Sound board upgrade from Mackie CFX-20

[BenFranske]

Having used a lot of Yamaha digital consoles from the ProMix 01 to the original 01V to the 01V96v2, PM1D, PM5D and most recently M7CL48 I can say that you don't need to worry about latency much (if at all). I have used all of these in live events and it has never been an issue. You're going to need some time to learn your way around the console though, that's going to be a bigger issue. digital consoles just work differently than analogs and you'll need some time to figure out the menu structure and where things are. They're a lot more flexible but you pay for that (usually) in complexity.

 

[Cooze]

I just want to let you know that I respect you for doing all this research before buying, it is always good to know what other people think instead of going on your own opinion, you did a very good thing by investigating before purchasing.

Next I would like to let you know that I have not had a positive expirence with Behringer however other people may feel differently about it, I would stay away from it, I belive the saying "you get what you pay for" really applies to them. I think you have 2 other really good choices, I have not worked with any of Yamaha's digital equipment but I do know of some places that do use them and they are very satisfied. I have not ever used a Tascam product but also never heard anything negative about them.

Good luck, I am interested in knowing what you end up with.

 

[soundlight]

I have heard almost nothing but bad about Behringer...except for the ADA8000. It seems to be the only product that they ever made that works well and doesn't break. I know from experience that the mute buttons on their SL series of consoles doesn't mute the signal all the way...just reduces it about 60dB

 

[SHARYNF]

Personally I think the 01v96 is probably the best way to go for you, will be a bit more pricey but one thing to consider it that these Yamaha units tend to hold their value well.

IF you expand the adat, I recommend that you get the 16 channel adat card, since there is only one slot. You might be able to negotiate a deal on what you want with some of the dealers.

Delay will NOT BE A PROBLEM.

The main thing the O2r's have going for them is price and the meter bridge ability and some expansion slot flexibility,but they are big heavy, no question about it. They are built like a tank you would be amazed at what sort of banging I have seen them take and still work out

All that said, IMO if you can swing the budget go for the 01v96

Sharyn

 

[jkowtko]

Cooze, I generally like to know as much as possible before making a big purchase like this. Thankfully these forums are a great way to tap into others that have already gone there before you, and I will in turn do the same for newcomers down the road ...

Sharyne, I just want to confirm the advantages of the 01v96 over the 02r as you know them:
* smaller & lighter
* higher sampling rate, and generally newer technology, therefore overall better features/sound/responsiveness
* USB port for PC-based displays and control, including meter bridge

And the disadvantages:
* No sub faders (but not needed if I have fader grouping)
* Price. Around $1000-1500 more for the 01v (I can get a used 02r for around the $1000 range, $1500 if I include expansion cards and meter bridge.

I will check with my supplier on 01v prices -- hopefully I can narrow the gap.

In the meantime, if I want to check out a used board, since I haven't used digital boards before, can you tell me the handful of things I should test on the board (or have the owner show me) to verify it is in proper working order?

One other quick question -- if I were to get an 02r, is the v2 just a software update to the board or are there hardware changes? If just software, is this a free download?

Thanks. John

PS: Soundlight, I know you're a Tascam fan ... I haven't forgotten about the DM-3200, but also falls into the same set of issues (size, weight) as the 02r .. but I will consider it along with a used 02r.

 

[SHARYNF]

Hi your analysis on the 01v96 is correct. The software upgrade to v2 on the 02r is via a set of prom chips that you replace via the rear panel
Sharyn

 

[Andy_Leviss]

Couple quick points on the 01V96. While you can get a 16 ch ADAT card, you only get 16 channels each way if you're running at 48k. At 96k, you need to use double-channel mode, which cuts you down to 8 in, 8 out.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by not having sub-faders. On the 02R, on your first layer, you have 16 mono faders, 4 stereo faders, and a main L/R fader. You CAN send route busses through those stereo faders, but they're not directly becoming the output fader for that bus, those buses are actually routing to those inputs in the digital realm. It's a weird, wonky thing. Typical Yamaha, LOL.

If you flip to the Aux/Bus page of the MIDI Remote screen, then you can pull up all the aux and bus sends on the physical faders, but of course you can't simultaneously access your input faders.

On the 01V96, you have two options. Standard layers have the two input layers, and then a master layer, which has the aux and bus outputs on the physical faders. However, you also have a great innovation that came with the DM-series, the User Assignable Layer, which lets you custom design up to four fader banks with any input, output, or fader group master (ie, DCA) on any of the 16 faders you want. You can have an input next to a group master next to an aux send next to a bus master, etc.

So the 01V96 is actually FAR more flexible with regards to sub-faders, if you're referring to subgroups, not less.

--A

 

[jkowtko]

Yeah, I noticed the 48kHz when using all 16 I/Os on that card. Will there be a noticable difference between 48 and 96kHz? Will that translate into latency? .... But ... Since there is a built-in ADAT even if I just use 8 channels on the expansion card I'll still have 16 I/O expansion channels at full sampling rate, so I think I'm still covered on channel needs.

I like the user assignable layer concept. I am a fan of flexibility and in my software efforts over the years have always tried to design in many-to-many relationships in abstraction layers like they appear to have done here. If the 02r doesn't have it, then that's another notable advantage of the 01v.

A somewhat related and novice question (from a much earlier post on a different thread) ... what does VCA stand for? I'm pretty sure it's just a fancy name for channel grouping, but I couldn't find a definition of that acronym anywhere -- is it used by a particular manufacturer?

Thanks. John

 

[audioslavematt]

Sub groups and VCAs are two different things. http://www.allen-heath.com/US/ViewProductDownloads.asp?search=Mixing Live With VCAs

 

[jkowtko]

Aha .... very cool. This really adds a lot of flexibility (and sound quality, apparently) to the analog board.

Question then, for live performance would it be better to have a digital board like the 01v96, or a VCA analog board?

And what can I get into a VCA analog board for? Quickly poking around, all I found was the A&H ML3000 series, which, although seemingly reasonably priced, is well over my budget. Anything I can get used in the $2k range? Or is that why people will choose the digital boards -- lower cost?

Thanks. John

 

[Peter]

About 48kHz vs 96kHz.. in a live sound application you will most likey never notice a difference. Some people prefer 96kHz for recording applicatoins, wheras other people prefer 44.1kHz because that is what the final product will most likely be, but the short answer is 48kHz should be fine.

 

[Eboy87]

I'm a little surprised no one mentioned this. If you go the 01v route, the 01v96 can be connected to a PC (or Mac running Parallels or boot camp) and controled via Studio Manager. This way you can set up the basics of a show before you actually get on the console. I'm pretty sure the original 01v didn't do this, at least that's what I thought when I was researching the two (I almost bought one, but bought a Gibson SG instead).

If it were up to me, I'd go for the 01v96 with a Behringer ADA8000. Trust me, once you sync up studio manager (which can be a PITA at first), you'll love it. Just my 2 cents.

 

[jkowtko]

Ian, I did mention it briefly earlier in the thead, as one difference between the '96' and the earlier models. But thanks for the emphasis -- I wasn't thinking about the convenience of being able to set up my programs from home rather than having to be in the theater to do it.

One more question on the User Assignable layer and Fader Groups vs VCA -- can the 01v96 give you the ability to separate level control from routing? For my sound cue machine which runs 6-8 input channels, I would prefer all 8 channel levels be managed by just one fader, but each of the channels does need to be routed to a separate output channel for directing sound to the various speakers in the theater. VCAs will let me do that, but I couldn't find any verbiage in the 01v96 doc that stated whether I could do the same. I really don't want to use up 8 faders just for the sound cues.

Thanks. John

 

[Andy_Leviss]

First, Studio Manager; for all except the newer ethernet-connected Yamaha consoles (the M7CL and LS9), there is a native Mac version. No need for Parallels or Boot Camp.

Second, level control separate from routing. Yes, the 01V96 can do this with fader groups, in two ways. In normal operation, the faders are ganged together, so they all move in unison, with whatever ratio they had to each other when the group was enabled. In group master fader mode, you get faders for the groups which you can put into the UA layer, which acts (mostly*) like a VCA/DCA (DCA is a sometimes-used term for the digital equivalent of a VCA).

--A

*-Fully functional VCA/DCAs will allow you to assign one channel to multiple VCAs; group master faders on the DM- and *96 series consoles only allow a channel to be a part of one group.

 

[Eboy87]

First, Studio Manager; for all except the newer ethernet-connected Yamaha consoles (the M7CL and LS9), there is a native Mac version. No need for Parallels or Boot Camp.

Oops, you're right, had a slight case of cranal-rectal inversion there. I do have the mac version of SM for the 01v, DM2000, and PM5D. But I still run Parallels for the M7 and LS9. Open mouth, insert foot.

 

[jkowtko]

Ok, so I think for $2500 for digital I would go with a Yamaha 01v96 with additional cards -- based on technology, flexibility, convenience, and size and weight. Thanks everyone for your input.

Now, (of course), I'm finding myself tight on budget, having to upgrade some mikes and buy EQ and a couple extra PA speakers, so I would like to see if there's a low-cost upgrade to my existing analog board. I've looked around and it's hard to find something with the format that I need.

My CFX-20 has:

- Input channels: 16 mono + 2 stereo pairs
- Buses: 4 group + 2 aux + 2 efx = 8 total
- jacks on top (fairly important as I have a shallow desk with audience right behind it, difficult to access the rear, so I need top jacks for patching)

What I need is:

- Input: 24 mono + 2 stereo pairs, or 32 mono
- Bus: 10 total (8 speaker outs plus 2 for recording or stage/band monitor)
- jacks on top

Looking around, I had a hard time finding boards with this arrangement. In fact, the only real match for my needs that I could find was ... brace yourselves ... Behringer!

Yes, the Behringer MX3282A has 24+8 input, 8+6 outputs, jacks on top, and comes at a ridiculously low price of $600 ... I can get one new at the local music shop right now! But will I be kicking myself later if I buy it ... ?

Another board I really like was the Allen & Heath PA-28, everything looks great for $1000 or so, except for lack of output buses :| So I think this one is ruled out.

The Yamaha MG3214 as all the I/O I need for $1000, but the jacks are in the rear ... :|

I can also go to a Mackie 32.8 but they're very deep boards, however if I'm pressed then this may be my only viable option.

So I would appreciate input on other board options -- new or discontinued models -- that would give me the type of features that the Behringer has.

I would also appreciate some feedback on the Behringer. Is this board going to be noisy? Will channels stop working in the middle of shows? Is it worth buying the board, keeping the Mackie as a backup, and counting on warranty and other repairs to keep it operational for the next couple of years until I can get something much better? (After all, $500 in repairs and I'm still just approaching the cost of a Yamaha or A&H).

Thanks. John

 

[soundlight]

If you have the money for the A&H or the Yamaha now, get it. Otherwise, the Behringer board will work. Yes, they have destroyed themselves with their new mixers (their SL series doesn't even mute all the way when you push the mute button, the signal just drops alot but is still audible if the speakers are up loud enough), but this one series of mixers (the MX2442 and MX3282) are the only ones that one of the local sound company heads. He's taken his MX3282 out to a number of festivals, large theater gigs, etc, and he sometimes even trusts it over his smaller A&H because of the built-in flexibility. He has sworn off any of the new Behringer stuff because the quality has been plummeting downhill, but he still holds on to his MX3282 like a brick of gold. This is the same guy who uses Shure Beta mics and AKG mics and DBX processing as well as PAS speakers for the huge Shakori Hills festival down here. It's seriously the only bit of Behringer gear that he trusts.

But if you're just scrutinizing the yammie because the jacks are in the rear, you should go ahead and buy it if you have the money, because it is a nicer board.

 

[jkowtko]

Well, this sounds pretty much like a ringing endorsement for the least expensive 8-bus board on the market!

What I'd like to hear is why I shouldn't buy this board? Are there any specific issues like the faders have a terrible feel to them, noisy buttons, difficult to make precise volume adjustments, confusing panel displays? It sounds like there won't be a problem with breakages ... and it sounds like it works well for live performance ...

I can understand why I would in general be happier with a better quality board, but to lose the bus structure or the top jacks, and for the large difference in price (double) while under a very tight budget, it would take a significant usability or reliability issue to convince me to fork out the extra money right now ...

(Keep in mind, next year I may go digital for musicals with a Yamaga 01v96 ... this is a short-term analog upgrade I'm considering now just to get the extra channels with as little cost as possible).

Thanks. John

 

[SHARYNF]

There is an old saying, the quality endures long after the price is forgotten. In most cases I think it is best to buy quality, since the true cost of an item is what you paid for it, plus what you put into it, minus what you can sell it for at the end especially if you are looking at an upgrade. In most cases buying something cheap and then upgrading tends to be more expensive.

Again back to earlier parts of this thread, you could buy an 03d or an o2r for the price of the Behringer, and have a far more saleable unit,

The other point is, if you really are not under massive pressure, wait until you have the money for the 01v96, then add the pieces you need to bring it up to more channels

Sharyn

 

[soundlight]

On the reliability of Yamaha digital consoles: there is a pair of 01v's here that have been going out at least every other week for outside calls during the whole school year for about ten years now. They're roadcased, but they've been running almost flawlessly forever.