Small theater upgrade questions

[carmellights]

in my opinion never get rid of an express - they are fantastic simple flexible consoles. in my experience I go for the mfg that is going to provide best long term customer support..and that is ETC.
as far as the grant money - rather than convert everything just now - consider this. depending on the type of existing dimmer rack - if it is modular ( like a ETC sensor or Strand SV - maybe select a few circuits ( like the cyc dimmer circuits ) and buy some constant modules from your local ETC dealer. this will provide flexibility for supplying constant A/C to the new LED fixtures wherever you may mount them.
I can tell you up front you do not have enough money to replace dimming or distribution - you will tie up half of that dropping A/C circuits or reworking your electrical.
1 - look at the Opti Tri PAR LED fixture - for your short throws it is good, can nicely substitute for all your Fresnels. affordable too.
2- concentrate on changing out a " type " of conventional fixture - like all your cyc and Fresnel fixtures with LED.
3 - Wait to go after the ellipsoidal hard edge fixtures ( and their associated dimming circuits ) - something wonderful is about to happen ( I sound like the movie 2001 ) but it's true. the " Holy Grail " LED Source 4 fixture is almost here - and it will eventually change everything.
4 - DMX signal distribution out to whatever new LED fixtures you can afford will be more of an issue than anything else - look at the City Theatrical " Show Baby " wireless DMX transciever - amazing solution for 375.00 per DMX universe.
keeping the express lets you use the 2nd ( 513-1024) DMX output port for the distributed DMX to the new LED fixtures.

if there really is the catch 22 of " getting rid of " all your conventional fixtures for only 30K- doesnt make sense to pop open that can of worms - you will not get an equivilant LED package for that price installed, DMX 'd and ready to use. just go for the 14 K - that will get you about 15 Opti Tri PARS, and a good start down the road of LED conversion. next year go after another grant for more - remember to budget in a DMX cable for each LED fixture - can hurt to overlook that detail. C

 

[carmellights]

wow - if a vendor is going to give you all of those for 30 K thats nice...but what solution did they give you for getting power or DMX to them ? is that installed with electrical rework included? I also might suggest that before you buy any LED fixture try it in your space as a demo.

with throws as short as yours, you might also look at Source 4 Juniors - only 200 ish a whack, replace all your existing mix and match FOH lekos, they are efficient fixtures for small venues. lamp them at 375 Watt and show the energy savings to the power company.

no matter what - the devil is in the details. LED fixtures dont just plug and go where the old fixtures were - they need constant A/C and DMX wiring to each head - make sure whoever is designing covers the details.

C

 

[museav]

This theater is literally being built back up from decades of misuse and neglect. I'd very much like to be able to put something in that can grow with the theater and allow us to put out a higher quality product for the community.

The phrase "...from decades of misuse and neglect." really concerns me as it suggests that any significant improvement, and in fact any significant changes in general, may require more than just some new fixtures. This thread, http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...neutrals-what-other-things-should-pulled.html, is a fairly recent example of the common situation where once you start getting into the details things can take an unexpected, and often unwelcome, turn. What happens if you spend all the funds on fixtures, console, etc. and the "decades of misuse and neglect" results in other work being required? If the firms offering the quotes for the fixtures did not do so, and especially if their quotes include language releasing them from any related responsibility, then it may be a wise investment to get someone to assess your existing power, dimmers and anything else related to make sure everything else is legal and able to support your plans before you make any decisions.

 

[Esoteric]

Yeah Brad. We did a renovation on a 125 year old church that had been renovated in the 30's, but no one knew. So, we open up a wall to to start installing the racks and what do we discover? Knob and tube wiring. Everywhere. It tripled the budget and they had no cushion in it for anything. Much less that.

 

[gafftaper]

There has been a lot of great advice already. I agree you need at least $50k to light that stage with LED's... and probably more like $75k-$100k to do it right. Anything you do for $30k is going to be even more under powered than you already have. So go with the smaller grant and buy a bunch of smaller LED blocks that you can use for back, down, and side lighting. You'll really pump up the color and variety of your wash on stage. Join the rest of us saving up for the day that LED ellipsoidals become equally as bright as an incandescent fixture and reasonably priced. And has been advised take a seriously close look at your infrastructure for power and dmx distribution before you do anything. You need true non-dimmed power (not just dimmers set in a non-dim mode) or you'll damage your LED's.

Yes, I know here I go again defending Strand...

Have a friend that TD at her Theatre, she has Strand. She calls me to help with issues cause Strand doesn't have an easy support network.

Not true. Yes Strand was difficult to get support from in the past but the new ownership has brought an entirely different approach to customer service and tech support. If you have a problem with the new generation of Palette/Light Palette Strand consoles there are several options to easily get tech support. My experience is they are easy to contact, great to work with, and very responsive to making sure you are happy. There are three primary ways to contact Strand for support:
1) Call them 24/7 at: 1-800-4Strand
2) Visit their website: strand-dev.com The software developers and tech support staff hang out there every day. They answer questions and provide advice about problems you may have with the Horizon software. You can submit questions, answer other people's questions, and even participate in their open source software extension projects.
3)Finally, if emailing a tech support person directly is what you want you can do that: [email protected] or [email protected]

Now if you need help with an old 500 or 400 console, yes it requires a little more effort, but support is available for those consoles too. Phillips apparently decided when they took over to wash their hands of consoles manufactured under the previous ownership groups (Strand was sold to Genlyte in 2006 and then again to Phillips in 2008). Before anyone gets upset about this decision remember that the 500 series had already been discontinued and that the Palette series had been out for 2 years when Philips purchased Strand. Yes I admit that if you call ETC and ask for repair service on a 20 year old ETC Vision, they will find a way to fix it. But come on people, get a new console already. That said, fear not, repairs are available. There is a company somewhere in the South or Southwest that purchased all the old parts and repair service is easily available for Strand 400 and 500 consoles. Call 1-800-4Strand and I'm sure they can hook you up with the company that has the repair parts.

If all your friend needs is advice or training on operating something older like a Strand 500 there are plenty of people around here and Strand who still know this gear well, but Bobby Harrell is the master. Bobby occasionally hangs out here on CB as Bharrell. If you have any questions about older Strand equipment drop him a PM here on CB, post a message here, or contact him through his website. Bobby can definitely help, you could even have him come do training sessions at your theater.

 

[coasterboard]

I just went through this myself (350 seat, but larger stage) and let me assure you that $14,000 or $30,000 is not going to go very far if the requirement is for a theatre-quality LEDs. Whoever is insisting on all LED for $30,000 does not understand the realities of the technology today. It would take half your budget just to replace your 6 Source Fours with something that many would consider to be an inferior result. You would be better served to accept the $14,000 grant and make the most out of a hybrid solution.

If the requirement for the first grant is energy efficiency, and not specifically LED technology, then you might want to consider the Source Four Fresnel lamped at 375W or 575W instead of whatever your old technology may be. There may be a 40-60% energy saving without the need for very expensive LEDs or a major dimming/control retrofit.

This is the best post I've read on here so far. To take it a step further, it could be feasible to run your current source 4 ellipsoidals on hpl375 lamps, holding on to the hotter lamps for when you need extra punch, like with gobos. There are a lot of ways to save energy without going all LED. If you can afford it, a handful of LEDs might enhance your current package but I cannot see a reasonable way to replace an entire rig including control for $30k. There are so many issues with LED fixtures. Good ones are expensive and cheaper ones are not worth your while. The technology is still way behind the point of being able to replace conventionals in a theatre setting. Honestly, if a vendor is telling you that replacing your whole rig with LEDs is a good idea without offering you both sides of the story or some options that present compromise, they are probably just trying to get your business without worrying too much about the success of your theatre. If you want something that will grow with the theatre, all LED is not the solution. Like some others have said, getting proper electrical work should be top on your list- modernizing the infrastructure is important so there aren't any very expensive surprises later on. Then, worry about the lights. I would suggest shopping around a little bit more with the help you got on this forum in mind.

ps- where in New England are you? I'm the Lighting Director at a production company in New England. We don't do a lot of installs, but if you want more help, I can get you some quote numbers- so you at least know if what people are quoting you is fair.

Good Luck!