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Source Four Lamp Bases

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by icewolf08, May 28, 2007.

  1. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    Ok, it could be just me, but I have been noticing a bunch of very minute, but majorly inconvenient differences between lamp bases and Lamp caps on source fours.

    First off, apparently there are two designs of the rear of the fixture where the lamp cap meets the fixture. One has 4 pins that protrude from the fixture, and the lamp caps have matching holes allowing them to fit. This mean that a lamp camp without these holes doesn't fit these instruments, but the lamp caps from these instruments fit all others.

    The other thing, is, have they changes the actual porcelain lamp base? Because I went down to my supplier to pick up some replacement porcelain bases, and they only fit in the 750w caps. It is driving me nuts. Does anyone know if there really is a difference or what the two different part numbers are (ETC only lists one on their site)?
     
  2. Footer

    Footer Senior Team Senior Team Premium Member

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    off the top of my head, no, but I know its scribbled on the wall of a few light shops in this country.... I like writing things on walls... My all time favorite S4 thing is dealing with the first generation ones with the shorter yokes.. if you put one of the new base caps with the handle on them, they don't go to 50/50 anymore because the handle hits... GENIOUS
     
  3. jmabray

    jmabray Active Member

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    Yes there are differences.

    The TP220 or TP22 Part that is the lead with the piece of porcelin attached is different. The first version of the part came in 4 separate pieces. 2 leads, the porcelin and the silica piece. The second version has all those pieces but they are riveted together.

    The lamp cap difference that you are talking about is the difference between a very early version and the later 750w version.

    Call ETC tech support and they can help you out about how to get these to work together.

    Jeff
     
  4. Lightingguy32

    Lightingguy32 Active Member

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    The Standard Source Four Socket as of the end of the year 2006 is now the Osram TP-22H HPL socket which has a max rating of 750Watts. The standard Source Four on the market these days is now by default rated for at most 750 watts. The lamp caps only difference between the original 575 watt run and the 750 watt run is that the 750 watt lamp cap incorporates a nuetral pin socket for the 3rd pin on a HPL 750w lamp. How ever I am clueless to what you mean by a different casting design of the rear housing of a source four fixture. The casting between the lamp cap and the reflector assembly has never changed a bit (maybe a little to compensate for the extra heat of a HPL 750). I have compared the fixture specs between a source four 750 and an original 575watt source four back from 1993. The rear castings are identical except that the old one from 1993 is rated at max at 750watts.
     
  5. Lightingguy32

    Lightingguy32 Active Member

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    Actually the original lamp cap was four pieces, 2 each of porcelain and ceramic. Now the socket is a single piece of ceramic and steatite with a floating contact construction to insure that the lamp pins contact the electrical contacts in the socket.
    Here is the link to the spec sheet:http://dafnwebpd.sylvania.com/idmweb/doccontent.dll?LibraryName=ecomcspd^dafnctpd&SystemType=2&LogonId=d73809c31d1c4740258b153e5040d58d&DocId=003689651&Page=1
    keep in mind all source fours that are produced (2006 on) now have this Osram TP22H socket as the standard socket.
     
  6. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    This is all very helpful, thanks. Lightinguy, your link was dead, will have to try searching Sylvania's site.
     
  7. Lightingguy32

    Lightingguy32 Active Member

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    I am guessing you still have the older version of the TP-22 socket where they used hollowed out gold cylinder contacts insulated by mica and ceramic. These sockets are ok but usually end up having loads of issues and eventually they will short out and die or cause large amounts of arcing. My advice is if you have the money, update all of the old- Gold style TP-22 sockets with the new Osram TP22H socket.
     
  8. avkid

    avkid Not a New User Fight Leukemia

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    I went through the link and removed some characters to get the base site, it appears to be a database that requires a login.
    http://dafnwebpd.sylvania.com/idmweb/home.asp
     
  9. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    "One has 4 pins that protrude from the fixture, and the lamp caps have matching holes allowing them to fit."


    Some of the really old 575w fixtures did have four keyway nubs that would not allow the new 750w cap to work. Believe these were on the fixture side - just square shapes sticking up. Been a few years since I have seen any, but over the years of those not sold off, I did initially grind away at a huge amount of keyways.

    I followed ETC's direct recommendation to cut off than grind flat the keyway nubs. There was no other differences in the fixture other than at the lamp base between and cutting would be fine so it would accept the 750w caps.
     
    icewolf08 likes this.
  10. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    That is good to know Ship. I had never noticed it until the hang for Les Mis last month. The best part of that story is that the LD was Karl Haas from ETC and he had no knowledge of that either.
     
  11. stantonsound

    stantonsound Active Member

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    Speaking of S4 lamps, I am going to hi-jack the thread for a minute. Has anyone noticed a quality problem with the OSRAM HPL's lately? I had just bought a dozen or so lamps from my local shop, and when I put the first one in a fixture and plugged it in, the end of the lamp shattered. I took it out and replaced it with another new one. With that one, the ceramic base had a broken piece which sheared off when I was seating it.

    I took them to the shop, and they replaced them as well as 3 others with the same lot numbers. They said that it is common, and they can return them for credit. I was surprised, as I had not had problems like this before.
     
  12. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Returning for credit is common to all brands of lamp - no one brand of HPL or other type of lamp is superior to another at this wattage of lamp. Used to publically fight the ETC brand for bad lot numbers, got some private calls to follow such issues such as bent or otherwise lamp caps that didn't fit or retain the lamps sufficiently etc. Got nowhere in the end at least early on though the problems have perhaps lessened between the fixtures it took a pipe and hammer to seat the lamps with and the fixtures where you open the cap and the lamp falls out being a bit less likely to find. The early ceramic lamps had difficulties in both extracting and inserting and breaking often.

    Used to despise the ceramic base that the industry is still at odds about, these days one HPL is as good as another in my professional opinion. Let me state it again, one brand of HPL is just as good as another in my professional opinion and I am not taking sides.

    All have lot number problems at times, and all work sufficiently 99% of the time. Lamps blowing upon turning on... it's possible but very rare.

    Below is some initial problems in say heat shinks breaking upon extraction with a "church key" as the only way to remove a otherwise stuck lamp. I like aluminum bases but overall for HPL's buy what's cheapest and have not had any complaints over what's quality between GE, Phillips, Osram and Ushio. All preform equally well in my opinion these days and I do use all of them.

    Hope it helps, at times one brand to another you will get an off lot but it's really rare. Don't get like my mentour in his no longer buying anything with a GE brand name on it if he can help it. Gee, you could have saved two bucks each on GE type GLA lamps but some past experiences with HX-600 lamps you had but I didn't tells you that only the Phillips will work in your situation due to the lesser quality of the GE. Funny, I had a pre-market GE/Thorn HX-600 and probably still have it 15 years plus later, this much less never had similar problems he noted in them being more fragile. Don't get like this TD in holding an opinion of a brand, this especially if it takes you to a brand in general even for lamps developed 10 plus years after the ones he had a problem with. The extra money he spends due to his hate of one brand doesn't do any service to where he works and is un-supported with more than his own observation.

    In other words, nope once in a while I'll also get a bad lot number of fill in the blank brand and type of lamp. Heck, for Martan Mac 2K fixtures, I don't accept the MSR 1200SA/DE lamp as a valid lamp - when we get them I send them back and get HMI 1200w/S lamps. That's based upon proof in me tracking lamp hours - simply put the Phillips lamp is lucky to reach it's expected lamp life, on average the Osram lamp reaches it and gets up to double it. That's based upon literally hundreds of lamps all with serial numbers on them tracking individual lamps and lamp hours tracked. Or in the case of the Phillips lamp that doesn't have a serial number in another problem I have with them - gee the lamp cost more than the day rate of the person installing it and it doesn't have a serial number... none the less, we scribe a serial number into them and track individual lamps. Osram Mac 2K lamps are better. On the other hand when given the choice between a Osram HTI 705w/SE and a Phillips MSR 700SA lamp, I choose the Phillips lamp due to also tracked hours, this plus lack of serial numbers on the Osram lamp. ETC, ETC. ETC. This is all big expensive lamps, for a HPL lamp, I don't track them as well but do note trends and have sent back bad lots before no matter the brand.

    Beyond this all is advice to check your lamp base. Problem possibly not related but potentially a trashed lamp base that works fine with some brands but not with others. It happens at times.
     
  13. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    here is an example of an early fight I was having with a light porcelain verses dark porcelain heat shink, this following the aluminum heat sink. Don't see this problem much these days but it was common when porcelain bases came out. This much less they seemed to be harder to get into the socket initially.

    One notes a broken Ushio lamp next to a perfectly fine Osram lamp.
     

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  14. stantonsound

    stantonsound Active Member

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    My goal wasn't to badmouth any one particular brand, but rather to see how big the problem is(if there really is one). I probably go through 40-50 lamps a year for the S4's, and really never have a problem. I have had a few arrive broken, but that is to be expected. It surprised me that this happened and I wanted to talk about it a little bit, that is all.

    I do not track the HPL's either, as my fixtures go out on rent and to be honest, I do not have each leko or par identified with a serial or inventory control number. They have a band of red paint on the back of the yolk, and a dab or two in the same place out of sight, but that is it. 10 go out to a customer, 10 come in....and if they all work and have the red stripe, I am happy. I have no idea how many hours they have. The movers are different, I do check the hour counter before and after each, and will possibly send an extra lamp when I get to within 200 hours of the lamps expected life (although I will always bring and install a burned out lamp at any time for no extra charge). I just hate sending out a $100 lamp and not know who is going to install it, nor do I really want anyone opening my movers.

    ok...back to the original topic, sorry for the hijack.
     
  15. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    Well, i am going to bump this thread back up because I have some new information. Talked to Karl this morning, who has talked to the Source Four project mangers and found out what the story is with the pins that I was asking about in my original post. Apparently they were used in the original casting design as a point for the machinery to hold on to during the manufacturing process. This was changed as the machinery was updated, though it was not a design change. The official word from them was that it is fine to grind off the pins so that the bodies are compatible with all lamp caps.
     
  16. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    The sheering was a problem with most brands that went ceramic instead of alumimum heat sink. Serious problem, this lack of strength in addition to such lamps at times having to go into - let's put it kindly not so well cast lamp base assemblies on the fixtures. The aluminum ones would pound into place, the ceramic ones would break. This much less in extracting them. One will find a "Backstage Handbook" tool named the "Church Key" is a very good tool for the lighting department to have in extracting lamps.

    The Osram Ceramic lamp had a bit less problems with this than the Ushio lamp. Phillips the late comer did aluminum and sticks by it as they should. This given someone screwed up on their end in keeping up with technology or the market and the vendor reps were upon introduction of their own version with aluminum sink than shown a ceramic version quite surprised... interested. The rest of the market was already ceramic having long given up on aluminum - heads in the sand it would seem. GE, forget which HPL heat sink material they use. I buy them all in main brand and use all in accepting that they in the end are all the same with and without any huge problem in 99% of the instances.

    Reason given for going ceramic as I remember it was better heat disipation and better resistance to moisture which those that went ceramic did press releases announcing this improvement on. Can't say this moisture has been a problem but I could see a potential problem if the fixture gets wet given an aluminum heat sink. I however remember something like 600 S-4 PAR's arriving one weekend that had to be prepped to go out the door, and me on about 10% of the fixtures needing a steel pipe and rubber mallet to seat the lamps. Ceramic ones broke right away, finally started using a aluminum one to make the lamp fit, than removing it and putting in a ceramic one at some point.

    Good news however on HPL lamp product development. Ushio's fairly fragile ceramic lamp bases are about to become upgraded to a super slick version of them which not only in my being handed one a few weeks ago is as if oil coated, and is said to be much stronger and also disipate more heat than any other heat sink currently available (at least that's what I was told...) This given the other three don't have as much problems with sink breakage, should put Ushio back on line with something not as easy to break. If not one step ahead. Their improved heat sink is about to come to market as soon as the stocks in the old versions get deplentished.

    (Again, not saying that an Ushio lamp is better - years ago they were in a more refined and less problematic lamp, all since than make the same basic reliable lamp I believe. Just an upgrade to these lamps long needed.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2007
  17. Lightingguy32

    Lightingguy32 Active Member

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    Hey ship, didn't Ushio at one time also use the aluminum Heat sink on their HPL lamps? Also, I am noticing a slight variation in the type of socket I am receiving as factory installed from ETC, half of the 2006 units we have have the older single piece TP220 socket assembly (contacts and everything riveted together), while the other half of the 2006 fixtures have the new Osram TP-22H socket. I have to say I am a fan of the osram socket, since I used to have huge issues with the older 4 piece TP22 Gold sockets (pitting, arcing, shorting out, lamp pins getting welded into the base during a short...)
     

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