Stage rigging collapses at Indiana State Fair
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Yes, it's part of the training, and it's in the manual for the roof. One set of questions will be what the maximum recommended weather conditions were, did anyone know about the pending weather, when did they know about them, and if they did, why didn't they act?
Another big legal issue will be whether the stage had more weight on it than was recommended, and again, did anyone know, and what did they do to make sure it wasn't overloaded.
I'm not saying any of that was the case, but they're certainly questions to be asked. I met the guys and Mid-America a few years ago, and they seemed really competent to me. Anyone who knows the Thomas name knows they build quality products.
But one thing I have learned from watching those disaster shows on the history channel is that massive failures typically don't come from one error/failure. There are often a bunch of seemingly unrelated errors/failures that compound into a massive problem.
It's a tragedy and we should all stop and reflect on the risks we take in this business. Some info on one of the dead: Health center mourns staffer killed in Indiana State Fair stage accident - Chicago Tribune
Len,
I have to agree with you with regard to small errors becoming one massive failure. The forces being placed on that structure were far pass anything that was rated for. The roof fabric gave way and at that point people should have been egressing pronto. I only wonder what damage was done to the structure from the forces on the roof and how it compromised the rest os the trussing. Also, if you look at the pics and videos, the scrim was turned into a giant sail and tugging at numerous points, granted it is a permeable fabric, but it is not 100 percent, there is some resistance, especially at 70 mph or more wind gusts, that should have been cut loose or dropped. The stage left line array was turning and blowing in the wind, additional forces on a bad situation.
I have been working in the industry for 30+ years and every outdoor gig brings potential hazards that are not present at indoor venues. John, I also have my laptop up and running with accuweather and a local weather station wherever I'm at outdoors, it has saved my gear and perhaps lives with advanced warning. Sprint 4G card gives me internet everywhere.
As stated before, the producers of these shows are putting dollars before safety, make the artist happy and bring in he big bucks. Those spot ops should NEVER have been given the green light to go up there, just with lightning in the area, never mind the wind.
Yes, this appears to have been a perfect storm that brewed with a combination of failures and unfortunate decisions. Only time will tell with a thorough investigation, in the meantime, lets all pray for those lost and their families and hope for a speedy recovery for those injured.
I have to agree with you with regard to small errors becoming one massive failure. The forces being placed on that structure were far pass anything that was rated for. The roof fabric gave way and at that point people should have been egressing pronto. I only wonder what damage was done to the structure from the forces on the roof and how it compromised the rest os the trussing. Also, if you look at the pics and videos, the scrim was turned into a giant sail and tugging at numerous points, granted it is a permeable fabric, but it is not 100 percent, there is some resistance, especially at 70 mph or more wind gusts, that should have been cut loose or dropped. The stage left line array was turning and blowing in the wind, additional forces on a bad situation.
I have been working in the industry for 30+ years and every outdoor gig brings potential hazards that are not present at indoor venues. John, I also have my laptop up and running with accuweather and a local weather station wherever I'm at outdoors, it has saved my gear and perhaps lives with advanced warning. Sprint 4G card gives me internet everywhere.
As stated before, the producers of these shows are putting dollars before safety, make the artist happy and bring in he big bucks. Those spot ops should NEVER have been given the green light to go up there, just with lightning in the area, never mind the wind.
Yes, this appears to have been a perfect storm that brewed with a combination of failures and unfortunate decisions. Only time will tell with a thorough investigation, in the meantime, lets all pray for those lost and their families and hope for a speedy recovery for those injured.
Esoteric
Well-Known Member
What's wrong with this picture?
Wow, did those to SL towers completely shear their bolts?
All of the visible Stage Left towers look intact to me.
Should not even comment on that one. First, we realy don't know much right now. Second, that is for the courts to decide. Because this was on state grounds and partially/mostly funded with state money there are going to be some weird things that are going to happen liability wise.
SR tower, and yes, it appears thats what happened. Breaking grade 8 truss bolts is no small feat.
It's impossible to tell from the photo, but I suspect the end plates pulled out. The bolts are stronger than the aluminum alloy ± 1/4" thick plates and their welds.
Ground Support Tower- James Thomas Engineering
Here's what was in today's NY Times.
"Even as the metal rigging high above a packed concert here began to shudder, Indiana State Fair officials were walking toward the stage, preparing, they said, to order the crowd to evacuate to avoid an arriving storm.
“We were en route,” Cynthia Hoye, the fair’s executive director, recalled on Monday, after a somber memorial service to remember the five people who died and dozens of others who were hurt on Saturday night when the overhead rigging collapsed during the state fair show.
“All of the sudden the wind picked up,” said Ms. Hoye, who never made it to the stage before what she and others here described as a devastating, isolated wind gust of more than 60 miles per hour.
As several state agencies, including the offices of the attorney general and the fire marshal and the Indiana Occupational Safety and Health Administration, tried to determine the cause of the accident and whether structural problems on the stage had played a role, some here, including survivors of the collapse, questioned why fair officials had not ordered the crowd of 12,000 to leave.
“I do have a concern that anyone sitting in front of a weather radar would have known that there was no way this was going to pass us by,” said Robert Klinestiver, a doctor who had been waiting in the front row with his 12-year-old daughter for the country duo Sugarland to take the stage after 8:30 p.m.
The skies had already grown eerily dark, but when the air grew blurry with swirling dirt, a large blue tarp began ripping on the giant rigging, and a strange sound of crumpling metal began emerging, Dr. Klinestiver grabbed his daughter and ran. Part of the structure hit the ground two feet from them, he said. The legs of someone just behind them were trapped beneath the fallen rigging, and, as people shrieked and cried and searched for relatives, Dr. Klinestiver and others began desperately trying to free scores of people.
State officials said their investigation could take weeks, but officials at the fair, which has been a tradition here for more than 150 years and draws 50,000 visitors on an average day, defended their handling of the storm threat. In a building not far from the stage, they said that all evening a contingent of officials — including a meteorologist — had been monitoring the weather, which had, since before 6 p.m., included a severe thunderstorm watch from the National Weather Service. Over the next few hours, the fair staff contacted the Weather Service at least four times, a report issued by the Indiana State Police said.
Minutes before the accident, as the crowd waited for Sugarland to take the stage after a warm-up act, an announcement was made warning that a storm was approaching that might delay the show and that shelter was available in three nearby facilities.
Some people left. But the announcement was not an order to evacuate. So, with no rain falling, others stayed put, particularly Sugarland’s most devoted fans, those closest to the front of the stage in an area called the Sugarpit — the site of some of the worst damage soon afterward.
Andy Klotz, a spokesman for the fair, described the sequence of events this way: At 8:39 p.m., the Weather Service upgraded the storm threat in Marion County, where Indianapolis is, to a severe thunderstorm warning from a watch; at 8:45 p.m., a local radio host who was making announcements on stage told the audience that an arriving storm might delay the show and named three shelters; and, at 8:49 p.m., as Ms. Hoye and a State Police official were approaching the stage to call for a formal evacuation for a storm that they believed was at least 25 minutes away, the rigging collapsed.
“Could we have stopped the show? Yes,” Mr. Klotz said. “But you don’t want to overreact. And you don’t want to underreact.”
The fair, which runs until Sunday, reopened on Monday after being closed for a day after the accident. The mood here — usually one of summer cheer and carefree eating — was subdued. Some events were canceled; others meant to take place on the large stage were moved. People stood along yellow police tape staring at the cordoned-off stage, which remained as it had landed on Saturday night, a frightening crush of metal.
On a different, smaller stage on the other side of the fair, the day began with a somber memorial. A bouquet of flowers was carried on stage for each of the five who were killed, which included a teacher, a programming manager, a mother, a father and a stagehand.
“We come today with hearts that are broken but also hearts that are full,” Gov. Mitch Daniels told the silent crowd as helicopters circled overhead.
In so much horror, Mr. Daniels said, many in the crowd had instantly and instinctively turned back to try to save others. “There was a hero every 10 feet on Saturday night.”
David Wood, who had been among those near the front of the concert stage and had escaped the falling rigging, came back to the fair on Monday and stood, scanning the teary crowd.
On Saturday, Mr. Wood had helped a young girl — maybe 2 or 4 years old — whose arm had a severe gash, he said. In the dark chaos of that night, he had used clothing for a tourniquet, and then passed the girl, whose mother was covered in blood, along to emergency workers.
“I’m just hoping she came out O.K.,” said Mr. Wood, who did not spot the girl or her family in the crowd. “I was hoping I could get an answer here.”
"Even as the metal rigging high above a packed concert here began to shudder, Indiana State Fair officials were walking toward the stage, preparing, they said, to order the crowd to evacuate to avoid an arriving storm.
“We were en route,” Cynthia Hoye, the fair’s executive director, recalled on Monday, after a somber memorial service to remember the five people who died and dozens of others who were hurt on Saturday night when the overhead rigging collapsed during the state fair show.
“All of the sudden the wind picked up,” said Ms. Hoye, who never made it to the stage before what she and others here described as a devastating, isolated wind gust of more than 60 miles per hour.
As several state agencies, including the offices of the attorney general and the fire marshal and the Indiana Occupational Safety and Health Administration, tried to determine the cause of the accident and whether structural problems on the stage had played a role, some here, including survivors of the collapse, questioned why fair officials had not ordered the crowd of 12,000 to leave.
“I do have a concern that anyone sitting in front of a weather radar would have known that there was no way this was going to pass us by,” said Robert Klinestiver, a doctor who had been waiting in the front row with his 12-year-old daughter for the country duo Sugarland to take the stage after 8:30 p.m.
The skies had already grown eerily dark, but when the air grew blurry with swirling dirt, a large blue tarp began ripping on the giant rigging, and a strange sound of crumpling metal began emerging, Dr. Klinestiver grabbed his daughter and ran. Part of the structure hit the ground two feet from them, he said. The legs of someone just behind them were trapped beneath the fallen rigging, and, as people shrieked and cried and searched for relatives, Dr. Klinestiver and others began desperately trying to free scores of people.
State officials said their investigation could take weeks, but officials at the fair, which has been a tradition here for more than 150 years and draws 50,000 visitors on an average day, defended their handling of the storm threat. In a building not far from the stage, they said that all evening a contingent of officials — including a meteorologist — had been monitoring the weather, which had, since before 6 p.m., included a severe thunderstorm watch from the National Weather Service. Over the next few hours, the fair staff contacted the Weather Service at least four times, a report issued by the Indiana State Police said.
Minutes before the accident, as the crowd waited for Sugarland to take the stage after a warm-up act, an announcement was made warning that a storm was approaching that might delay the show and that shelter was available in three nearby facilities.
Some people left. But the announcement was not an order to evacuate. So, with no rain falling, others stayed put, particularly Sugarland’s most devoted fans, those closest to the front of the stage in an area called the Sugarpit — the site of some of the worst damage soon afterward.
Andy Klotz, a spokesman for the fair, described the sequence of events this way: At 8:39 p.m., the Weather Service upgraded the storm threat in Marion County, where Indianapolis is, to a severe thunderstorm warning from a watch; at 8:45 p.m., a local radio host who was making announcements on stage told the audience that an arriving storm might delay the show and named three shelters; and, at 8:49 p.m., as Ms. Hoye and a State Police official were approaching the stage to call for a formal evacuation for a storm that they believed was at least 25 minutes away, the rigging collapsed.
“Could we have stopped the show? Yes,” Mr. Klotz said. “But you don’t want to overreact. And you don’t want to underreact.”
The fair, which runs until Sunday, reopened on Monday after being closed for a day after the accident. The mood here — usually one of summer cheer and carefree eating — was subdued. Some events were canceled; others meant to take place on the large stage were moved. People stood along yellow police tape staring at the cordoned-off stage, which remained as it had landed on Saturday night, a frightening crush of metal.
On a different, smaller stage on the other side of the fair, the day began with a somber memorial. A bouquet of flowers was carried on stage for each of the five who were killed, which included a teacher, a programming manager, a mother, a father and a stagehand.
“We come today with hearts that are broken but also hearts that are full,” Gov. Mitch Daniels told the silent crowd as helicopters circled overhead.
In so much horror, Mr. Daniels said, many in the crowd had instantly and instinctively turned back to try to save others. “There was a hero every 10 feet on Saturday night.”
David Wood, who had been among those near the front of the concert stage and had escaped the falling rigging, came back to the fair on Monday and stood, scanning the teary crowd.
On Saturday, Mr. Wood had helped a young girl — maybe 2 or 4 years old — whose arm had a severe gash, he said. In the dark chaos of that night, he had used clothing for a tourniquet, and then passed the girl, whose mother was covered in blood, along to emergency workers.
“I’m just hoping she came out O.K.,” said Mr. Wood, who did not spot the girl or her family in the crowd. “I was hoping I could get an answer here.”
willbb123
Active Member
The Weather Channel just came out with a statement stating the gust was not a "fluke event."
Indianapolis Tragedy Not a Fluke - weather.com
Indianapolis Tragedy Not a Fluke - weather.com
Rephrase: Do you believe a crime has been committed, and if so, what would you call it?
I think that is a significant question, because if we as an industry are going to really address these problems, be they in structural integrity of outdoor stages, in the line of communication for event staff, or in emergency preparedness, there needs to be a name that we can call this flavor of irresponsibility. That could be negligent homicide, reckless unpreparedness, or something else that carries more weight than "Oopsies!"
Someone attached to this event should have known the structural limitations of the staging, even if that's generally "wind/lightning = bad", and then the meteorologist knows exactly which red flags to watch out for.
There then should be another person who's responsibility is to have potential disaster plans in place who does not become fazed by the "The Show Must Go On" mentality surrounding them if a trigger threshold is reached to initiate an emergency plan.
The moment you put thousands of people in the same place like that, “I didn't know it was my job to worry about those sorts of things” shouldn't be a get-out-of-jail-free card.
I think that is a significant question, because if we as an industry are going to really address these problems, be they in structural integrity of outdoor stages, in the line of communication for event staff, or in emergency preparedness, there needs to be a name that we can call this flavor of irresponsibility. That could be negligent homicide, reckless unpreparedness, or something else that carries more weight than "Oopsies!"
Someone attached to this event should have known the structural limitations of the staging, even if that's generally "wind/lightning = bad", and then the meteorologist knows exactly which red flags to watch out for.
There then should be another person who's responsibility is to have potential disaster plans in place who does not become fazed by the "The Show Must Go On" mentality surrounding them if a trigger threshold is reached to initiate an emergency plan.
The moment you put thousands of people in the same place like that, “I didn't know it was my job to worry about those sorts of things” shouldn't be a get-out-of-jail-free card.
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The article linked to said that when they knew a storm was coming, and that there would be gusts that powerful, you can't just keep going and then later say, it was an un-predictable "fluke". I personally believe that action should have been taken sooner, and I realize they were almost to the stage when it happened, but if you have a meteorologist that could say "theres a thunderstorm coming, shouldn't someone be going to remove the giant lightning rod, as soon as they knew something was going wrong?
Someone had mentioned something earlier (DuckJordan I believe, about some kind of system where the roof couldn't have pulled everything down, and I agree that there should be some kind of system in place. What if it was some kind of kabuki drop system, just flipped "upside down" so when the wind was too strong, they could A) push a button, and have the roof no longer attached to the structure, reducing the "sail", or B) have the roof be attached with rip-cords so that when the wind did get too strong, it would simply detach itself. I don't know if that would work, and would probably end up being more complicated (maybe) but would it be worth it?
ps, I like how in all of videos the first night after it fell, everyone was saying scaffolding!
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Assuming a crime has been committed it would be either criminal negligence causing death (felony) or involuntary manslaughter (misdemeanor). I am neither a lawyer nor do I play one on prime time TV.
It remains to be determined who would be culpable between the organizers, AHJ, engineers, etc. A lot of things went wrong to get to the point where people died so there is plenty of blame to pass around.
I think you're on to something here. It seems like there were numerous people who had the knowledge and authority at multiple points along the way to step in and pull the plug on this thing, so trying to place full responsibility on a single person will be difficult. The reality is there's probably at least half-dozen people who could have prevented this disaster and failed to do so.
They were "enroute" to cancel the performance?!?! Anyone heard of Motorola ? I'm not an engineer but I do think Radio waves travel faster than walking speed. I've stayed out of this as I don't do that much outside production work anymore, but ...... Why were the Spot Ops in posistion in the first place? Who in thier right mind would sit in a truss spot with a lightning/thunderstorm approaching? The House stewar should have called them down at the first sgin of lighting.
Second, someone mentioned a fact that I think we are over looking. paraphrasing here " The public wants the same show they'd see in an arena..." Really ? Do they ? Or have we, as an industry, sold ourselves as being able to bring, " The Arena Experience Outdoors..." I think Outdoor productions of this scale are amazing I think Everyone does but does the Public demand it ? Or are we simply getting biger for the sake of getting bigger ?
The Titanic was just another shipwreck, it had such a a massive impact on history because it was huge and lot's of people died, it's the proportions. When a Stage this large collapses people are going to be hurt and killed. I'm rather upset at the promoters and the people who should have known better. and I have to agree this warrants and industry-wide look into certain practices. IMHO
Second, someone mentioned a fact that I think we are over looking. paraphrasing here " The public wants the same show they'd see in an arena..." Really ? Do they ? Or have we, as an industry, sold ourselves as being able to bring, " The Arena Experience Outdoors..." I think Outdoor productions of this scale are amazing I think Everyone does but does the Public demand it ? Or are we simply getting biger for the sake of getting bigger ?
The Titanic was just another shipwreck, it had such a a massive impact on history because it was huge and lot's of people died, it's the proportions. When a Stage this large collapses people are going to be hurt and killed. I'm rather upset at the promoters and the people who should have known better. and I have to agree this warrants and industry-wide look into certain practices. IMHO
The issue of portable/temporary staging structures falling with injuries/deaths a result, goes back at least as far as Brooklyn in the 80's when two lighting trusses went over in a gusty thunderstorm, with the DS truss landing on singer Curtis Mayfield, resulting in his paralysis.
The issues then were the same now.
- No authority issuing permits to assure safe practices being followed as to the proper and safe assembly of the structure. This is STILL a problem, as is currently being discovered in Indiana, where the authorities are just now discovering that no authorities that would normally be issuing permits, did so and that the structure falls thru numerous cracks in the legal system (at least in Indiana) in terms of who should be paying attention.
- The difficulty of having 50 states, each with countless local jurisdictions, all potentially enacting separate and varying regulations for the design and installation of portable stages and roofing systems.
- No good planning guides for event managers to follow as to when appropriate decisions should be made, with the attending authority to have those decisions followed.
- Nobody looking at the designs of these systems carefully enough to assure they will function correctly in adverse weather conditions. Attending this is the creep of system size, with ton's more gear being added to a structure that defeats some of the assumed safety factors, such as a roof that could in theory be lowered, except that the act has hung the line array and video screens, which defeats the safety systems.
It'll be interesting to see where this all leads.
The issues then were the same now.
- No authority issuing permits to assure safe practices being followed as to the proper and safe assembly of the structure. This is STILL a problem, as is currently being discovered in Indiana, where the authorities are just now discovering that no authorities that would normally be issuing permits, did so and that the structure falls thru numerous cracks in the legal system (at least in Indiana) in terms of who should be paying attention.
- The difficulty of having 50 states, each with countless local jurisdictions, all potentially enacting separate and varying regulations for the design and installation of portable stages and roofing systems.
- No good planning guides for event managers to follow as to when appropriate decisions should be made, with the attending authority to have those decisions followed.
- Nobody looking at the designs of these systems carefully enough to assure they will function correctly in adverse weather conditions. Attending this is the creep of system size, with ton's more gear being added to a structure that defeats some of the assumed safety factors, such as a roof that could in theory be lowered, except that the act has hung the line array and video screens, which defeats the safety systems.
It'll be interesting to see where this all leads.
1990 actually. Curtis Mayfield and 6 Others Injured at Brooklyn Concert - New York Times
Anyone know which CB member was named in the lawsuit(s) for having sold the Genie Towers? Perhaps he'll comment.
Having built many of outdoor stages, I see no easy way to quick release the roof skin. If there is, is it a good idea to have something that big coming loose in that kind of weather? What needs to looked at is what is allowed to be flown on a Tomcat or Thomas style roof. Although a Mountain stage can have it's own set of problems, cost not being the least, it is much more stable than a legged system. A SL 550 will allow a fairly decent rig, but because it has a trailer base it is inherently more stable. I recently used a Brown stage that doesn't allow you to move the roof in over 10 to 15 MPH wind. The scrims are on pulleys to be able to get them down quickly,but you still have the sound and video to deal with. The difference with the Brown roof is the roof is actually tin so you don't have a skin to break loose.
Sorry this has to be my first post in this forum but I liked so much your input that I had to do it.
I to have been in the industry for a number of years, I started when I was 16, I am 37 now.
And yes, I agree, long gone are those days of Upfront ground supports which were mostly made of heavy steel and only the roof was an Aluminum truss system.
And even then, we had emergency safety procedures to release the tarps in case of heavy winds or rain.
I do not want to say too much because I do not know the producers of this show that ended up in this tragedy and it breaks my heart to think of those truss spot operators. I started my days in the show industry as one of them so I am very well aware of the challenges of that position.
Not knowing much about this particular production and judging only by the video it seems that the storm got them by surprise and it also seems to me that the staging design would not have allowed the roof to be lowered quickly anyway.
I have canceled two concerts in my life, one due to weather and one due to sound equipment problems. So I know it is not an easy choice.
About getting the weather reports... when I produced events with ground supports, no matter the size, I was in contact with the local airport's control tower to get constant updates and make decisions on precisely this very thing.
We also use portable wind socks and portable wind speed sensors, and yes... the rule is clear, when close to the threshold of the engineering design, there are two options, let the tarp blow, or lower the roof.
I hope we get to know more details.
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Unless the bolts were not tightened properly or were to old, or washers were not used.
This is one of the scariest show industry pictures I have ever seen in my life... and I have seen some stuff...
Man, the thought of being one of those spot ops...
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