Source Four Par Lens question.

How important is the oblong beam of the MFL and WFL?

  • VERY Important

    Votes: 12 34.3%

  • Important

    Votes: 18 51.4%

  • Not that important

    Votes: 4 11.4%

  • Who cares!

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • Total voters
    35
J

Jim Uphoff

Member
Hello,
My name is Jim and I am the fixture product manager for Fixtures at ETC. I have a quick question for anyone that would be willing to take the time to answer. Our supplier for the lenses we ship with all S4 Par fixtures is stopping production of those lenses. We are being forced to source a new supplier and have found an alternative. The lenses, however, are not exactly the same. Most notably, the MFL and WFL would go from being oblong to being round. (see the chart below) Thoughts? Would this negatively impact your ability to use the fixtures? Is the oblong quality of those lenses the reason you use them? Would there be any advantages to the new, round beam? Also, you could just answer the poll. One thing to note is that the other lenses we have been shipping have always been round.


Lens
Field angle Horizontal
Field angle Vertical
Beam angle Horizontal
Beam angle Vertical

MFL
23.4
31.4
12.7
18.5

WFL
36.5
51.0
20.0
30.6

30 deg Round
30.1
30.1
16.5
16.5

45 deg Round
40.5
40.5
22.9
22.9
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Thanks for looking.

Jim Uphoff
ETC
 
At this point in time I think it's very important. If nothing else for the sake of continuity. If I bought more s4 pars to add to my inventory and all of a sudden the lenses produced a very different beam pattern I would be furious. If they were all round or all oval then no big deal. But having them mixed is going to make it very difficult for users to get an even wash.
 
Although as a designer it wouldn't bother me. As an ME it might especially at first.
My inventory would no longer be consistant if I add fixtures or I break and replace a lens.
Designers coming in may not realize that PARs are now round.
Though focus would be even faster then a Fresnel. It's literally just point it here... done... no other options (maybe a barn door or black wrap)
 
I never considered the MFL or WFL to be very oval. So in that sense it's not very important.

But I completely agree that they should be considered completely different lenses rather than replacements. Knowing what they are is the key. And yet one more technical complexity to deal with in any given house is not a happy thought.
 
Thanks for the early input. I should clarify that the new lenses would not be dropped in and sold as if they were the old lenses, they would just be the new offerings that we would have. We would name them differently and label them as such.
 
I reach for MFL and WFL PARs because they're not round. At the moment, I can drop a S4 PAR in for a 1KW tin can and its approximately the same shape/size with the convience of not having to relamp to change lenses. Chaning MFL and WFL to be different would negate to me one of the S4 PARs advantages over the traditional 1KW PAR can.
 
I think of the hundreds of non WFL lenses sitting at my projects, never to be used for the houselights. I'll guess thousands.
 
My usual response when given to two choices is the third option: why not both? If one manufacturer won't offer it, why not another?

There are plenty of instances I find the oval beam extremely helpful -- it makes for nice, beautifully blended areas across a stage for dance, for example, as I often want to light just one lane.

Side note, is there a reason you're calling the last one a "45-degree beam" instead of a "40-degree beam," which is closer to its specification? Also, how do these line up compared to the diffusion filters offered for the ColorSource PAR / Selador D40 and D60s?
 
I know a lot of people who hated Source Four PAR's because they couldn't get a round beam at the wider angles. They preferred fresnels which for a long time ETC didn't offer. Now that they do, I'm not sure there's such a sizable group any more for people wanting large diameter round beams out of fixtures. Personally, I found that the oblong beams were easier to organize into a theater plot. Pointed straight down, they divided better between rows of fixtures from 1st electric, 2nd electric, etc. Used as back or front light, I liked how I could get a beam that covered wider on-stage without blowing up all over the cyc or all into the audience. I think a perfectly round beam at a wide angle might have a tendency to spill where I don't want it to without using barn doors all the time.

The use of oblong beams in my designs was never really an exact science as much as it was just something I got used to. The day-in-day-out rental and staging shops might have more diehard preferences.

The MFL's never seemed all that oblong to me except at extreme trim heights. I'm not sure I'd notice a circular beam much except on the WFL's and XWFL's.
 
Mike nailed it.

I have ParNels and would have purchased more then the 12 I own, but the beam is not wide enough at full flood. Output is great though. A wide S4 Par with oval beam works great for me. If there were some add'l spreads available in round - Medium/Wide, Wide/Medium, Wide, Very Wide, then round might work. As example and using your chart above, you probably want a 36 deg. and 50 deg. round.
 
Meh... The MFL is plenty oval shaped, not as much as a PAR64, but if you have focused more than a few 120k rigs, you would notice. That being said, NSP and VNSP Source Fours are a round beam, but the Par64 equivalents are oval because of the shape of the filament. Rock an roll guys adapted pretty quick to S4 over par 64.

Anyway, I think its a moot point. Nobody should be buying new conventional fixtures or dimming at this point anyway. Side note-Parnels are great...if you want splotchy uneven lighting.
 
Jim Uphoff said:
Would this negatively impact your ability to use the fixtures?
Click to expand...
Yes.
Jim Uphoff said:
Is the oblong quality of those lenses the reason you use them?
Click to expand...
Yes.
Jim Uphoff said:
Would there be any advantages to the new, round beam?
Click to expand...
No.
Jim Uphoff said:
One thing to note is that the other lenses we have been shipping have always been round.
Click to expand...
And I for one have always despised them for that.

Long live OVALs; death to CIRCLEs.

OvalbeamFS_44N8.jpg

https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/oval-beam-fresnel-fixture-notes.21662/
 
I'm of the opinion that I always want more tools. I most frequently go to PARs for the oval beam over a fresnel or parnel. Occasionally I'll go another route. But for a venue with a lot of S4 PARs, that's a sweet tool to be able to swap a lens and get a WFL beam that's round. I won't use it nearly as often as I do the standard WFL and MFL lenses, but I'd definitely keep a few in stock.
 
From a design perspective I'd love to have the choice. In small black box venues with low trims, the narrow axis of the WFL is sometimes too narrow for good coverage. and a ~50deg (or wider) round would be great. . But, as others have pointed out, as back- or side-light in a proscenium theatre, the oblong is very useful.

From an ME perspective, I'd hate to lose the ability to match my existing inventory, and to sub S4 PARs for PAR 64s, so if I had to choose, I'd choose oblong.
 
Was there ever a determination on this? Does ETC still offer "classic" MFL and WFL lenses?
 
BillConnerFASTC said:
Are they still only available in a set - VNS through W? and EW singly?
Click to expand...

They are currently still available individually or as set of 4 without the Extra Wide. Model numbers are below.

400–VNSP Very Narrow Spot lens
400–NSP Narrow Spot lens
400–MFL Medium Flood lens
400–WFL Wide Flood lens
400–LS4 Set of four Source Four PAR lenses (VNSP, NSP, MFL, WFL)
400-XWFL Extra Wide Flood lens

I am not aware about the manufacturer switch or if a new one has been found, but I do know that you can currently order any of the lenses. They are also the same lenses that are used in the S4wrd PAR.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Back