Vintage Lighting Square cap Kliegl 1165 Leko

[ship]

So I bid on by mistake, and won for $9.99 a Kliegl Leko.
Mistake in the Kliegl, because it was missing both lens train and lamp cap. Vara-Light/Dimatronics/Hub Electric might have the parts, (Might... or perhaps in having seen them before, as with some other parts I can fabricate it if anyone has an example I can compare from other than with memory.) This worry, also because it had a spoked floor base in the photo and while I couldn’t tell scale in the E-Bay photo, I have two similar shaped ones with spoked bases from Major under Century #1560 8x10 cannons and I feared I had to make room for another 50# cannon of a fixture.


http://www.klieglbros.com/catalogs/40c36/cat40p45.jpg

I was ever so happy when I picked it up and it was about the size of a fat baby instead. The normal 18" spoked floor base was designed for use with stage screws to hold it down. This as opposed to a normal 40# weighed base of today, these screwed the base down to the deck as per normal scenery. This spoked base for a 6" Leko I got was called a “Table Top Mount” and is slightly countersunk for a say #10 flat head screw. Never seen a 6" Junior Klieglight type fixture of this type before, or a 9" spoked base before - normally they are weighted bases for that size that I have seen. Should fit in well between that above Century display and happy now to have it.

Very interesting ETC Leko like swivel lens train so the shutters focus properly on what you need them to. First time I have seen that before - the Century’s of similar style I have didn’t have that innovation, nor did later gear from Kliegl 1164 Leko’s that survived years later. After some research on the Kliegl Brother’s website, it’s definately a #1165B model, only seemingly is not the one presented either in the 1936 catalogue (link to,) or the 1950 catalogue. Has elements of both.

The 1936 catalogue has the aluminum slip plate casting that allows the shutters/lens train to rotate 360°, has the center part of this ring black in color, mine isn’t painted more like the 1950 version. Neither shows the 1/4-20 threaded tapped hole in one of the rotating mounts so as to rotate the lens train by way of some form of handle or knob. That’s a problem in re-producing that missing part. Was it some form of lever, or just a knob?

The shutter knobs are as similar to what’s in the 1936 photo and not the more like Altman 360 style shutter handles as in the 1950's catalogue. All slotted screws in use so far appairent on the fixture so far, though the first I have seen the use of some truss head type slotted screws also in use for attaching the lens train snout.

Lampholder retainer bracket as per this era of Leko is broken at about 1/3, but it’s using pound rivets. Yoke mount is using bolts instead of handles as per the norm I have seen before on the Century above Leko’s. (Proper Lekos - they even say Lekolight.)

Brass tacks on this very cute but chubby Leko in research. It’s missing it’s most important parts in dating it, and is clearly somewhere in between the two catalogues. That’s a problem in that while both have a step lens in use, between the catalogues, the lens train gel frame clip differs. Easy enough to cut a Altman lens train down to match either style - just gotta know which. Also, think I have a 6" step lens in stock, otherwise the above dealer possibly might.

Real question is in the missing lamp cap. Same lamp cap and possibly I can get or make one (though if anyone has one for the 6" or 8" version extra... $$$), more a question of Kliegl at some point upgrading to a completely different lamp during this time period.

Initially Kliegl was using a Fresnel like P-28s 500T-12 type of lamp similar to what Radial Lekos use but a bit different LCL for that lamp. In the 1950 catalogue on the other hand, they list a 500T-14 medium bi-post lamp on the other hand. That’s a G-22 base for it and really odd for any Leko to be using (never heard of other than a higher wattage studio type using that style of lamp domestically). 500T14/7 G.E. #21803 at 800 lamp rated hours, LCL of 4" this verses the 1936 catalogue listing a 500wT-12 Medium Pre-Focus P-28s lamp for it. I don’t track that discontinued 200hr lamp, but find it interesting this change to bi-pin as opposed to the rest of the industry doing medium pre-focus for the Leko's until the 60's with other say ANSI type DEB type T-12 lamps later that had the same lamp hours but kept the same medium pre-focus base. The LCL of 3.1/2" of the DEB overall isn’t much given seat heights of differing bases for mounting.


As important in Leko history - Radial Leko history... the 4" LCL T-12 medium pre-focus lamp had a lamp life of 200 hours for the spot version. The B-pin version had a lamp life of 800 hours. Following this, the normal radial Leko now somehow seemigly went back to medium prefocus 3.1/2" lamp LCL in use. Important given the above lamp change and return back in bulb type detals. Very important for Leko history as to what came when or changes between as "current science" and dating of fixtures. Won't help this fixture but questions raised as to which it is.

Thus also my conundrum about is this a 1936 or 1950 fixture in given I get the parts to it, which one it really is? No serial numbers I can find and possibly it could be either version in being a “in-between” catalogue model.

Last part, anyone have an extra rectangular cap Kliegl Leko lampholder cap? That’s gonna be the most difficult part to get. The rest I can punt with. I don’t have an example of it to copy the cap from either in making fabricating it easier either. Know how it works and about to get a pre-360 series Altman Leko that uses the same yoke mounted cap concept as based off the 1164 Kliegl system.. But round cap and this is rectangular.

Anyone have help here with spare parts, or parts to copy? More refining info on which type of lamp this will have used?

 

[derekleffew]

... After some research on the Kliegl Brother’s website, it’s definately a #1165B model, only seemingly is not the one presented either in the 1936 catalogue (link to,) or the 1950 catalogue. Has elements of both. ...

Could be as recent as 1957?

Kliegl Bros. Catalog#T-61, 1957.

...In the 1950 catalogue on the other hand, they list a 500T-14 medium bi-post lamp on the other hand. That’s a G-22 base for it and really odd for any Leko to be using (never heard of other than a higher wattage studio type using that style of lamp domestically). ...

More on Kliegl's use of the medium bi-post (as opposed to Century's use of medium prefocus) socket, in the article http://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/Co...lipsoidal+Reflector+Spotlight-Ancient+History . Matter of fact, I don't think I've ever seen a Kliegl ERS use an MPF socket, although I don't think I've used anything older than 1365, 1355, 1357.

 

[ship]

Fascinating above article linked to - the person from Major I chatted with assured me they invented the process - though it was a bit older in invention than him. There is a fixture in the photo I'll be looking for and thanks on the history.

Been working on my Kliegl #1165 fixture over the weekend. Thanks Drew for sending me a lens. Surplus of Altman lens trains, now I have a 6" step lens for it. Poor chubby Leko Junior KliegLight... missing both your lens train and lamp cap and don’t even know if you are a 1936 or 1950 version of it given parts from both on it.

Given the original 1936 version has a very rare and discontinued lamp (not noted in the article mentioning the lamp type but - the origional P-28s lamp - medium prefocus lamp has a different LCL to it and is totally not available these days. (Could soak it up in a TBA lamp focusing mechanism for the non-existing cap, but would rather be accurate.) Given this, I decided on doing it for a 1950 version with easier to get at least upgrade lamp for it. What version I choose also will determine the cutting of the gel frame for it - the two were different in cut.

Thought the lens train would be an easier thing to just do than the lamp cap. It is given a plethora of Altman 360Q lens trains in stock, but in dry fitting the lens that I would just have to cut away fa little from in dry fitting, I found out that the #1165 6" Leko uses a 6" dia. lens train, the Altman a 6.1/8" lens train. That makes it a bit harder in having to pop the spot welds on a different Altman lens train with failed spot welds, than slittling and re-sizing for welding than further grinding the Altman version to make it fit. A bit of support for the lens problems to solve, but the slit Altman lens once re-made to fit will work. First time I have ever run across a 6" lens train that wasn't universal... than again also the first time I ever tried to do so.

Making a blank for the lamp cap in casting out of wood was a total failure for the weekend. That’s a set back. Forgot in cutting the blank to do a 45 degree angle to it in cutting the wood blank thus now too small were I to make that angle. Think I can make it - though if the above Hub/Dimmaronics/Varilite/Major company has one in stock that would save a lot of time. They are an old fixture parts stocker and I do need to call them back on this fixture.

Monday I’ll get welded up the now cut lens train and assemble it with sufficient spacer to retain the lens. Next week I’ll work on in saving the “chubby baby” on a new lamp cap for it. It’s cute and will be a good addition to my collection, even if not in workable condition yet..

 

[ship]

Realizing at this point nobody has this fixture and or I'm the only one keeping it alive at this point. It is my "Chubby Baby" project though thus the update.

Got a scrap of clear cedar from work today and cut it to the size and shape I needed. Hours or work in making this mostly match up to the best photo I could find out of the Photometrics Handbook. That and physical restraints of fitting in the fixture and retained by what's left by the broken hook arm for the cap.

So given I can not replace the missing lamp cap to the fixture but have a fairly accurate reproduction of what it would be where should I go? Should I cast a new one in thinking I have it correct but by photos in this blank, think the top is fluted and vented I don't portray other than graining of the lumber and the top of the cap is not visable? Or perhaps not fluted but perhaps vented?

I have no idea of how the lamp - either of them was centered in mechanism for the fixture. Could be more Altman 360 style but than again could be something different in how the lamp was mounted.

So I can now fake and even at some point cast off it a lampholder assembly from it, but have a clear Cedar blank made so far. A bit of Bondo added and glue where I got too close or agressive in making it. Won't see such repairs.

Can fake this lamp cap to cast aluminum and or what it might have been, even add the fluting I think it might have had... or should I be more honest and stain than poly this wood lamp cap reproduction I made in being a faximility of what it was, especially given I won't always be giving the tour in explaining what the problem was? For all intensive purposes, this fixture is accurate now for how it should look - this as long as I choose in gel frame holder which version I will cut the Altman lens train to become.

Neither gel frame choice will matter as much as staining and finishing as wood or making it aluminum in choice overall I think. Which should I do?

For someone on a tour of the collection - this especially in me not making up my mind if I want to make it a 1936 or a 1950 version, given it has elements of both, would the discussion point better be stated and shown by a stained wood blank for the lamp cap, or for a aluminum similar texture and painted blank that looks like it should?

I can do the missing lens train and now for either version, given I took apart an Altman version in making it smaller and just have to get it welded up. I can further cut it for style/version in which to better portray. This will be accurate in concept in lesser detail. The lamp cap.. stain and finish as wood replacement and accurate, or representive aluminum cast cap in representing what it will have been like?

How should I go with the lamp cap for museum purposes?

 

[derekleffew]

Stop fabricating; keep looking. The fixture is still shown in the 1965 catalog

and, other than the rotating barrel, is not that historically significant. It's not very different from a 1365 fixture. You'll eventually find one, if you are patient. As a museum piece, I'd much rather see the real thing than a reproduction, wood or otherwise.

 

[ship]

totally different lamp cap shown. Still though, I'm looking and will eventually find or cast my own. For now, I hope I don't dissapoint you in making my lamp cap out of lumber for presentation purposes. Working on the broken retaining cap bracket at this point out of a stock plate of 1/2" x 6"x 8" aluminum plate. Not an easy thing to re-produce in other missing parts to fabricate from scratch for it. If I can at best simulate it, I'm happy in later making accurate what I have.

 

[ship]

Update on the fixture.

The lens Derek sent me by way of 6" ID lens train tube for the fixture don’t fit. While it is very much the type of lens and probably would fit on a later version on this fixture, it is too large for this one. Very unusual in this fixture seemingly needing a 5.7/8" or less step lens. Never run across this problem before in a 6" lens always being a 6" lens. Tried sanding down the Pirex lens over the weekend on a 12" disc to a table sander, but other than minor sanding... didn’t get far with much work.

I need to get this lens down to at least 5.7/8" or less in Dia. It’s an antique lens and rare, any good options? Jig for the grinder with diamond blade? Special sandpaper? How do I reduce the size of a Pirex lens?

 

[jonliles]

I need to get this lens down to at least 5.7/8" or less in Dia. It’s an antique lens and rare, any good options? Jig for the grinder with diamond blade? Special sandpaper? How do I reduce the size of a Pirex lens?

Ship,
Try a Glass shop or a Stain/Art Glass Shop. The better ones have will have wet grinders that can grind you lens diameter down to size. A good glass shop would be able to polish the edges smooth again.

 

[ship]

Ship,
Try a Glass shop or a Stain/Art Glass Shop. The better ones have will have wet grinders that can grind you lens diameter down to size. A good glass shop would be able to polish the edges smooth again.

Welder at work approved to help me on the project noted that zirconia was harder than glass, this peaked my interest in that perhaps the general home center type belt or in my case - way too high RPM and too rough disc wasn't sufficient. Got a wetproof Silicone Carbide sanding belt at 80 grit for the belt sander (as recommended by McMaster Carr) - this as opposed to the way too fast and not doing a good job disc sanding of the store bought like 40 grit paper which worked for it. Don't do even a good job for lumber, why would one think it would sand glass well?


6" lens got sanded down to a little less than 5.7/8" size easily and fast given the proper paper for doing so and switching to the belt sander. Silly of me in not looking into it further. Joke to my Wife in my 20/20 vision in showing her the lens I ground down... no need for more glasses, I can grind them for you. It was cool how easily and with little chipping the lens sanded down.

Welder that's working on making the 360Q lens train as pre-cut down in gel frame clips and size to fit the 6" ID of the fixture tube for the now lens train with smaller lens. His project in making lens fit to lens train and if needed I will sand it down further. (Very unusual fixture given a 6" size that it's much less than a 6" lens in use. Don't totally fit the 1936 version but strays a lot away from the 1950 version in both the most accurate for some elements of it.) This as with final reinforcement to the aluminum lamp cap I made that he is reinforcing. Team effort in making this somewhere between 1936 era and up to 1950 fixture a whole again. A lot of work in even grinding the lamp cap to fit - huge amount of work beyond the cedar wood cap shape I once made and thought sufficient.

Once done, I'll be medium pre-focusing it in base type. Got a four point suspension of the base already drilled in the cap as with cooling vents I think best. Think this is going to work great. Other than now aluminum plate bolted and welded, it's origional. Once the cap gets out of welding for more reinforcement, I'll be sand blastig it for a more accurate to cast portrail of what was done. Stuff I would do differently in inventing it but perfect fit, and bracket for it also in only 1/3 of it seen, perfect fit in making a new one.

More for me than just antique.. that it works back to factory specification or better... or where I don't know how it works as best I can in inventing it and TBA improvement back to better or how it was done. Soon this fixture into the antique inventory - getting really close now in hours upon hours worth of work in even recreating half of it from photos. Worth it in very unusual and good project.

This much less good addition with story to add to the museum. A lot of work into it but proper and works the best I can with much effort.

This fixture is far different than anything seen so far. Yes, fat baby' but cut also. Photos TBA and hopefully soon once the lens train is finished welding up smaller.

 

[derekleffew]

...Once done, I'll be medium pre-focusing it in base type. Got a four point suspension of the base already drilled in the cap as with cooling vents I think best. Think this is going to work great.

More for me than just antique.. that it works back to factory specification or better... or where I don't know it works as best I can and TBA improvement back to better.

As I said in post#2 above, a G22 Medium Bi-post socket (with 500W EFX or even better a 750T14 lamp) would be more historically accurate.
From Ellipsoidal Reflector Spotlight-Ancient History - ControlBooth :

GE offered two lamps to the market: the T-12 medium prefocus base adopted by Century Lighting in their Leko ERS, and a medium bi-post T-14 adopted by Kliegl. The T-12 was thought to be superior due to the smaller hole in the reflector, but it was plagued by problems with adhesive between the bulb and the base-- the glass bulb often separated from the base when re-lamping. The T-14 bi-post design avoided this problem.

Table 12, from a ~1980 GE lamp catalog, shows the original lamps for the 1165 fixture.

 

[ship]

As I said in post#2 above, a G22 Medium Bi-post socket (with 500W EFX or even better a 750T14 lamp) would be more historically accurate.
From Ellipsoidal Reflector Spotlight-Ancient History - ControlBooth :

Hmm.. Will look more into it - this what lamp/base (socket) is installed. At some point I'll do what functions and that I can get even if FLK for use if necessary. I'm going for accuracy and thanks for re-checking me on it and getting me to further research in being yet to mount a base to it. I'll go historical to what I can achieve but also in the end go with what I can field in making it functional by lamp type I can install. TBA now what I do on lamp and socket for it - this even if 1/2" thick side walls to the plate used it will take more work if needed in more grinding to fit. Extra work sure once needed and thanks for the re-focus. Gone this far type of thing.

This me now starting over in what lamps were used on this fixture and what types of fixture it could be, than what year and lamp types it could be using. For now, the fiture gel frame is 1950 style at least in cut. Easy enough to modify at least for the earlier verson.

Here I was just thinking that the lamp cap had some sort of clip in it's casting that I'm missing so it's cap don't fall out of the bracket as easily. Final details.

Starting over in detals... but all about the learning process and fun that also that helps me invent a lighting fixture. Thanks in an otherwise non-comment type of way of complicating the completion of this fixture. Fun fixture... but really now it's getting beyond immediate gratification in complete. Talking literally approaching say 40 hours of work on it at this point.

Will take the advice into consideration and do more research, but also given some lamp type cannot be done, in the end make it function. This until I can get the actual base cap for it and socket. thinking it early 36'ish era fixture, I won't forget that in replacing parts for accuracy.