Stacking amps

mstaylor

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Departed Member
This is going to be a really stupid question but I may have to do an install of equipment that is beyond my knowledge. My sound knowledge is basic and sparse. I can use an existing system and set up simple small systems. My problem is I have to swap out amps and add to the number of amps to power additional speakers. When I look at an amp rack I see all the parts but the wires are greek to me. How do you tie multible amps to a sound board? I have 5 amps running 10 speakers, a speaker per side of the amp. I am adding four more speakers and replacing all the amps. The existing are Mackie amps and I am going to QSC amps, not that it really matters. I am switching from a Mackie to an A&H 2400. The problem is when I look in the back of the anp rack all I see is a mess, which it isn't. Put me in the back of a dimmer rack, no problem.
Sorry for such a basic question but I am the make it work guy in my building, nevermind that I repeatedly tell them that I am not a sound guy.
I also am eliminating the delay gear because I have gone from two clusters to one central cluster. I am in a 6000 seat arena and the main/delay system simly wasn't working so we have gone to a new array of speakers.
 
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In a 6000 seat venue, I am really surprised the management isn't listening to your cries for expert help with the sound system. You have not supplied enough information for anyone to tell you exactly what you need to do, but I can point out some potential "gotchas." If any of this is stuff that is obvious to you, please don't take offense; I will try to explain from a very basic knowledge level in case you are very unfamiliar with PA systems.

Just beyond your mixer main outputs, you should have some sort of equalizer for operators to use. After that, you should have a crossover, which may be located at FoH or near the amplifiers. Its function is to take the full-range signal (say 20Hz - 20kHz) from the mixer/EQ, and divide it into several frequency bands for the different speakers you have, for example, 35Hz - 90Hz may be routed to your subwoofer amplifiers, and you may have L/C/R inputs and outputs for your main loudspeakers, which sound like they only use a single amplifier channel each. Assuming you find such a crossover in the PA system, you will need to identify which output should go to what group of amplifiers. If you do not find any crossover unit, you may have bigger problems (as there may be no protection from extremely low-frequency content, which can quickly damage speakers.)

Once you have determined which outputs go to which speakers, you need to figure out the amplifier situation. Splitting one signal into two or more amplifiers is very easy. Unlike DMX, you can simply use a "Y cable" without any fear of signal degradation. As long as you do not need to connect more than 10 or so amplifiers to a single source, don't make it hard, just buy "Y cables" or solder yourself up a patch panel or wiring harness. Here is a $10 Y cable: YFM&YMF the YFMM type is the correct gender for your use.

Now that you know how to split up the signals, you still have to figure out which speaker cables go to which speakers. As long as none of your speakers are bi-amplified (or, requiring separate amp channels for their HF section) you can use this easy method: Hook up one amplifier to your mixer, plug in an iPod or laptop, play some music, and then connect each speaker cable to that amp channel until you have found and labeled the cable for every speaker. Of course, if you are installing new speakers (and cables) you may find this is not necessary; but it is always a good idea to verify that the cable pullers have labeled everything correctly before you continue working.

Now you want to decide which amplifiers are used for which speakers. This is complicated and if you don't already know, you should post much more detail including what speakers and amps you have, and what area each speaker is intended to cover. I'll leave this subject alone unless you require more help.

Once you know that, simply hook up the speaker cables to the designated amplifiers. But you're not done yet.

Since you are changing amplifiers, you need to compare the Voltage Gain of the old amps to that of the new ones. Your old amps might have 32dB of gain, and your new ones might offer several choices, for example, 26dB and 32dB. If this is the case, use the same setting on your new amps as on the old ones. If not, you will need to adjust the gain of the new amplifiers appropriately. Otherwise, you may find the PA system is now much louder, or much quieter, than with the old amplifiers, given the same input level from the mixer. Note that this has no direct relationship to the maximum power rating of your amplifiers -- a 10000w amp can have the same amount of voltage gain as a 200w amp. The 10000w amp can simply receive a much stronger input signal before it reaches maximum power. However, the voltage gain of amplifiers varies from one series of amps to the next, and often from model to model. Check the spec sheet for your amps.

Finally, if you found a fancy digital signal processor acting as the system crossover, it may also have a built-in limiter, and perhaps many other features. This may be where you need the most help. It suffices to say that the limiter, if configured, is there to protect the speakers from damage, and if left alone AND you configure the same voltage gain on your new amplifiers as on your old ones, the PA system will have the same driver protection as it did before you changed it. If, however, you increase the amplifier gain, you need to reduce the limiter threshold setting by that same amount.

You may wish to go back to management and suggest they budget for someone to come in and assist you, at least with configuring the amps and crossover/DSP once they are all hooked up, to protect the PA system from damage. Otherwise, a simple accident like a dropped microphone, or a careless user who turns something up too loud, could easily damage some or all the drivers in your PA system. That would be a costly repair.

I hope this is helpful.

EDIT: One large "gotcha" I have not mentioned is since you are dealing with new cable plant, you will need to check the polarity of the installed cables to make sure it is correct. This is important, as if the ends of one or more cables are wired in reverse (or hooked up to the amplifiers in reverse) it will have a dramatic affect on the sound.
 
OK, First i know the polarity is correct, I did it myself. There is a limiter in the system but that is were my eyes start glazing over. I will definitely get a company to come in and balance the system and make sure I put everything in the right places. The problem is there is one company that has been chosen to do the install and tech out the system but because of timing problems on our side we lost our window and now they are slammed. My options are to get somebody else or do the install myself and let them tech it. I want them to get the work if possible. I seem to always come up with a solution one way or the other so I keep having to do it. It makes betterin my job to have to stretch my knowledge.
As far as the crossover, presently we don't have subs in the system. I will be adding BagEnd subs on the floor for certain situations but for normal speaking, background music and other similar applications they won't be there. Now one of the big downfalls of the existing system is lack of bottom end. the addition of subs will help. If I'm playing music as background it will be fine. When I'm competing with monster trucks the Bag Ends will be a bonus.
 
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By mentioning main/delay speakers, it is implied that there is some time-alignment going on which in today's systems means that there is one or more system processors being used. Additionally, main/delay configurations require some critical measurement and deployment techniques to optimize coverage and response.

You don't say how, who, and what drove the decision to add more amps and speakers. The person or company who speced this addition would have also included the additional processing and routing requirements for the addition.

Is this a center cluster, Left/center/right, or some other configuration? This will determine how signals are routed from the console and what matrix is needed for system control.

Bringing in a tech after the fact to attempt to tune an inproperly speced and deployed rig is not the best way to spend money.

So, if you can describe what gear you have now, what gear you are bringing in, and the space it is intended to work in, many here can help.

This is going to be a really stupid question but I may have to do an install of equipment that is beyond my knowledge. My sound knowledge is basic and sparse. I can use an existing system and set up simple small systems. My problem is I have to swap out amps and add to the number of amps to power additional speakers. When I look at an amp rack I see all the parts but the wires are greek to me. How do you tie multible amps to a sound board? I have 5 amps running 10 speakers, a speaker per side of the amp. I am adding four more speakers and replacing all the amps. The existing are Mackie amps and I am going to QSC amps, not that it really matters. I am switching from a Mackie to an A&H 2400. The problem is when I look in the back of the anp rack all I see is a mess, which it isn't. Put me in the back of a dimmer rack, no problem.
Sorry for such a basic question but I am the make it work guy in my building, nevermind that I repeatedly tell them that I am not a sound guy.
I also am eliminating the delay gear because I have gone from two clusters to one central cluster. I am in a 6000 seat arena and the main/delay system simly wasn't working so we have gone to a new array of speakers.
 
By mentioning main/delay speakers, it is implied that there is some time-alignment going on which in today's systems means that there is one or more system processors being used. Additionally, main/delay configurations require some critical measurement and deployment techniques to optimize coverage and response.

You don't say how, who, and what drove the decision to add more amps and speakers. The person or company who speced this addition would have also included the additional processing and routing requirements for the addition.

Is this a center cluster, Left/center/right, or some other configuration? This will determine how signals are routed from the console and what matrix is needed for system control.

Bringing in a tech after the fact to attempt to tune an inproperly speced and deployed rig is not the best way to spend money.

So, if you can describe what gear you have now, what gear you are bringing in, and the space it is intended to work in, many here can help.

The old system was two two clusters which required a delay. We have moved it to a single center round cluster. I am using 13 EAW speakers, one of which is straight down for center fill. The board is a A&H 2400 and the amps are QSC. I have installed the speakers per the company and the sound company was to install all the amps and board. The problem is we had delays in the install and now we lost a window in their time so I am having to do more thsn I intended. We have a WWE house event coming in and I need everything in place so they can tune it. It is a matter of either I di it or get somebody else for the install. Since they did all the legwork I didn't want to cut them out of the equation. They already did the patch bay install in my data cabinet so I wanted them to finish.
Bill, thanks for the passthrough info, that's what I needed.
 
It may not be what you want to hear but there is no way to really answer without knowing the system design and configuration. In most systems of that size and complexity there will be some routing and processing between the console outputs and the amplifier inputs. How complex that is can vary greatly and it may be programmed specifically for the application. For example, you may have different processing for different speakers due to the speaker models and/or application varying. I've also done arena systems where the mixing console provided more than one output to feed specific areas, such as one output for the main audience seating, one for the balcony and one for the main floor, that way you can adjust the content and levels from the console based on the specific application.

So as you can see, unless you know the system concept and intent, it's just about impossible to know what connects to what. That being said, if the firm that was going to do the install has done proper installation drawings then those should be pretty clear in terms of what wires go where. Of course that also gets into what design documentation you have and how you plan to deal with things like wire/cable numbers, marking up the documents for As-Builts and all the other things that a qualified Contractor might normally due as part of their installation effort.

Another aspect to consider is that you mentioned adding and/or moving speakers in a cluster. If the install involves flying speakers then you really should have a professional handle that aspect of it.

To be totally blunt, most times I have been involved in finishing up an Owner install it ended up being a matter of doing much if not all of the work over. The sticking point is that the firm that touches the system last typically effectively inherits all blame for anything wrong, so they often can't accept responsibility for work they did not perform. If the Contractor's role would be limited to what is considered "commissioning" then that may avoid issues in term of responsibility for some of the physical install but it also limits what they may be willing or able to do in terms of system adjustments. As an example, if there is an issue with the aiming of a speaker they may identify that but not fix it as doing anything to the speaker could make them be seen as being responsible for all of the speaker aiming.

But the overall issue is that without knowing where you and the Contractor were in the design and installation process and without knowing the actual system design, it's a bit difficult to give any specific input.
 
Points well made Brad. As far as the hanging of the cluster I am a rigger so that isn't an issue. I totally understand what you say about not following the design plans. I could wait for the company but to be honest, it's time I know more about my system so I figure I can at least put some of the parts in place. The guy I have been working with is very good but not great at explaining how it works. I promise not to blow anything up. :)
 

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