Loudspeakers Speakers for tiny theater

[38octillionlumens]

We're renovating a very small theater space and I'm trying to find appropriate speakers. It's an odd, asymmetrical space, but it's about 50 feet wide, 30 feet deep, and 12 feet high, with no clear separation between the audience area and the performance area. I don't think it's ever been used for any sort of live sound reinforcement before, but the idea is that we want to start having shows which will require vocal reinforcement, along with some pre-recorded music and sound effects. We're not anticipating any live music at this point. Because the space is so small, I want to avoid complete overkill with the loudspeakers, but I do want them to sound good and be up to the task. I had figured we could afford two speakers at about $750 each, though there's some wiggle room there. They would be mounted to the ceiling, on either side of a projection screen, which is embedded in the wall. We've mostly gone with JBL products in the past, and we've been happy with them, but most of what I'm familiar with is too much for this space. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks!

 

[neotrotsky]

The key is to put sound where you want it, and not about power per se. It's a small space, but difficult since it's very wide and shallow (The optimum hall is actually quite the opposite of what you have). My first task would be finding out where to place your primary mains by determining their spread. Once you know what area they cover, you can determine where to place them. ALWAYS fly your mains if you have a small venue, which you are doing. It increases their spread and allows you to have the most directional reinforcement but you may find that having them right alongside the projector screen may not be the best fit. Again, don't put the cart before the horse and pay attention to the spread of what speakers you buy before you start determining where to hang them.


What I would strongly suggest beyond mains is adding an additional set of smaller speakers. In this configuration I would get mains with a wide enough spread that I could put them further downstage and angle them hard to sweep the audience in a nice cross pattern, and then use a set of smaller speakers flanking the screen (again, depending on spread), set up on a separate output from the board. This way you can pump a main mix into the house, but reinforce voices or certain elements of a performance that you want to leave with a more "acoustic" sound. This will help avoid the typical "loudspeaker" effect and allow you to mix the house easier and with less power. This way, each speaker needs to produce less amplitude to get a clear sound, thus producing a cleaner sound.

Your budget may be small, but it's not horrible and if you have an amp already, it can be done. But, if you don't have an amp, there is still hope for Active speakers that sound good. If you like JBL (Which can get VERY expensive) I would STRONGLY suggest looking into Alto speakers. I recently just bought 4 of the 10" units for a Jazz club I work with and they are amazingly the best bang for the buck. I was leery until a score of Jazz musicians suggested I take a chance and audition them. They sound better than anything Mackie or yamaha within twice that price range, and have plenty of options for input. Did I mention that they are active speakers at 600w each that cost less than equivalent passive JBL's? If you get a chance, audition some Altos and you'll find they are some fine speakers for the cost. They make them in 10", 12" and 15" with the TS115A running $349 400/800W. You may not even need that much power for such a small venue, but I would strongly suggest a 4-speaker setup to get the most out of it.

 

[museav]

I had figured we could afford two speakers at about $750 each, though there's some wiggle room there. They would be mounted to the ceiling, on either side of a projection screen, which is embedded in the wall.

Does that $750 per speaker have to cover the related cable and mounting hardware? What about amplification and processing or getting power to the speakers if you use powered boxes?

 

[38octillionlumens]

Does that $750 per speaker have to cover the related cable and mounting hardware? What about amplification and processing or getting power to the speakers if you use powered boxes?

It doesn't necessarily have to cover all that. The $750 per could be seen as more of an aspirational goal. If we had to end up spending $2,000, say, I *think* we could swing it. For cabling and such, I expect to be able to pull from our existing stock.

 

[38octillionlumens]

$2,000 *total* I should say, not per.

 

[38octillionlumens]

The key is to put sound where you want it, and not about power per se. It's a small space, but difficult since it's very wide and shallow (The optimum hall is actually quite the opposite of what you have). My first task would be finding out where to place your primary mains by determining their spread. Once you know what area they cover, you can determine where to place them. ALWAYS fly your mains if you have a small venue, which you are doing. It increases their spread and allows you to have the most directional reinforcement but you may find that having them right alongside the projector screen may not be the best fit. Again, don't put the cart before the horse and pay attention to the spread of what speakers you buy before you start determining where to hang them.


What I would strongly suggest beyond mains is adding an additional set of smaller speakers. In this configuration I would get mains with a wide enough spread that I could put them further downstage and angle them hard to sweep the audience in a nice cross pattern, and then use a set of smaller speakers flanking the screen (again, depending on spread), set up on a separate output from the board. This way you can pump a main mix into the house, but reinforce voices or certain elements of a performance that you want to leave with a more "acoustic" sound. This will help avoid the typical "loudspeaker" effect and allow you to mix the house easier and with less power. This way, each speaker needs to produce less amplitude to get a clear sound, thus producing a cleaner sound.

Your point about placement is well taken. Looking at the space, it does seem that a pair of speakers with a 90 degree horizontal spread, flown on either side of the screen (say about 15 feet apart) and angled inwards, could give good two-channel coverage of the (somewhat amorphous) seating area. The alternate configuration you suggest with a second set of speakers is an interesting idea. When moving the mains farther downstage, I worry a little bit about people who are sitting much closer to one speaker than to the other (maybe inevitable in this room), but maybe having more speakers could mitigate this somewhat, too.

 

[pmolsonmus]

Take a look at the QSC K line as well. I love JBL, but for your price range and space, you could likely get away with the K5s. If live music is in the future the K12s are fantastic powered speakers and have a built in eq to enhance vocal clarity.

 

[dvsDave]

We use the K8s and love them.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[museav]

It doesn't necessarily have to cover all that. The $750 per could be seen as more of an aspirational goal. If we had to end up spending $2,000, say, I *think* we could swing it. For cabling and such, I expect to be able to pull from our existing stock.

If you go with powered speakers then you may need to get power to them, and keep in mind that they may be considered permanently installed so it may not be able to be anything considered temporary power, so what might that cost? Do the speakers automatically power themselves on and off or do you need to address turning them on and off? If you don't go with powered boxes then you need an amp and ideally some processing, so what is that associated cost? Then there is flying hardware and any substructure needed in order to attach to the structure and any associated cost. The point is simply that if you have to work within a budget then try to account for all the associated costs, there are too many already out there who spent everything on the gear and have it sitting in the boxes because they don't have the money to implement it.

To clarify one point, are you looking at two speakers for addressing coverage in mono or for trying to achieve stereo (and if so, do you really need stereo)? And a related reminder that since the intended use includes live vocal reinforcement, consider not just the coverage of the audience but also the coverage on stage as that will affect potential gain before feedback. Pictures or sketches of the venue might really help as I am not clear on the relation of the 'stage' to the audience area and the potential speaker locations and it almost sounds like the speakers might be behind the stage, which could be a significant factor.

Also related to the coverage, and especially to that on stage, the reality is that most compact speakers will have a pattern that varies significantly from the nominal pattern at different frequencies. It is physics at play in the size of the horn, the spacing of the drivers, etc. And making this more challenging is that the related information to be able to assess the actual pattern is often not provided for those products. Just using the Alto TS115A as an example since it was mentioned, its crossover is at 2,500Hz, so much of the critical portion speech range is apparently reproduced by the 15" driver rather than the horn and I seriously doubt that the nominal pattern applies to the woofer. That is fairly typical and it's not unusual to find compact two-way speakers for which the nominal pattern only applies over a limited range above 4kHz.

 

[rsmentele]

We rent out the K series of speakers and they are great, and quite loud. The K8's are nice cause they have something like a 120 deg. spread to them. The k10's are great as well, with a 105 deg. I think one of those will be really great for you. PM me if you have any specific questions. I would be more them happy to talk to you more about them

 

[museav]

We rent out the K series of speakers and they are great, and quite loud. The K8's are nice cause they have something like a 120 deg. spread to them. The k10's are great as well, with a 105 deg. I think one of those will be really great for you. PM me if you have any specific questions. I would be more them happy to talk to you more about them

There are situations where a 120 degree conical pattern may be very beneficial and others where it could be a definite disadvantage. The goal is usually getting the sound to go where you want it to go and to not go where you don't want it to go. When dealing with open microphones that typically means getting the sound to all of the listeners and reducing the sound to the microphones on stage. This becomes more critical in permanent installs as you cannot readily alter the speaker or stage locations if you encounter a problem. And that is my concern, considering gain before feedback as well as coverage of the audience.

The K series do have an automatic standby mode if they see no signal for a period of time and I believe that you can disable the power LED on the front, which can both be advantages in installs. FWIW, QSC says a nominal 105 degree conical pattern for the K8, 90 degree conical for the K10 and 75 degree conical for the K12.

 

[38octillionlumens]

There are situations where a 120 degree conical pattern may be very beneficial and others where it could be a definite disadvantage. The goal is usually getting the sound to go where you want it to go and to not go where you don't want it to go. When dealing with open microphones that typically means getting the sound to all of the listeners and reducing the sound to the microphones on stage. This becomes more critical in permanent installs as you cannot readily alter the speaker or stage locations if you encounter a problem. And that is my concern, considering gain before feedback as well as coverage of the audience.

The K series do have an automatic standby mode if they see no signal for a period of time and I believe that you can disable the power LED on the front, which can both be advantages in installs. FWIW, QSC says a nominal 105 degree conical pattern for the K8, 90 degree conical for the K10 and 75 degree conical for the K12.

In light of what everyone has said, how would something like the JBL PRX612M compare with, say, the K12? Having that 90 x 50 pattern (with the PRX) it seems might address some of the feedback concerns, allowing us to somewhat shoot over the actors' heads. Brad, you are correct in noting that performers might be downstage of the speakers. With the space being so shallow, and the performer-audience boundary being ill-defined, this will be tough to avoid. There's some amount of performer-audience interaction, too. We do lots of shows for kids. My (very crude and not to scale) attached image may give a clearer idea of the layout. The location of the screen is not changeable here, as we are rear-projecting from the next room. The grayed-out seating area consists of built-in steps, but kids can be expected to sometimes spill out onto the floor.



I think electrical infrastructure won't be a problem, as there's a building electrician on staff who can do this sort of thing at close to zero extra cost for us.

 

[38octillionlumens]

...and I should add that I do think stereo is important for some of the pre-recorded music.

 

[pmolsonmus]

Not sure on the smaller models, but the K12 has a great feature that you can mount an external control (I think via a phoenix plug) for volume. If you've got an electrician that should be an easy add-on and allow for easy set ups.

Phil

 

[museav]

Given the room shape and size, the use, etc., I would typically approach this type of application by looking at separate program music playback and speech systems. Perhaps full range stereo for program and ceiling speakers for speech. If you have a person operating the system and the mixer supports it you could even split the speech system into a left and right zone so that as the person speaking moves into the left half of the space you turn down those related speakers and turn up the other side. This would also allow you to process the music and speech differently so that you could try to increase intelligibiltiy and gain before feedback for the speech signals without that affecting the music and tweak the music quality without directly affecting inteliigibility or feedback. The issue is probably whether such a system could be addressed within your budget.

 

[38octillionlumens]

Thanks, everyone, for your help. You've given me quite a bit to think about, and some good directions to pursue.

 

[macwhiz]

A suggestion I have is if you are going with passive speakers, look at the Crown XTi amplifiers, I own a 1000, 2000 and 4000 and love them all, and the built in DSP and computer control really help.