the house speakers overhead all throughout the auditeria. The purpose is so that we can get different effect. Have a narrator or backgound music playing through the overheads, and have the actors or sound effects that would normally come form the stage as if (for example) a phone was really ringing.

I saw the other posts following this --

Even though you may not expect to get any great quality sound out of the ceiling speakers, you could use them for effect, ambience, voices "from above", etc. I would certainly consider the two speakers on stage as your primaries though ... but kind of neat if you can tap into different sound sources in the room for different effects.
 
For the "multiple speaker system" I was referring to, it seems like we're making mention of different things. You talk about $70k for "paging speakers". The type of system I was referring to I've seen implemented in a couple of regional theaters in Philly, I just don't know how to describe it, other than there were more that two, and they were used to shift the perception of where sound was coming from, put it wasn't necessarily point source sound effects.

I'm pretty sure it would be something along the lines of speaker zoning. ZDM (Zoned Dual Mono) comes to mind from the Old SoundMan of PSW...

And, you are partly correct about the paging speakers. When referring to the OP's in-ceiling system, I was talking about paging speakers (thanks for the term - I didn't know how to phrase it). :grin:
However, the $70k install I was talking about did NOT include paging speakers, but were for use as a spoken word/ambient music system. It performed its duty fine (good coverage from what I recall), I just didn't like the way it sounded. I think the ceilings were too high for the speakers to be as effective as intended by the manufacturer.

+1 for the effect type of thing. It could come in handy, and I'm sure you could find a way to make it work for a certain type of effect or show.
 
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Hey Sync... First agree that your Soundcraft board was a good board. How is it broken? Can it be repaired? I know you live in the middle of nowhere but repair may be a good option. I pointed out a while back that Sweetwater has a little Yamaha MG102c for $100 including free shipping. That's FAR more board for your money than a Behringer. If you want to stay under $100 then go Tapco Sweetwater has three options under $70.

Howlingwolf the guy's looking for a $75 mixer... the Mackie 1640 Vlz3 is an $800 mixer.

Sync, Museav makes some really good points. I used to teach High School drama on no budget so I do understand where you are coming from here. But I've also seen plenty of students who don't understand how something was intended to work and so they call it junk and try to do their own thing (which may be inferior). While it could be that what they have already is more than enough and if they just had a little training. As in your lighting thread I suggest you post some pictures of your existing equipment so that we can get a better idea of what you have and what you are trying to do. It may be that we can teach you a better way to use what you already have.

Finally you talk about having this board so you can run effects through it. Just what do you want to do? If your new portable setup is so much better why do you want to run effects through the other speakers? Do you have a reverb unit or some other sort of effects device to run through this other board?
 
OK here's my two cents worth:
1) Soundcraft has long been a respectable brand. Up until a few years ago I did monitors on an old Series 400B. I would say that's one of the oldest boards I've worked on that is still fully functional and is a testament to Soundcraft's quality. That being said, somtimes electronics fail. It happens to the best of us, usually right before a show. Just because it broke, doesn't make it bad.

2) I would be willing to bet the speakers installed in the ceiling are paging speakers. given that you say they all run off one amp, I'd bet they are also on a 70v distributed system. These systems are not *usually* designed for anything more than the occasional announcements or background music. Rather than throw money at a problem till you stumble across a solution, I might recommend that you accept that the ceiling speaker are not the right tool for the job, and put you effects in your new mains where it belongs. The concepts of using multiple speakers for fancy effects that has come up elsewhere in this thread is a good concept, but I suspect not even in the same ballpark as your situation.
3) As I understand your project, you want to take a line off of the "show console" in the middle of the floor, send it to a mixer in the booth where you will modulate it with some sort of effect, and then send it to the overheads. Is this right? Perhaps there is a better idea to consider. How about putting your effects out at the "show console", send a line level feed back down your snake on a return, and use a transformer to plug that feed int the mic jack that your principle uses to make announcements.
This benefits you two ways. First and foremost, it gives control of the effects to the person in the house who can hear them best, rather than requiring another person to run them from the booth. Benefit two, you can find a level matching transformer much cheaper than a mini-mixer.
BTW, that big box in the light booth with all the circuit breakers and noisy fan, that's you dimmer rack. I know it's noisy but at least it's enclosed in the booth. I have one venue where mine is on a balcony above the stage left wingspace. You can hear the fan clear out into the house.
Good luck and happy hunting.
Matt
 
BTW, that big box in the light booth with all the circuit breakers and noisy fan, that's you dimmer rack. I know it's noisy but at least it's enclosed in the booth. I have one venue where mine is on a balcony above the stage left wingspace. You can hear the fan clear out into the house.
Good luck and happy hunting.
Matt

The high school I used to teach at had it's dimmer rack behind the proscenium wall less than 2 feet from the stage. There was just barely enough room for someone to stand and operate the grand. You listened to it the whole show.
 
Seems to be the common problem of not enough information leading to numerous assumptions and misconceptions.

Distributed systems (lots of ceiling speakers) have their place and like any type of system, can be properly or improperly applied or designed. The biggest advantage of distributed systems is usually that they can provide even coverage and good intelligibility in some environments where this might be difficult with other systems. I have designed several large training and ballroom type systems that used high quality speakers such as JBL or Tannoy models that are essentially ceiling speaker versions of their monitor speakers and that put out well over 100dB of full range, high fidelity sound everywhere in the room.

However, most distributed systems are intended primarily for speech and/or do not use such high quality, and expensive, speakers. While proper use of zoning and delays can help, distributed systems are also often limited in being able to provide localization, relating the sound to a specific location, that can be desired for theatrical applications. As a high school cafetorium that was done on a budget, I would guess that it is indeed a 70V distributed systems using fairly inexpensive speakers and was intended for basic speech and maybe background music use.

It is a common practice, and one I often apply in multipurpose rooms like this as well as in larger classrooms and presentation rooms, to separate the music and speech aspects by having a distributed system for speech (for good coverage and intelligibility) and a stereo system for program material at the screen or stage (for localization and full range response). So this approach by itself is common. It is the mixing concept and how that relates to the use that I still do not understand. As mixmaster noted, it sounds like you would just mix everything at FOH using the Mackie with the stereo output going to the stage speakers and an aux send via a DI or inline pad to one of the distributed system inputs.

Charcoaldabs, what you describe sounds more like front fill or perhaps dedicated effects or practicals. One concept that was common a number of years ago but that I have not seen used for some time was to provide a precedent speaker, a single directional speaker at the primary source location, in conjunction with a distributed system. This was particularly applicable to churches where the distributed system provided the coverage and level while a precedent speaker provided some localization to the pulpit. It may be that the system you saw was using the front fill or effects speakers to provide some precedence back to the actors or effects.
 
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Wow, so much stuff to reply to. First since I got the most for my Soundcraft comment, it was/is/was a Sprit FX16. The EQs didn't work properly and it was/is/was missing half of the plastic covers of the sliders. What happened was the PSU connection was ripped out, the wiers came out and the connector stayed in. I've been working on it but thanks to Soundcraft engineering genius I cant tell what their wiering system is. So you think, "Not too hard, just match up the colors." So I opened up the board to take a look at what color went where. Right, too easy. They don't use the same colors in the board and PSU. and of couse they cant use the traditional Red-Black-White scheme either. So I'm having somebody to test the circuits to find out what is positive negative and ground.

As for the "crappyness" of the old overhead system. My partner in crime, the sound guy, seems to think that is a result of the amps they used. Ill get some pics of the system.
 
The Spirit FX16 is a great board. I've mixed and recorded on one, and it's very easy to use and the mic pres are great. If you can, get that sucker working again, and grab some new fader caps off ebay or from a Soundcraft dealer.
 
My partner in crime, the sound guy, seems to think that is a result of the amps they used. Ill get some pics of the system.
I seriously doubt that it is simply the amps themselves, unless they used totally inappropriate or seriously underpowered amps it is much more likely to be the wiring, EQ, some simple switch or control setting, gain structure, speakers/transformers, etc. For example, a common issue would be to have a 70V distributed system but to have the amplifier wired and/or a selector switch on the rear panel set for 8 Ohm operation. This is exactly the type of situation I was addressing where I would suggest understanding all of these other issues and verifying they are correct before you assume the equipment is the problem. There are lots of people getting crappy sound from good equipment and a quite a bit fewer people getting good sound from crappy equipment, it's much better to be one of the latter.
 
Howlingwolf the guy's looking for a $75 mixer... the Mackie 1640 Vlz3 is an $800 mixer.

Yes, so I noticed...my bad. I don't know how well a $75 mixer will do for their long term usage, however. Even though they're only spending a smaller chunk of money, I would still investigate my options to get the best quality with the required functions - don't want a new board to crap out during a show, do we.

Good luck with your search and keep on learning!
 
The high school I used to teach at had it's dimmer rack behind the proscenium wall less than 2 feet from the stage. There was just barely enough room for someone to stand and operate the grand. You listened to it the whole show.

My same venue has the dimmers for the hose lights in the Light/Sound/spot booth. With everything on, all I hear in the booth is the whir of fans. I suppose that's not so bad - the only thing the audiance hears is the whir of the dimmer rack fans. It least it's all the same..... right?:rolleyes:
Matt
 
My same venue has the dimmers for the hose lights in the Light/Sound/spot booth. With everything on, all I hear in the booth is the whir of fans. I suppose that's not so bad - the only thing the audiance hears is the whir of the dimmer rack fans. It least it's all the same..... right?:rolleyes:
Matt

Do the dimmers heat the booth up or do you have enough air flow to keep it cool.
 
Do the dimmers heat the booth up or do you have enough air flow to keep it cool.

There are only half a dozen dimmers in a rack meant for quite a few more. The fan runs like the rack is fully loaded though. Course, we're three stories up in a booth originally designed as an organ pipe enclosure. It's always hot. There is no AC in the booth. I thank god that they moved the stage lightning dimmers out when they did the changeover from Autotransformers and spaghetti patch. The house dimmers are noisy enough. Oh well. It makes life fun.:lol:
 
hi,

i havent been on this site in a few years so you all probably dont remember me, but I used to be a big poster...

mackie has one thats alright. I would probably go with that. in this industry you get what you pay for. There is no such thing as cheap and good quality, and you can certainly hear the difference most of the time. To stay within that price range I would recommend ebay, A lot of people sell used equipment that is still in working order and certain things (like 6 channel analog mixers) haven't changed substantially in recent years. That way you can get a beter quality piece of equipment that will fall closer to your price range.
 

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