Small theater upgrade questions

bdiddy

Member
Thanks in advance for any and all help.

To cut right to the point, I'm on the board of a small (350) seat theater, which is looking to upgrade its lighting system. The catch is that the funding has come from sources which require us to move to LED lights. I'm very new to the whole world of theater lighting, let alone that of the LED sources.

We have two budget numbers to work with $14,000 and $30,000. We need to come up with a proposal at each funding level and the granting organization will decide which we get. If we get the $30,000 we have to remove ALL of our traditional sources as part of the agreement.

Our current setup consists of a combination of 6 Source 4 750w fixtures and a mix of other brands (some over 25 years old). In a perfect world, I would keep and use the Source 4's but my hands are tied at the higher funding level. I've listed a few facts below, but I was hoping people out there would have some idea where I can start looking.

Stage: 25' wide, 15' deep
Overhead bars: 18' high
Distance from furthest bar to stage: 35'

Some members of the theater staff are pushing to replace our ETC Express board with a Chauvet software solution. This is something I oppose, but would love to hear peoples opinions on.

Thanks again.
 
Akin to replacing a 1997 Ford Taurus sedan with a 2011 Kawasaki dirt bike.

I couldn't have said this better myself. I don't see why they're looking to spend money on a console when the budget is going to be pretty tied up in the LEDs (even $30k won't get extremely far in the case of LEDs, but it should get you a decent little system). An Express won't do too bad at controlling LEDs, but you may or may not struggle for control channels, depending on the channel count of your current board. Even if you did replace the Express with software, Chauvet is the last place I'd look; Chamsys being the first.

How many fixtures are you currently working with, including the +/- 25 year old instruments?
How many acting areas do you wish to individually light? This will translate loosely to "how many LED ellipsoidal/profile instruments you will need.
Do you do a lot of pattern projection?
Do you often need full-stage color saturation?

It looks like you will be spending the grant on a mixture of wash ["Par" or "Brick"] and ellipsoidal/profile units (mostly because there isn't much of a choice at this time). LED strips are nice, but given the choice, I'd go with "brick" units from ETC Selador, CK, etc. Now we just need to figure out which proportions you'd like your lighting units to be in.
 
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I couldn't have said this better myself. I don't see why they're looking to spend money on a console when the budget is going to be pretty tied up in the LEDs (even $30k won't get extremely far in the case of LEDs, but it should get you a decent little system). An Express won't do too bad at controlling LEDs, but you may or may not struggle for control channels, depending on the channel count of your current board. Even if you did replace the Express with software, Chauvet is the last place I'd look; Chamsys being the first.

How many fixtures are you currently working with, including the +/- 25 year old instruments?
How many acting areas do you wish to individually light? This will translate loosely to "how many LED ellipsoidal/profile instruments you will need.
Do you do a lot of pattern projection?
Do you often need full-stage color saturation?

It looks like you will be spending the grant on a mixture of wash ["Par" or "Brick"] and ellipsoidal/profile units (mostly because there isn't much of a choice at this time). LED strips are nice, but given the choice, I'd go with "brick" units from ETC Selador, CK, etc. Now we just need to figure out which proportions you'd like your lighting units to be in.

Selador/Selecon is way out of their budget. Color Kinetics might be okay but are not good value for the cost.

ERS units are going to be the biggest issue.
 
I current have a 3 year old ETC networked system operating a large (1100 seats) and small (202 seats) theaters. I love the support of ETC and WOULD NOT go to competitors. Have a friend that TD at her Theatre, she has Strand. She calls me to help with issues cause Strand doesn't have an easy support network. Just my standing. I've seen ETCs' LED Source 4 in person @ factory. My Theatre is holding off on ERS for a few years to get a few the second year their out. We have looked into Selador Luster 11" for Cyc wash and color wash. At ~$1150 with all accessories we wanted we were thrilled, unfortunately we needed an initial dozen units.

If your looking @ upgrading console, go ION or maybe GEO. Touch screen or not get 21" flat screen monitor!

Don't forget the cost of getting non-dimmed power and control where you need it.
- Can always make dimmer circuits "non-dim" or "switched" for power. For long run cost saving control, Network is the way. So easy to run Cat 5 cable here and there and everywhere, plug in a DMX node, daisy chain shorter runs(50 foot loop) on each bar via various lengths cable. Leaves so much room for flexability. With a network you don't have to have some one come in to set it up, or run the cables. Assuming you can set up a computer network at home without 'Geek-Squad'.
 
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Welcome to CB clarkwg3! Feel free to introduce yourself in the New Members Forum.

If your looking @ upgrading console, go ION or maybe GEO. Touch screen or not get 21" flat screen monitor!

"Don't forget the cost of getting non-dimmed power and control where you need it." by BobHealey.
- Can always make dimmer circuits "non-dim" or "switched" for power. For long run cost saving control, Network is the way. So easy to run Cat 5 cable here and there and everywhere, plug in a DMX node, daisy chain shorter runs(50 foot loop) on each bar via various lengths cable. Leaves so much room for flexability. With a network you don't have to have some one come in to set it up, or run the cables. Assuming you can set up a computer network at home without 'Geek-Squad'.

The price of a Geo or decently equipped Ion eat up a huge part of the budget. The Express, while old and discontinued, is still a good console, still supported by ETC, and until you start adding a lot of LEDs and such, is a great console for the OP. Now if this were an install, or a complete renovation, where a more powerful console was desired (and budgeted for), then certainly Ion or Geo is the way to go.

You may know this, but I think it still needs to be said. You can't just to use a dinner with a non-dim or switched profile. You need actually use a constant power module or a relay module. If the OP has a Sensor rack, this is easy. If you have something different that does not allow this, then non-dim power also needs to be taken into account

Some members of the theater staff are pushing to replace our ETC Express board with a Chauvet software solution. This is something I oppose, but would love to hear peoples opinions on.

I'm glad you oppose that. Chauvet may sound good online, but in reality it doesn't work reliably enough for theater.
 
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The price of a Geo or decently equipped Ion eat up a huge part of the budget. The Express, while old and discontinued, is still a good console, still supported by ETC, and until you start adding a lot of LEDs and such, is a great console for the OP. Now if this were an install, or a complete renovation, where a more powerful console was desired (and budgeted for), then certainly Ion or Geo is the way to go.

You may know this, but I think it still needs to be said. You can't just to use a dinner with a non-dim or switched profile. You need actually use a constant power module or a relay module. If the OP has a Sensor rack, this is easy. If you have something different that does not allow this, then non-dim power also needs to be taken into account

Yes I know that. Another option I have with Sensor rack with CEM+ is 'switched' with min voltage @ 120 and max voltage @ 120 and min control @ 1. Can always have an electrical contractor come in to add a patch panel between stage circuits and dimmers vs breaker panel, I know a step back to manual dimmer days to get a work-around for better technology.


I'm glad you oppose that. Chauvet may sound good online, but in reality it doesn't work reliably enough for theater.

I assist a sound company that has several Chauvet products. They work great within 10 feet. I might consider lighting my lobby ceiling with them if I ever found my self looking for something to do before tech week arrived:)
 
I just went through this myself (350 seat, but larger stage) and let me assure you that $14,000 or $30,000 is not going to go very far if the requirement is for a theatre-quality LEDs. Whoever is insisting on all LED for $30,000 does not understand the realities of the technology today. It would take half your budget just to replace your 6 Source Fours with something that many would consider to be an inferior result. You would be better served to accept the $14,000 grant and make the most out of a hybrid solution.

If the requirement for the first grant is energy efficiency, and not specifically LED technology, then you might want to consider the Source Four Fresnel lamped at 375W or 575W instead of whatever your old technology may be. There may be a 40-60% energy saving without the need for very expensive LEDs or a major dimming/control retrofit.
 
Thanks in advance for any and all help.

To cut right to the point, I'm on the board of a small (350) seat theater, which is looking to upgrade its lighting system. The catch is that the funding has come from sources which require us to move to LED lights. I'm very new to the whole world of theater lighting, let alone that of the LED sources.

We have two budget numbers to work with $14,000 and $30,000. We need to come up with a proposal at each funding level and the granting organization will decide which we get. If we get the $30,000 we have to remove ALL of our traditional sources as part of the agreement.

Our current setup consists of a combination of 6 Source 4 750w fixtures and a mix of other brands (some over 25 years old). In a perfect world, I would keep and use the Source 4's but my hands are tied at the higher funding level. I've listed a few facts below, but I was hoping people out there would have some idea where I can start looking.

Stage: 25' wide, 15' deep
Overhead bars: 18' high
Distance from furthest bar to stage: 35'

Some members of the theater staff are pushing to replace our ETC Express board with a Chauvet software solution. This is something I oppose, but would love to hear peoples opinions on.
How were the budget numbers established? Did someone with appropriate experience and qualifications assess your space and what you do and then develop two different possible solutions with those associated budgets or did someone simply offer two random numbers? The concern is how aspects such as your goals, what you have beyond the fixtures and the existing electrical power and wiring provisions may factor into anything that is done.

Before getting into potential fixture and console/controller options it may be worthwhile to establish why you are doing this and your goals. Reading the original post you mention wanting to upgrade your systems but I don't see any discussion of why you are considering this or what you hope to get from it. Are you trying to address any specific problems or inadequacies with the current system? Or is the 'upgrade' limited to getting new fixtures and maybe a new console?

You might also want to do what you can to verify that there are no potential associated 'gotchas' such as electrical service, wiring or code compliance issues. Spending all the grant money on gear and then finding out that the existing electrical or dimming systems can't support it or that work is required to be compliant with current code would not be a good situation.
 
Thanks to everyone for the replies.

I come from a very basic background with this equipment, so some of the conversation is beyond me.

I'll try to paint a better picture of what we have now, to better see what we can move to. We currently have zero lights over the stage. I move one or two up there (all the spares there are) for shows, but they clearly aren't very effective. We have four bars mounted to the ceiling with 5 mix and match lights on them (I'll try and get more exact info on what they are tonight). These bars are between 20 and 50 feet from the stage. We also have four bars mounted to the sides of the building paired at 25' and 35' (I think the technical term is a boom?). I'll move a light or two down from the ceiling to these bars on occasion, but they mostly go unused.

The one layout option provided to us by a vendor called for

- 9 ETC SELPA11 Palletta LED LIGHT FIXTURE over the stage
- 5 ETC DESIRE 60 LEDELEMENT LED FIXTURE 60 for the wash
- 3 to 5 ETC Source Four LEDs for front lighting

I have yet to see any of these lights in our space, so can't even bring an opinion to the table at this point on how they perform. Are we even in the right ballpark? If we could keep the current Source Fours we have to supplement, would that do the trick?

Thanks again everyone.
 
Our restrictions come from the fact that much of the funding comes from the local electric utility who will only provide it under specific guidelines.

Our current setup is woefully inadequate, as I detailed above, we lack many basic lights. The goal of this project is to both reduce our energy usage and to provide a better working experience to the groups and resident companies that we currently have. This theater is literally being built back up from decades of misuse and neglect. I'd very much like to be able to put something in that can grow with the theater and allow us to put out a higher quality product for the community.
 
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I think it's helpful to remember that LEDs are not the only way to improve energy efficiency.
Depending on the way the Power Company's guidelines are written, you may be able to make a case for replacing your old mismatched lights with say new Source 4s because then you can drop from say a 1000W lamp to a 575W lamp or something along those lines of improved efficiency.
I suspect that would net you more bang for your buck...
 
Thanks to everyone for the replies.

I come from a very basic background with this equipment, so some of the conversation is beyond me.

I'll try to paint a better picture of what we have now, to better see what we can move to. We currently have zero lights over the stage. I move one or two up there (all the spares there are) for shows, but they clearly aren't very effective. We have four bars mounted to the ceiling with 5 mix and match lights on them (I'll try and get more exact info on what they are tonight). These bars are between 20 and 50 feet from the stage. We also have four bars mounted to the sides of the building paired at 25' and 35' (I think the technical term is a boom?). I'll move a light or two down from the ceiling to these bars on occasion, but they mostly go unused.

The one layout option provided to us by a vendor called for

- 9 ETC SELPA11 Palletta LED LIGHT FIXTURE over the stage
- 5 ETC DESIRE 60 LEDELEMENT LED FIXTURE 60 for the wash
- 3 to 5 ETC Source Four LEDs for front lighting

I have yet to see any of these lights in our space, so can't even bring an opinion to the table at this point on how they perform. Are we even in the right ballpark? If we could keep the current Source Fours we have to supplement, would that do the trick?

Thanks again everyone.

I am sorry, but even for a 25'x15' stage, that seems like going from one woefully underpowered system to another (slightly less) woefully underpowered system. It is certainly an upgrade, but still that is not a lot of light for a stage of that size.
 
There's your problem the grid is paying for it. NSTAR came out and switched our house to all CFL bulbs. Apparently they wanted the place to look like the Vegas strip or cause seizures. The idiots put all of them in and they're all on dimmers. Except the dimmers clearly weren't rated for CFLs. It was pretty obvious unless they changed them in the dark and didn't turn the lights back on.

Those quickly were removed and now sit in a box unused.
 
There's your problem the grid is paying for it. NSTAR came out and switched our house to all CFL bulbs. Apparently they wanted the place to look like the Vegas strip or cause seizures. The idiots put all of them in and they're all on dimmers. Except the dimmers clearly weren't rated for CFLs. It was pretty obvious unless they changed them in the dark and didn't turn the lights back on.

Those quickly were removed and now sit in a box unused.

Yeah. I get people all the time wanting to do an LED renovation of their space. Then I tell them it it going to cost $50000-$100000 and after a bit of stuttering they talk about how a rep from a well known electrical manufaturer in town told them about an LED lamp they could put in their current fixtures at $80 a lamp. They are also told it is "dimmable" but what the reps don't understand is that my clients need full, smooth dimming from 100%-0% not from 100% to 20%.

Too many people selling LED products that have no idea what they are selling.

Mike
 
3 to 5 ERS LEDs means it is speced by somebody that doesn't have a clue how to light a stage. I don't know prices but you may be able to pull a top wash off on the lower budget. Going from an Express to anything Chauvet is a horrible idea. Just because it will make the lights come on does not mean it is a viable alternative. When you are planning something like this you have consider how to get power to it. It may be as simple as pulling the dimmer circuits and putting then in a breaker panel for constant power. Without knowing what you have, that is a question for an electrician. Then you have to distribute DMX to everything. Which Express do you have? It makes a difference to how many channels you have to work with.
 
Good post Michael. I have a lot of smaller theaters running Elation or my own brand of LED units for top and back washes (it is better than a single color conventional wash or no top wash at all), in fact there are a couple of regional theaters here running lower end LED gear (although they also have Sea-Changers on S4 PARs so that doesn't really make sense to me). But no one has yet to put in an all LED rig (I do have a couple of all LED rigs, but they are in portable churches). Even with lower end LEDkos you are looking at $10000 for 12 or so ERS units, and even the worst equipped spaces here in my area have at least 15-24 ERS units.
 

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