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sound for Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat

Discussion in 'Sound, Music, and Intercom' started by techstudent, Sep 7, 2008.

  1. techstudent

    techstudent Member

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    Hey
    im only 17 years old and i have had no professional training but i have been working in small professional theatres for some small productions within the last year.
    i will be doing Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat as part of a youth drama group and i will be doing the sound.

    what other equipment (appart from the obvious mics, mixer, amps ect) should i be using in order to get a professional sounding mix.

    i will be mixing a small band and about 12 radio vocal lapel mics

    any help would be appreciated
     
  2. DaveySimps

    DaveySimps CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    It is a very very broad question you ask. Since we do not know the space you are in, the talent you are working with, or the system you are using it is impossible to answer. In VERY general terms, I would say try to keep the sound as natural and unprocessed as possible, while still keeping it lound enough to he heard in every part of the space with good intelligibility. Mixing is an art in itself, and a good sound only comes with continued expirence and good talent on the other end of the mics.

    If you care to post spicifics concerns you have, I am certain we would be happy to try and help you the best we can. There is just no cure all, simple set up that works for everything.

    ~Dave
     
  3. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    The lapel is the worst place to mount a mic capsule for theatre use. I'd start there.
     
  4. Sony

    Sony Active Member

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    I agree with Derek...a lapel mounted mic is not good for theatrical use. This is because since it is mounted on the chest of a person, it moves relative to the actors mouth and head...making it very difficult, if not impossible to control the volume since the persons mouth could be facing towards or away from the mic at any given moment. Also if two actors have to huge or move their clothing...you will get a lot of rubbing noise. The most used and recommended types of mics for theatre are the "around the ear" (or what I like to call "diva mics") type mics or ones mounted in the actors hair, usually hidden in a wig of some sort. These types do not move relative to the mouth and therefore provide much more consistent sound.

    Another piece of equipment you should try to get a hold of if you're working with non-professional singers is a decent Compressor...or a few of them (best would be one for each mic. We have 12 at my work, 3 units with 4 compressors each.) They help even out a singers volume by turning down the gain after a certain db level has been reached.
     
  5. hsaunier

    hsaunier Active Member

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    Is this a permanant theatre? Installed sound system? Do you know for sure that there are no frequency conflicts with 12 wireless systems all active at the same time? Just a few questions to start.
     
  6. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    Somewhat echoing the other comments, what is the venue and what equipment do you have? What kind of budget do you have for any supplementary equipment? What are you envisioning for the production? Do you have any specific effects or design elements you need to address?

    Beyond that, a "professional sounding mix" is often much more a factor of the operator and the effective use of the equipment than it is of the equipment itself, it may be better to use minimal equipment than to simply add a bunch of equipment that may not be effectively utilized. 'Professional' is the attitude and skills, not the equipment. And please take this as constructive criticism, but if you want to be 'professional' then think about things like capitalizing "I" and the first letter of sentences.
     
  7. waynehoskins

    waynehoskins Active Member

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    Let's see .. you need a Heritage 2K, four ACP88s, probably six DN360s, M3D arrays, MKE2 capsules into SK50 transmitters, Soundwebs, KF850 sidefills, SM200s for the band, monitor split for the band with a H3K at Monitor Beach, and then racks of Macros.

    If you can't tell by now, this is but one solution .. a rather expensive and outlandish solution at that.

    Overall suggestions:
    - As noted already, put the mic elements over the actors' ears. I'm partial to the good old Mke2.
    - Compression. Learn how to effectively use a compressor. You want one channel of compression for each lead at the very least.
    - Balance the vocals with the band. This may require miking the band as well. Make it rock; it's a rocking show.
    - High passes are your friends.

    Equipment are only tools. Using an H2K doesn't automatically make it sound better, but an H2K may have some features that will more easily let you make it sound better. A sweepable high-pass, for example, isn't found on a Mackie 1604, nor are the fully-parametric channel EQs or the metering.

    Similarly, an ACP88 doesn't automatically make it better, but it makes it easier for you to make it better.

    Realistically though, you will want a console with more than 16 inputs. You will want one with at least sweepable mids and some minimal grouping. You want one with mutes, and even better with mute groups or scenes. You will want comps and verb, and graphs to ring out the side-fills. You will want good loudspeakers. You will want subs and enough power behind the whole rig. You will want the rig to be tuned properly. You may want some delay to push the vocal image back onto stage.
     
  8. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    No, no, no. A Cadac F-type, V-DOSC or dV-DOSC arrays, Dolby Lake Processors, DriveRack, DPA capsules, (SK50 was correct), all in-ear monitors!
     
  9. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    DLP and a DriveRack? And in the same sentence! You will need to order that Lake Processor pretty quickly as apparently Dolby is getting out of the live sound market and will be discontinuing taking any orders for the Lake Processor at the end of this month. In fact, the live sound category no longer appears on Dolby's web site nor does the DLP now appear as a current product.

    Along the same lines, earlier this summer Cadac went into Administration. All references to this on their web site have been removed, so hopefully they have since found a buyer.
     
  10. waynehoskins

    waynehoskins Active Member

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    Interesting news. Somewhere I have the Cadac brochures from a few years ago, from the college days. Very pretty consoles. I will gladly take one. :)
     
  11. jkowtko

    jkowtko Active Member

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    Check out the "A Couple Previous Wireless Mic Threads" sticky thread in this forum and read the part about mounting mics thoroughly. That alone will be very helpful, and the more of it that you can do, the better. And the best part is that it doesn't cost much (it's just a pain to find all of the supplies ...)
     
  12. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    The DLP can still be found on Dolby's website, For Professionals, and at the bottom of the page, you can get to the live sound section. It seems strange that they would go to all the effort of bringing in v5 firmware with Dante and then dump the product... There was some indication that they will be changing the licensing for software, one will get updates for three years from date of purchase and thereafter, a fee may be payable.

    There certainly hasn't been any mention of discontinuation of the product on the Dolby forum...

    And since you are going for the latest and the greatest, I'd have thought one would want an SD7 or a D5T, unless you are die hard analog...

    And give me amps I don't put my back out with if you don't mind... You could even go with the lab PLM series and combine the DLPs into the amps...

    Derek's such a lighting guy, "all in ear monitors". Almost like saying, all moving lights, SO much scope....

    Everyone seems to think vDosc is the be all and the end all, perhaps opening your horizons to I don't know, say Adamson, might be good for you :twisted:
     
  13. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    I couldn't remember the name of this company, which in 1993, the last time I sold professional audio, was practically the only name in in-ear monitors.
     
  14. Sony

    Sony Active Member

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    I do believe they were being sarcastic/satirical...they were naming the best of the best because the OP did not specify any limitations, nor did he give any information about where he was going to setup all this equipment.
     
  15. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Err, I responded in that same light...

    There is a degree of difference between say PSM200 IEMs and PSM700s or G2s... Not to mention the difference in ear pieces...

    And there are those who would contend that Adamson is better than vDosc... Find me a better sub than a T21 and then we'll discuss it...
     
  16. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    Chris,

    Thanks for noting that link on Dolby's web site, I missed it. Somebody please explain to me why "Live Sound" "For Professionals" is not part of "Pro Audio"? :rolleyes:

    Several reputable sources on other forums have posted that they were told the Dolby Lake Processor was being discontinued at the end of the month, one person even posted part of a document they were supposedly given by their distributor. It would be great if it was a false rumor, but so far no one has provided any response or evidence contradicting it and it doesn't look as though anyone on the Dolby forums has asked. One comment, which makes sense to me, was that Dolby is primarily in the business of developing technology and licensing it and rather than intending to become a live sound product manufacturer with all that entails, the Dolby Lake Processor may have been more a 'proof of concept'. Now that is done and Dolby may see a more beneficial future for them in licensing the technology to other manufacturers rather than continuing with developing hardware. It would be nice to get some more formal confirmation one way or the other.

    There are plenty of better subs - it all depends upon the application. The problem with saying anything is "the best" or "better" is that such a determination is both subjective and directly dependent upon the application. Even in a 'money is no object, want the best sound' situation there are often many other factors to consider in deeming what is "best". Just pointing this out because otherwise I may end up with a small theatre with very limited budget that thinks they have to have Adamson T21 subs because they read in a forum that that's the only sub to consider.
     
  17. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    The funny thing is of course that Dolby didn't develop the technology... Lake did and Dolby bought them out... But it has been licenced to lab gruppen these days in the PLM series... I guess live sound isn't pro audio because it don't appeal to the studio boffin types that use Dolby noise reduction etc... Just checked, if you want a quick, direct link, use http://www.lake.com

    Maybe what they might do is to spin it off into a sub company.. stranger things have happened... We'll wait and see...

    Absolutely, I'm not sure exactly what I was thinking. A small theatre with a limited budget and T21s might be needing more budget for structural work if they used a T21 wrong... They are an incredible tool in the right hands and in the right situation. But used wrong, they are, like anything else used wrong, truck ballast...
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2008
  18. jkowtko

    jkowtko Active Member

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    Back to the original topic --

    TechStudent, you didn't mention Reverb. Although most of the dialogue and singing may not require it, your directors may want a slightly roomy sound for the Narrators voice, and maybe a rock-n-roll echo for Elvis. Just make sure you have a reverb unit on hand to dial these in as needed. And make sure you have good stereo separation of your house speakers so the reverb will sound good.

    Also, you didn't mention compressors. Again, although the norm is to not use compressors on vocalists in a play, in amateur theaters sometimes you need it to help with weak voices and/or peaky dynamics that are hard for the sound op to catch. Assuming you have an analog board, you may want to have 2-4 channels of compression available to plug in where needed.

    You mentioned you have worked in professional theaters, so I assume you know about all this stuff? However the mention of "lapel mic" hinted that your knowledge of sound in musical theater may be limited. Let us know how much you know, and if relevant, what equipment you have, so we will know at what level to respond.
     
  19. Anonymous067

    Anonymous067 BANNED USER

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  20. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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