Stage rigging collapses at Indiana State Fair

[JD]

With that information, is 30 minutes enough time to get the truss spot ops down, the roof lowered, and crew/performers/audience evacuated?

Should they have cancelled earlier than that?

Is that perhaps the right time to cancel (@ 8:23p when the warning went out), but at that point is the only appropriate action to abandon ship without trying to save the structure?

I don't think there would have been enough time to do everything, but fair warning should have first gone to the truss spot ops so they could get down. You can always delay the start of the show a few minutes to get them back in position if all is clear. Always a bit of a fog on any story, but my understanding so far is that one was killed and several badly injured. I wonder how many on the crew really got the heads up on what was coming, and how many were killed or injured because they were trying to protect the stage and equipment thinking it was a much smaller storm then it was.

 

[len]

It said evacuations had been started before the collapse, but it makes you wonder if they delayed it longer than necessary. Unless this storm cell developed a short radius from the fairgrounds and didn't give them time to evacuate, they likely had a fair amount of warning time.

Actually, it said they made announcements of what to do IF an evacuation was necessary, but no one said to clear.

And from the youtube video, does it look to anyone else like the downstage right supports were leaning for several seconds before the rest gave way?

Regardless, another terrible failure.

 

[JohnHuntington]

The Weather Channel is on scene now, and, amazingly, it looks like the SL PA tower is still standing...

 

[mstaylor]

My thought was even if you were going to try to pull the show off, why send spot ops up in the roof? You just cut them and deal with not having that effect. I had a LD want me to climb a roof to refocus during lightning, I told her to pack sand. I would go up if it stopped but no way was I going in the air on a huge lightning rod. She was much put out over but as the boss I get to make that call.

 

[MNicolai]

...but as the boss I get to make that call.

The fact that you were the boss is irrelevant IMO. The reason you get to make that call is more importantly because you are the potential lightning rod.

There are a lot of people who end up in bad situations because they let their boss or someone else they're working with do their thinking for them. One of the most dangerous character flaws a person can have is when they lack the confidence to tell someone they're not comfortable performing work they've been told to do -- generally for fear of being a disappointment, of being "wrong", or for fear of being fired.

Those fears could be completely irrational and the person in charge might completely understand someone is not comfortable doing the work, but that does not change the fact that in a lot of people, that fear exists and exerts a very real pressure on people to work beyond their comfort zones.

On the other hand, those fears could be very rational and someone could get fired or reprimanded for refusing to do work.

 

[mstaylor]

I agree it happens all the time. The way I have always worked is if there is wind, rain or other factors that makes something more dangerous, I ask the guys if they are comfortable doing it. I deem it unsafe where I wouldn't do it, I don't my guys to do it. If it is borderline and I am OK with it, I give them the option. The last thing you do is put a guy in the air doing something that he thinks is beyond his ability. Everybody's line is different so it needs to be defined.

 

[FMEng]

It looks like I'm going to be on the Weatherbrains podcast tomorrow night, asking questions of the meteorologists on the show about what we, as crew members, should be looking out for in severe weather.

My current question list includes what should we, as non-meteorologists, look for on radar? (gust fronts, bow echoes, etc) What about cloud conditions, sudden temperature shifts, etc?

Any other questions I should ask?

Thanks!

John

Ask about NWS SAME radios. You aren't a meteorologist so leave the weather warnings to the pros who have the responsibility to do so. If I were the producer, your opinion on what you see on your iPhone wouldn't mean squat, nor should it.

Besides, nobody crewing a show is going to have the time to look at weather radar every few minutes. That's where the SAME radio comes in. No one has to pay close attention to it unless its siren goes off.

There is also a big liability issue here. People can get hurt during an evacuation and, as we've seen, they can get hurt from not evacuating when they should. You cannot take that upon yourself. I could see a venue putting a statement in the contract that when the NWS issues a warning for that place and time, the show stops immediately. That would keep the decision out of the hands of people that might tend to put money ahead of safety.

 

[JohnHuntington]

Ask about NWS SAME radios. You aren't a meteorologist so leave the weather warnings to the pros who have the responsibility to do so. If I were the producer, your opinion on what you see on your iPhone wouldn't mean squat, nor should it. Besides, nobody crewing a show is going to have the time to look at weather radar every few minutes.

I already know about SAME radios; I have a portable one I take on shows. But many people don't even understand the difference between a watch and a warning, so a SAME Radio would be worthless to them. I know that people got annoyed because mine used to go off all the time. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about helping to clear up.

I run a high res radar program (GRLevel2) on the same laptop while I'm running SMAART and Galileo processing control software. It shows polygon-based NWS warnings within seconds of them being issued. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a line of storms coming toward us and a red box showing that the storm is severe warned and the projected path is heading for the event site. I'd rather know even before the producer calls the event so I can be ready.

But in any case, I'm running it for me and my crew, not the producer. The producer has to make their own decision, and assume any liability for crowd evacuation. But an informed crew member might help guide the producer to a better decision. And, we often are working (load in/out) when they may not even be around, or a PA is left to babysit.

John

 

[JohnHuntington]

I know that people got annoyed because mine used to go off all the time.

Oh, one other issue with SAME radios--the alerts are county based. Here in NYC, that's not a big deal since we have several counties within a few miles. But let's say, for example, you have a tornado in Springfield, MA (which happened earlier this year). Springfield is in Hampden county. But let's say you are doing an event in Holyoke, MA a few miles north, but has the same SAME code--the weather radio alerts again and again but only rain falls. Next time, they ignore the warning.

The NWS issues polygon-based warnings that are much more informative. You can get them on the NWS web sites or in programs like GRLevel, Weathertap, etc.

John

 

[mstaylor]

I was looking at the Local 30 site and there are pictures of the same stage from 2006. The guys are X guys on the towers. I don't if that affects the ability to bring the roof down, I would assume it has to but I am not sure.

 

[FMEng]

Oh, one other issue with SAME radios--the alerts are county based. Here in NYC, that's not a big deal since we have several counties within a few miles. But let's say, for example, you have a tornado in Springfield, MA (which happened earlier this year). Springfield is in Hampden county. But let's say you are doing an event in Holyoke, MA a few miles north, but has the same SAME code--the weather radio alerts again and again but only rain falls. Next time, they ignore the warning.

The NWS issues polygon-based warnings that are much more informative. You can get them on the NWS web sites or in programs like GRLevel, Weathertap, etc.

John

The SAME standard allows for counties to be divided into 9 sections. However, the NWS generally doesn't use it because it just isn't practical to be that precise. We need to recongnize that reliance on any forecast will often lead to situations where the anticipated severe weather does not materialize. A lay person attempting to drill down the data for more precision will lead to failures to take action in advance of severe weather that does materialize.

Again, leave this to the professionals. If an event warrants more precision than you can get from public warnings, then the even needs to contract with one of the private weather forecasting companies.

 

[derekleffew]

Some years ago, when I worked outdoor attractions involving flame effects, pyrotechnics, and water effects (Mr. Huntington may well remember this), it was my job to print the "official" forecast from the NWS at the start of each shift. We also had multiple installed anemometers, and in one case, a full hobbyist local weather station (no radar).

But the best predictor was common sense. We'd look to see how much the palm trees were moving. These were free shows, if one were canceled there'd be the possibility of another in 60-90 minutes, so not quite the same responsibility, but I like to think we always erred on the side of caution. We canceled approximately 15% of the shows due to weather. I'm not sure if SAME radios were available then (we did have a "weather radio") or smartphones would have had any effect on our procedures.

 

[JohnHuntington]

A storm chaser in the area has some video of gustnados on the front, not too far from the venue:
[video]http://youtu.be/JMwgG7WG4S8[/video]

 

[JohnHuntington]

Some years ago, when I worked outdoor attractions involving flame effects, pyrotechnics, and water effects (Mr. Huntington may well remember this), it was my job to print the "official" forecast from the NWS at the start of each shift. We also had multiple installed anemometers, and in one case, a full hobbyist local weather station (no radar).

But the best predictor was common sense. We'd look to see how much the palm trees were moving. These were free shows, if one were canceled there'd be the possibility of another in 60-90 minutes, so not quite the same responsibility, but I like to think we always erred on the side of caution. We canceled approximately 15% of the shows due to weather. I'm not sure if SAME radios were available then (we did have a "weather radio") or smartphones would have had any effect on our procedures.

I certainly remember that attraction!

And I apparently disagree with Mr. FMEng--I think a well informed crew is always a good thing. The lack of information and/or knowledge seems far more dangerous to me.

John

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Just thought I'd post the link to the lengthy post on Jim on Light.
Indiana State Fair Stage Collapse, Five Dead. Now What? | Jim On Light

 

[MistressRach]

No new info here, but I thought this was an interesting write up from a primarily meteorological standpoint.
Indiana stage collapse: was it preventable? - Capital Weather Gang - The Washington Post

 

[Pie4Weebl]

No new info here, but I thought this was an interesting write up from a primarily meteorological standpoint.
Indiana stage collapse: was it preventable? - Capital Weather Gang - The Washington Post

I'm frustrated by people who are over reacting and posting mindless crap:

meteorologist and blogger Jim La Due concludes the stage was “a ‘house of cards’, in other words, a flimsy metal scaffolding frame supporting a huge area of fabric facing the wind”.

Yeah, a weather man blogging about what he thinks of out door stages, what a valid source!

 

[Footer]

I'm frustrated by people who are over reacting and posting mindless crap:


Yeah, a weather man blogging about what he thinks of out door stages, what a valid source!

At least the media is picking it up and is now really starting to look at it as an actual incident instead of a "fluke".

 

[shiben]

I'm frustrated by people who are over reacting and posting mindless crap:


Yeah, a weather man blogging about what he thinks of out door stages, what a valid source!

Well, over on LN a lot of people are basically saying that an outdoor stage is inherently dangerous, and need special handling that almost no one uses when they get set up. Lots of talk about installed anchor points, engineering inspections, go/no-go authority, etc.

 

[MistressRach]

I'm frustrated by people who are over reacting and posting mindless crap:


Yeah, a weather man blogging about what he thinks of out door stages, what a valid source!

True, he was speaking outside of his area of expertise, but the article does go on to state that if changes need to be made it's to risk communication procedures and not to the stages. The overall tone was not blaming the stage or rigging, but failures in communication and how to prevent them in the future.