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Source Four® Revolution

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by wemeck, Sep 23, 2003.

  1. wemeck

    wemeck Active Member

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    Looks like ETC is or has come up with their own flavor of automated lights. More Here:
    http://www.etcconnect.com/websplash/revolution.asp

    Was wondering if anybody else heard anything about this? or maybe saw one at a trade show/field trip?
     
  2. wolf825

    wolf825 Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    I saw the advertisement for this...seems to be to be a source-4 in an auto-yoke...at twice the price of either. ETC tried making a moving light before...it failed miserably..like the Parnell. Hmm...be interesting to see how this one actually sells or works soon tho...

    wolf
     
  3. wemeck

    wemeck Active Member

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    Hmmmmm... We are talking about fazing out our 8" & 10" Kliegl Fresnels with Parnells. What issues, negative or otherwise, do Parnells have?



    p.s. Forgot to mention the 10: Fresnels as well. oop!
     
  4. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    From past articles in Stagecraft, the new ETC fixture seems interesting enough, but the only stuff I heard about it was there. Didn't get one in the shop yet to play test that I can remember. In other words, no tour designers we deal with want them yet. Mac 2K's and VL-1000s are still the king of the request inventory. That's touring however and it sounds like you are doing stage. The ETC fixtures would have the advantage of being quieter as Stagecraft said.

    On the Parnel, also on Stagecraft I remember some reviews about them as having some large differences in the optics or how it looks. For me that was a deal killer. Can't say I have ever used them but, I'm kind of an old technology person and like the look of a 8" Fresnel. Especially if your Kliegls have the crank adjustment to them. Should be the same lens and lamp base as on an altman fixture, plus the reflector is easily retrofit with an Altman one - thus very easy to make modern given the weight is not too much.

    Unfortunately there is no modern 115v higher color temperature lamp available for them that would be a good selling feature for a Parnel. You are what using a 1Kw BVT?
    If you use a GE or believe it or not, Wiko BVV lamp, it should be much brighter than even a FEL. The rest of the brands of 1K BVV are less intense. Still it's a 120v lamp instead of 115v with a Parnel, but it's color temperature is still 1,500K higher than that of a BVT. Granted they are rated for 200 instead of 500hrs, but a Parnel with a normal high output lamp is only going to be rated for 300hrs - not much more different. If a Parnel is using a HPL 750 lamp??? than it's luminous output is only 21,000 Lumens for a Ushio as the brightest. That verses the GE BVV that is 28,500 Lumens and the same color temperature, just higher voltage.

    Might be an option to replace reflectors, do a major service call and up the lamps???

    If nothing else, don't throw them out. Put an add in the reader, contact the Athanaeum theater, and E-Bay them. Good fixtures.
     
  5. delnor

    delnor Active Member

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    I read a bit about them from both the etcconnect.com site as well as etcnow.com ( http://62.232.79.101/etnews.nsf/0/b6e3de929fe29d3280256d9b004ffbe7?OpenDocument )

    It seems to me that they are built with the intention of being almost a replacement for a regular source four, or rather I would say they would allow you to have fewer instruments in the same space on stage. They have a lot of impressive design features that not many automated have, such as the QXL lamps and a modular interior design that allows both color mixing and the use of regular stage gels. I would be interested to know how much they actually cost.
     
  6. teksalot

    teksalot Member

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    We're getting 5 soon. :D So I'll be able to give a review hopefully.
     
  7. delnor

    delnor Active Member

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    Very cool, are you with a school, production house or vender?
     
  8. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Interesting fixture, wonder why it has not been talked about in the office yet now given the interest elsewhere? For the most part, you name the new lighting toy, we buy it. We have had the newest Martin (which is the best) and HES moving light boards for months now to play test much less buy all the "latest gear." We even have the newest followspot the Lycian M-2.

    I'll ask our buyer for moving lights and post what he thinks. This might be a good question to post in at least for us why we did not play test it or buy into it for road shows. He was not, as I was not impressed with the HES Color Command but we bought 8 out of the 30 or 40 expected anyway. I'll be interested to see what he thinks as a buyer about the ETC fixture as would I'm sure it be interesting for all on a production copmpany type level what we buy or why we pass it up. Side note on the Color Command, today I inquired about the quote for lamps I priced out earlier for them because a vendor did a major price dropping on them for me this morning based upon what others bid for the lamp. They are almost a reasonable price now.

    So the buyer tells me "Oh', (pause) we have 8 of them (the Color Command) arriving next week (let me verify this, yep,) without lamps. (We already have two of them in the shop - I stole the dual shipping box already), can you get me 12 lamps for Tuesday, or the show they are going out on leaves Wendsday morning - for than at the latest?" By the way it's 5PM CST on a Friday and the East and Central coast have already shut down. In other words, the only vendors that can still ship are on the West Coast and none of them have the new lamp in stock yet... "sure, I'll give it a shot but won't know until Monday if you are screwed or not" if that West Coast - by chance vendor that was cheapest but does not stock the lamp yet, "can get, than ship overnight for Tuesday or Wed. morning." (Sorry but I did not ask what rock tour it was for to add suspense.)

    Happens all the time for me. Bought $7K worth of lamps today just for normal stock (not including new fixtures I was not told about, or another $10K worth of lamps that I'm getting dangerously low on.)

    Point is that when you buy a fixture, you had at best ensure you both have lamps, safety cables (I keep 100 extra as emergency stock at all times), clamps (I keep 48 extra) and lamps (on normal fixtures I keep 60 to 100 extra) in stock or more important - on order for at least the same amount of lead time as you give to the lighting fixutres or you just might have fixtures without lamps and accessories.

    Don't be caught like that club in the Chicago area that didn't have any lamps for their LCD projectors because he did not buy spares and the supplier took a month off in shipping lamps to the US (About two more weeks and I'll have lamps for him or at least my own stock - he actually found another source with 8 of them in stock at $100.00 each more than his normal price and bought them at $450.00 each for four.) Or like this possible even more high profile show leaving next week that might not have lamps to it's Color Command fixtures since they use a very special high output version of a Altman 360Q Leko 750w GLD lamp that might not be generally available in the US yet. Could buy them from High End, but they would cost $5.00 per lamp more and that's cutting into my profit sharing.

    Production houses/touring companies and Vendors have a very different look on fixtures and lamps than schools. Thus my own imput in the subject if it helps. Hope the info I give on real world helps in the global picture. In the smaller setting, I disagree adamitely with the idea that one moving light is going to be more worthwile than a number of individual lighting fixtures that will be in my opinion just as useful or valuable for the money.
     
  9. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Just read a set of reviews on the ETC fixture that were very interesting on Lighting network http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=lightnetwork&msg=12091.1

    Amongst them was the point that it's a sub-1KW lamp in the fixture. In other words, while the 750w lamp is bright, it won't be any where near as bright as the lamp in the VeriLite VL-1000, much less any HMI/MSR 575w moving light source. Something to note if you want some punch as a moving light over just another Leko in intensity. Got the fancy scroller/pattern option yes, but do they in output compete well against the rest of the lighting?

    Anyway, another source/link to look at in it's own review.
     
  10. wemeck

    wemeck Active Member

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    I took a look at the 10" Fresnel and it has a CYX Lamp which looks to read 2K on the watts.

    The Parnells can use 575w Lamps or 750. We have a combination of the older source four ellips and the newer 750s, plus pars and afew parnells. To make the lighting designers life more pleasant we just use a 575w lamp across all the instruments. Plus not to mention we do not what a student accidently putting a 750w lamp in an older source four ellips.
     
  11. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    “I took a look at the 10" Fresnel and it has a CYX Lamp which looks to read 2K on the watts.”

    10" Fixtures with a CYX lamp, those are studio/movie lamps. I keep at least 16 CYX lamps in stock at all times - more like 20 or 30 but they are always out on shows.
    And you want to get rid of them? 10" size, they are probably rated for a 5Kw load and very expensive - like hundreds of dollars each. What size wire is feeding it, 14/3 Suprenat Heatzone, or 6/3 SO with a switch and 60 amp plug? That’s because a Altaman #2000L has about a 6" lens for it’s CYX lamp but uses the 14/3, but a 10" Altman 5000L uses a 5K DPY lamp and huge plug.

    I have experience with them and similar 10" Strand Bambinos, but no others that are 10" but have a 2Kw lamp. Could be a stage light in that size lens with a high for stage wattage lamp, but it’s also possible that it’s a studio Fresnel lamped down. In either case, that Fresnel is worth money given appropriate 6Kw dimmers or dimmer per circuit to make them useful. Certainly your Parnel is not going to have anywhere near the output. It’s not even near a applicable replacement on beam spread alone much less lamp intensity. 59,000 Lumens verses at best 22,000 Lumens per lamp.

    Here is something of interest, Thorn/GE aka Nelson Lamps ( L.E. Nelson Sales Corp (702)367-3656 (Lamp Distributer) ) no website they are barbarians but are the only true Thorn distributer for that line - others like All bulbs buy from them for Thorn. They list a improved CYX lamp that might be worth a try if your color temperature is too low. (HX-2400/CYX G.E./Thorn Planar Grid Filmt. 2.4Kw/115v G-38 3,200°K/400hr - that's all the info on the lamp that exists at this time since Thorn itself proper also does not have a website.

    It’s a FLK/HX-600/HPL type 115v lamp that would have that higher blue color temperature and has 100more hours of life, plus I expect even though the specs are not completely out on the lamp yet, it’s going to have a larger Luminous output especially since it’s 115v. I considered switching my own 2K studio Fresnels to it but it would cost too much to do a lamp swap and as yet nobody has asked for a more intense lamp than a normal CYX when they didn’t already request a 5K fixture.

    In other words, if you lamps are dim at full output compared to a ETC fixture, go for the upgraded lamp than see if you want to switch because one of these 10" Fresnels is worth at least two 6" fresnels or Parnels if not more.

    That said, if you are not using them for their full 2Kw output, and I cannot see a reason to be using them at full 2Kw on a stage, I would look into just lampping them down to 1Kw without necessitating new fixtures. Look into the following:
    Q1000T20BP G.E. #41734 CL, Quartz 1 Kw/120v T-20 cc-8 LCL 4" Mog. BP/G-38 3,050°K 22,400 Lum 3,000hr.

    It’s LCL is 1" smaller than that of a CYX, but adding 1" of steel or aluminum plate under a lamp base for that amount of life is easy to do. Go for the improved Altman pulse rated #58-0003 lamp base if you can, it's better if not of the Euro rectangular style that most fixtures have gone to that don't mount to the same mounting screws as the older version. G-38 lamp bases are a pain in the rear - there is two versions out there now.

    Otherwise, there is the CYV that has a 1Kw resistance but only 200hrs life. Remember a HPL is only 300hrs so that’s no big deal considering the lamps will usually be under a dimmer. As long as you are not also using them for work lights, it should be fine. Philips #6995Y if still available lists a 240hr version CYV off their Euro catalog as the best, otherwise Philps and Ushio make the highest lumen output lamps on the market for a CYV. Your CYX what ever brand only lists a 300 hr. life in the first place anyway, (Osram and Wiko are the worst output by the way.)

    There is also the 1.5Kw CXZ at 325hrs. Anything but Osram and Wiko will be of the best intensity. Even better than that, Ushio makes a CYZ that’s higher output than the CXZ and longer life still at 400hrs. In either case of wattage, if your usual intensity is at 75% or 50%, instead of fighting amber shift, it’s better to put a lamp in it at that wattage - than see what value a Parnel is. Might be archaic and heavy, but it’s a 10" Fresnel and worth every pound. What does it take all of 5 to completely cover a mainstage - and you already own them. Talking about easy to focus with a wash and blend, a 10" Fresnel is the king of the heap.

    There are options for keeping the 10" Fresnels in service.

    “The Parnells can use 575w Lamps or 750. We have a combination of the older source four ellips and the newer 750s, plus pars and afew parnells. To make the lighting designers life more pleasant we just use a 575w lamp across all the instruments. Plus not to mention we do not what a student accidently putting a 750w lamp in an older source four ellips.”

    You have physical access to the Parnel. Is there a difference that you can detect in beam between that and a 6" Fresnel as noted on other forums? From what I understand, there is and it’s a deal killer non-replacement fixture.

    You realize that you can just buy new lamp caps than upgrade your 575w fixtures to 750w? Depending upon what lot number/age of 575w fixture you have you might have to grinder away a few keyways, but otherwise it’s the same fixture. That’s straight mojo from ETC - when the 750 came out, we upgraded and did verify. Granted we sold off the older 575's since than but that’s normal for us in not having line fixtures older than 3 years old at this point. The “improved” lamp base upgrade does work and there is no changes to reflector or lenses that needs to be done. You might have to swap out yokes or take off the handles, but other than a longer length at the cap, and 16ga instead of 18ga wire, it’s the same cap and fixture.

    Otherwise, keeping a theater at 575w is nothing to grouse about, it’s putting out about an accurate 800w of halogen light and that should be enough in most instances. Theater light levels can be less than rock. In any case, unless your tech people pull the spring pin off a 750w lamp, it’s impossible to install it into a 575w fixture just as it’s impossible to install a 240v lamp in such a fixture without pulling the pin mounted on the opposite side of the lamp. That’s a smacking upside the head offense in itself to yank a pin. Smack the first tech that yanks the pin as I have, and you don’t have to worry about future offenses - word gets around hopefully because it’s not easy to re-install them and the wattage of a lamp as printed does frequently wear off. The major difference in lamp bases aside from the new ones sucking is that it’s wired with 16ga instead of 18ga wire. The 18ga wire can handle a 750w load just fine for a short amount of time - yanked a pin myself in the field a time or two (on my rare show before we got rid of the last of the 575's), but it should not be done permanently.

    Don’t replace the 10" Fresnels before you put the upgraded lamp or proper wattage lamps in them. In my opinion, it’s a fixture similar to a 8" Fresnel that is unique to the stage and has not been improved upon for that purpose especially by anything on the market by ETC. Kind of like replacing a Lycian M2 with a Altman 1000Q. Not the same class even if the same type. Consider wisely please, it's not just you that will live with your deciscions, it's future designers and tech people.
     
  12. wemeck

    wemeck Active Member

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    We would probably not throw them out or give them away. We have a few venues throughout the building where fresnels would come in handy. The idea of changing out to a higher wattage lamp sounded great, until I remembered that we have 2.4Kw dimmers. So a 5Kw lamp would not work. The other reason why we were looking at parnells is the size and weight of the fresnels to the parnells. During the summer stock rental of Kiss Me Kate we ran out of weights, and arbor space on our first electric.
     
  13. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    That's given you have studio Fresnels and not some ancient 10" normal one. Does it look like a normal Fresnel? If that's the case, and it does not have 6/3 wire feeding it, putting a 5Kw lamp in the fixture would be a really bad idea.

    For the other theater's useage, here are some other lamps to look into.

    The Q1000T20BP G.E. #41734 is a 1Kw lamp that lists an astounding 3,000 hours but only 22,400 Lumens. In other words, it's going to be slightly dimmer than the stock 8" Fresnel with a 1Kw BVT lamp at 24,500 Lum, but you will never need to replace it. Note, it's LCL/Focal length is 1" shorter but that's easy to correct for with a 1" tall shim. Otherwise, they also make a CYV 1Kw lamp that if GE or Ushio lists a 28,500 Lumens at 200 hours as opposed to the 500 on the BVT. This lamp is a direct replacement for the CYX and won't be discontinued very soon. Two good options.

    Than there is the 1200T20 G.E. #22524 which is a 1.2Kw/115v lamp which might have the color temperature of a Parnel/S-4 Par given the voltage, puts out 29,600 Lumens at and 750 hours of life at 115v. In other words, it's probably going to be a little less in life, but higher than the stock 2,800K color temperature of a incandescent lamp, and much higher in output than what's listed. Might be a high color temperature incandescent lamp, but also it might be a normal color temperature lamp.

    It's not listed and since these lamps are not ANSI coded and normal lamps it's very likely that they will become discontinued unless they have a specific profitable architectural application that I don't believe is keeping them active since the last publishing of the 2003 catalog which I believe they were in. In other words, if you can get them still and want them, buy a bulk amount of them because the lamps are probably on the chopping block. It will also be cheaper to buy the lamp by the case load.

    This 1.2 Kw lamp is a good lamp and you can have 2 per dimmer. That's maxing output for dimmer size. It's also a 4" LCL, but good lamp given it's still made. Since it and the Q1000T20BP are both T-20 lamps, they will both be incandescent - large bulbs and have a lower starting color temperature in theory at least. It's also posible that the MOL of the lamp (Maximum Overall Length - total bulb size,) will be too large to fit in the fixture. Not very likely, but something to go on-line and verify it will fit before you order them if you don't want to be stuck with them or get a 15% restocking charge.

    The lamps are good options, especially the 1.2Kw lamp however for saving dimmer space and using the fixtures as if 8" Fresnels, and to their fullest capabilities. Remember, that a CYX lamp is going to be really bright on stage. We are talking about a lot of light from it - especially if the improved version. Given the improved CYX, it might still be a good option for video lighting. In dimming them to get the required light level for stage, not only is amber shift going to become a harsh factor, but because the beam for the most part tapers out towards it's edges, as you dim it, it's beam spread of useful light is also going to narrow. Better to lamp them down than dim them as a general rule.
     

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