Starting from scratch Wireless Mic purchase

dreamist

Member
Hey gang..

I had decided that this was the year I was going to start building an inventory of wireless mic equipment so I could stop borrowing/renting. I've got a small musical coming up in a few months, so I started the process of buying some gear.. only to find that whereas I thought my mind was made up, now I'm hitting pause.

In our area, which has several community theatres and friendly high school theatre programs, the Audio Technica 3000 series has been king. I've worked with it a bunch, and I've always found it to be a very high value -- as in, for the price, hard to beat what you get. With my experience with the units, and the built in inventory via the other theatres in town to borrow as needed, it seemed like a no brainer to go with AT 3000's.

Low and behold, as I start to dig into the current state of pricing etc, I see that the Gen4 AT3000's are due out any minute. That'd probably be enough to make me hit pause -- but the real kicker is that the connector is different.. looks like they flipped from the Hirose (which i've always thought was... okay..) to some funky locking connector that I doubt anyone knows much about yet. Other than my misgivings about a new and possibly proprietary connector, it also basically completely eliminates the advantage of purchasing the same units that are in most the rest of the theatres in town.

I realize I can still buy the Gen3 stuff, but that doesn't seem like a wise way to start my inventory.

So... that led me to start looking at other manufacturer's gear. I know Sennheiser is a favorite.. I've touched some of their really high end touring stuff, but I've not personally dealt with the Evolution stuff (which is where my price point is). Looking at the Evolution line, looks like they just came out with their Gen4 as well. Which brings me to my questions:

1) does anyone have any more info on the new connector that AT is moving to, in terms of whether it's completely proprietary or is it already out in the field on something else?

2) In the Sennheiser G4 line, it looks like I have either the 100 or the 500. Looks like the 500 has some Ethernet management ability, and some more frequencies (32 vs 20 simultaneous possible). Given that I doubt my inventory will grow past 14 mics -- are there significant reasons that would push me to the 500, given that it seems to be around $300 per channel more expensive?

3) Are there any other lines I ought to look at? I've never been a Shure wireless mic fan, but then again I've not looked at their gear in quite a while..

Appreciate any thoughts you may have.. While I've never been a HUGE fan of the Hirose connector on the AT packs, I have to think that changing it out without also changing the series numbers is going to cause a world of pain for AT and their end users... :-/

Thanks!
 
Can't comment on the AT3000, but I use a total of 18 channels of the Sennheiser Gen3s and Gen2s (both 100, 300, and 500 series) and am looking at the Gen4s for future purchases, so a few thoughts on those:

-The radio and tuning is the same across the levels of the Evolution series, meaning you can use the same number of channels regardless of which level you get. The difference is the number of compatible channels that are preprogrammed into the receivers. If you coordinate frequencies with a computer program (Shure Wireless Workbench, Sennheiser Wireless Systems Manager) then this won't matter at all. You can also cheat a bit and get one 500 level receiver and the rest 100 series, then use your 500 series receiver to coordinate your frequencies and manually tune the rest.

-If you have your wireless rack backstage, you may have an A2 who needs to be able to listen to the feed coming into each receiver for during-show troubleshooting. The higher level receivers in the Evolution system have a dedicated headphone output with a volume control, the 100 series does not. I'm trying to get around that by getting a rackmounted headphone amplifier and using the 1/4" output from the 100 series to cheat and get headphone monitoring that way, but I haven't tested the setup yet so I can't recommend it for certain.

-The Sennheiser G4 series also touts a wider tuning bandwidth than the older G3, but it's really only on the 300/500 series in the AW+ band (470-558 MHz). With the changes in the frequency spectrum, I think this is a really big difference and depending on your frequency environment could make a huge difference if you're going to be using more than a few channels on a regular basis. I'm already seeing a lot fewer free channels in my area in the 500s (especially the high 500s) and I imagine this will continue to get worse in the near future with the spectrum changes after the FCC auction.

-The 500 series comes with a much nicer lav mic than the 100 series. If you are going to replace the mic anyway, then this may not be a consideration for you, but if you aren't, the MKE2 is a much nicer (and more expensive) mic than the ME2 or ME4 that comes with the 100 series. If you're using handheld mics, the major differences in the series are the capsules (which you can purchase separately) and some lower power options that help with channel density.

-If you haven't already budgeted for it, make sure you plan for antenna distro. Running 14 channels without antenna distro is going to make your life difficult, especially if your receiver position is far from the stage (or backstage without line-of-sight to the performance area). You can get the Sennheiser-branded stuff and know that it will be compatible, or try to save some money with off-brand gear. Thus far I've been using RFVenue distro units and Audio Technica antenna paddles, and it's working decently well.

Because of our frequency environment in Los Angeles, I'm most likely going to move our inventory towards Shure ULXD digital wireless in the future, because even with the higher end Evolution series I'm still dealing with the shortcomings of analog wireless. It may be worth it to get an RF Explorer and get a sense of what's happening in the UHF range in your area before you make your final decision. Good luck!
 
Have to second the thumbs up on Sennheiser. I have a mix of G1 to G3 equipment, and they all play nicely together. The fact that some of that G1 stuff is going on 12 years of age speaks well of the build. In fact, the only complaint I have on the older G1 equipment is the use of the 9 volt battery, as compared to the AA's. Digital world needs some shaking out yet, so I have kept my distance. No question that at some point in time, that will be the way to go. High 400Mhz to low 500Mhz (A and A1 bands) seems safe for now, and probably will remain safe until at least 2025, possibly a lot longer. New G4 stuff looks to be compatible too. You can usually pick up old G1 receivers on Ebay for ~ $100 which can be used in practice systems so you don't have to pull stuff from your main system. Connectors have remained the same all these years. The 100 series are fine units. 500's have some extra features, but they don't sound any different unless you are using a different mic cartridge on the handhelds. About the only system change they made is that G2 and newer units have a pilot signal, so if you're using a G1 mic, you have to turn that off in the menu of the receiver or the receiver will mute.
 
I was at this phase a few years ago with my arsenal of equipment. I dropped a few thousand on some used Senny gear (which I love, but have never used in a production). I thought it would be nice to have a few handhelds in my rack of gear in case I needed it. I realized shortly after that I'd have rather spend that 2-3k on a good batch of wired mics, maybe a chunk of out a nicer digital console, a digital snake, etc. Wireless is great, but it's still an expensive leap to replace a 15 dollar cable.

I have never been a fan of AT wireless (you mention you've never been a fan of Shure). I used to like their original U series line (it seemed like an industry standard for quite some time) and then the UR gear. Now, I wouldn't buy any of their equipment since I've become a Senny fan.

Overall, the above posts already have a great overview of the comparisons between Senn/AT - I'd encourage you to consider if you really need to spend the money on the wireless, how much you're renting, especially in light of the new FCC regulations (and knowing that in 10 years, it's probably going to change again). Whatever you spend money on today is a limited time investment that you may or may not see a return on. If you've done the math on that, have at it, but realize wireless doesn't last forever. I wish someone had given me that advice when I purchased some to use at gigs a few years ago. I probably would've kept renting/bought less systems (and I certainly glad I only bought 3 systems and not 10-15 like I always wanted to).

Best of luck with your decision!
 
Wireless is great, but it's still an expensive leap to replace a 15 dollar cable.
Kind of like not having to wrap them up at the end of the night ;)
Have a job coming up next week. I'm working with a choral group, 6 soloists. We are mixed in with 10 other acts that day. Each soloist gets assigned a mic. When our slot is done, they walk off stage, hand in their mics, and I snap the lid on the receiver case and take it home. End of tear-down. It's nice because I can get setup without having to wait for the prior act to un-spin their web of wires, and be in my car leaving while the next act spins their web.
 
Kind of like not having to wrap them up at the end of the night ;)
Have a job coming up next week. I'm working with a choral group, 6 soloists. We are mixed in with 10 other acts that day. Each soloist gets assigned a mic. When our slot is done, they walk off stage, hand in their mics, and I snap the lid on the receiver case and take it home. End of tear-down. It's nice because I can get setup without having to wait for the prior act to un-spin their web of wires, and be in my car leaving while the next act spins their web.

To each their own! :)
 
I was at this phase a few years ago with my arsenal of equipment. I dropped a few thousand on some used Senny gear (which I love, but have never used in a production). I thought it would be nice to have a few handhelds in my rack of gear in case I needed it. I realized shortly after that I'd have rather spend that 2-3k on a good batch of wired mics, maybe a chunk of out a nicer digital console, a digital snake, etc. Wireless is great, but it's still an expensive leap to replace a 15 dollar cable.

Audio is certainly a neverending pit to throw money into.. and wireless in general is a consumable. Unfortunately, if you're doing musicals (which we do, and would like to do more of) wired mics just aren't really any option anymore. Audiences expect an SPL that's high enough that you'd really need an extraordinary set of performers to be able to achieve the product that they expect using wired area mics -- and that set of talent just doesn't exist in my area. So, we're stuck with lav mics... when I'm the A1 on a project, I often mutter the following: "The only thing worse than wireless mics is not having them."

Great points about just holding off for a while longer to let the FCC settle (and possibly make the move direct to digital).. Those are definitely things that weigh on me, especially the digital stuff.. I'm not super convinced that the FCC is going to upend the upper 400 to mid 500s any time soon, and I've got at least three vacant stations in my area in that range. I've peeked at the digital stuff, and it's just not baked yet (and it's super expensive).. so, I think if I want to purchase now, analog is still the way...

On the return on investment -- I'm not sure that I will ever see a direct return on investment, or at least not one you could measure on a spreadsheet.. I've considered just renting, since we have a fairly slow production tempo -- but renting at market rates doesn't make a ton of financial gut-sense to me.. About the lowest rate I've seen with theatre quality mic element is $75/wk/channel for our required three week rental. That's the lowest, and who knows what shape the lav will be in and whether we'll be on the hook to replace it.. if I figure a 14 channel production, that's $3150 per production. I figure a 14 channel system will run me somewhere around $14k to buy.. so four productions in and I've bought my system.

That leaves borrowing or paying less than market rates to rent from one of the other local theatres or high schools, which is what I've been doing.. it's attractive in that my cash outlay is very low, but it's risky because I can never count on getting exactly what I need when I need it, and I have no control over what shape the gear is in. I've dealt with more audio problems coming from the mistreated gear that I'm borrowing than I care to count.. so I think my real return on investment purchasing our own wireless is that I get to measurably increase the quality/consistency of our product for our audience.

I definitely appreciate the word of warning! Artistically, we want to move toward doing more musicals at a higher quality, and I think the right choice to help us achieve that is to purchase a system using today's tech and let the chips fall..

Cheers!
 
Audio is certainly a neverending pit to throw money into.. and wireless in general is a consumable. Unfortunately, if you're doing musicals (which we do, and would like to do more of) wired mics just aren't really any option anymore. Audiences expect an SPL that's high enough that you'd really need an extraordinary set of performers to be able to achieve the product that they expect using wired area mics -- and that set of talent just doesn't exist in my area. So, we're stuck with lav mics... when I'm the A1 on a project, I often mutter the following: "The only thing worse than wireless mics is not having them."

Great points about just holding off for a while longer to let the FCC settle (and possibly make the move direct to digital).. Those are definitely things that weigh on me, especially the digital stuff.. I'm not super convinced that the FCC is going to upend the upper 400 to mid 500s any time soon, and I've got at least three vacant stations in my area in that range. I've peeked at the digital stuff, and it's just not baked yet (and it's super expensive).. so, I think if I want to purchase now, analog is still the way...

On the return on investment -- I'm not sure that I will ever see a direct return on investment, or at least not one you could measure on a spreadsheet.. I've considered just renting, since we have a fairly slow production tempo -- but renting at market rates doesn't make a ton of financial gut-sense to me.. About the lowest rate I've seen with theatre quality mic element is $75/wk/channel for our required three week rental. That's the lowest, and who knows what shape the lav will be in and whether we'll be on the hook to replace it.. if I figure a 14 channel production, that's $3150 per production. I figure a 14 channel system will run me somewhere around $14k to buy.. so four productions in and I've bought my system.

That leaves borrowing or paying less than market rates to rent from one of the other local theatres or high schools, which is what I've been doing.. it's attractive in that my cash outlay is very low, but it's risky because I can never count on getting exactly what I need when I need it, and I have no control over what shape the gear is in. I've dealt with more audio problems coming from the mistreated gear that I'm borrowing than I care to count.. so I think my real return on investment purchasing our own wireless is that I get to measurably increase the quality/consistency of our product for our audience.

I definitely appreciate the word of warning! Artistically, we want to move toward doing more musicals at a higher quality, and I think the right choice to help us achieve that is to purchase a system using today's tech and let the chips fall..

Cheers!

Some great points as well. I agree with the digital points too, it's too new for sure! If you think you can make it worth it, it's certainly worth it. And as for musicals, yeah. I usually turn away shows that can't afford to rent wireless for them and want to use area mics because, well, typically it just doesn't sound good. They're expecting Broadway-quality shows with area mics, and it never works. Ever.

The systems I purchased were for what I knew I could get away with at a bare minimum, and it sounds like you've got it figured out for your situation. I worked for a high school years ago that every quarter threw 1200-1400 at wireless mic rentals. I would've taken 2 less systems for each show and started investing, but they didn't want to... I wonder if my stipend could've been higher? Perhaps.

I found some good used systems (over on PSW) that are still in the 500 range a few years ago and were in great condition. If you're willing to buy some lightly used or old rental gear (and just buy your own heads for them) - that might be an option for you too. :)
 
I should qualify my reluctance on digital: The technology is not the problem. The problem is the good bands are being used for other things such as wifi hot spots, phones, etc. Search the threads a bit and you will find stories of people that had systems that worked fine in dress rehearsal, but once there was an audience in the room trouble started. The digital systems work like any other network, converting voice into data and then sending that data out with checksums. If a packet collides with other data the checksum doesn't match and another attempt is made. When running clean it is totally transparent. As traffic increases, you may end up with delays, dropouts, and mutes. Not the type of thing you want to deal with on opening night. At some point, someone is going to come out with a rock solid system, probably using a unique strategy. At that point, the industry will be clamoring for their product. I don't think that has happened yet.
 
I should qualify my reluctance on digital: The technology is not the problem. The problem is the good bands are being used for other things such as wifi hot spots, phones, etc. Search the threads a bit and you will find stories of people that had systems that worked fine in dress rehearsal, but once there was an audience in the room trouble started.

For sure.. when I think digital I'm not talking about the 2.4ghz, 5ghz, or 900mhz bands, I'm talking about where I think digital is going for the foreseeable which is stuff similar to Shure's ULXD system.. digital transmission (with all the advantages of digital in terms of being able to squeeze more channels into the same bandwidth) but over VHF or UHF TV bands. I think any bands used by WiFi, Bluetooth, etc, are non-starters..
 
Digital is a viable solution when cramming more channels (12+) into a smaller bandwidth where we could only fit 3-6 in the past, but I certainly wouldn't be using anything with cell phones, wifi hotspots, etc. Way too much interference.
 
I like Shure (1st pick) and Sennheiser over AT. Digital is indeed here. In truly congested RF worlds like here in SF Bay Area, it provides a huge advantage. WWB has much better functionality at present than Sennheiser software, tho I understand they have a major rewrite in progress. And maybe just luck of the draw, but I have never bricked a Shure device over the IR link, but that did happen to me on a G3 last year during a transmitter firmware upgrade, and I had to express ship the xmtr back to Sennheiser on the east coast to have it restored to life ... put a dent in the production to have it gone.
 
I've had great luck with the AT3000 series. I purchased used AT wireless mikes and had great luck with them. However my favorite microphone is the AKGWMS series. The Mic packs are tiny and run on one Double-A battery for 6 hours. There's great telemetry on the receivers and line of sight at over 300' is no problem. If you really wanna save some money there is knock off my ex out there that are exactly like sures 4 channels per 2 ru Receiver I in its for less than $400. The pecs look exactly like Sure BLX body packs. I have a friend who picked up some of these and they are working great for him. This might be a stop gap for you before you invest major money. I believe they are GTD audio uhf wireless.
 
I like Shure (1st pick) and Sennheiser over AT. Digital is indeed here. In truly congested RF worlds like here in SF Bay Area, it provides a huge advantage. WWB has much better functionality at present than Sennheiser software, tho I understand they have a major rewrite in progress. And maybe just luck of the draw, but I have never bricked a Shure device over the IR link, but that did happen to me on a G3 last year during a transmitter firmware upgrade, and I had to express ship the xmtr back to Sennheiser on the east coast to have it restored to life ... put a dent in the production to have it gone.

I never understood why rental shops gave me free spares until I had stuff fail on me during shows. Everyone should have a spare. And a plan B. and a plan C. It prevents dents.
 
I have checked the mic receivers and found the FCC symbol adjacent to the antenna connections. The mics sound great and have mini XLR plugs for mics. You can replace the supplied mics with one of many available headworn mics. This is a budget recommendation until a final decision and more robust budget can be developed.
 
I've been using the GTD units for about 4 years and have accumulated about 20 channels worth. While they are a great low cost choice and have some great features, they have some reliability issues. My most common problem with the body packs is the way that the microphone connector attaches to the circuit board. The solder pins of the connector barely, or in some cases do not, touch the solder pads on the board, so a solder bridge is used to complete the connection. Over time the connector flexes and the solder bridge breaks, leaving you with no or intermittent audio. You can fix this with a short length of wire soldered between the board and the connector, but it is annoying and everyone of my 20 body packs is built the same way. Another issue is with the pin-outs on the mic connector. I used a number of Samson SE-10s (I do lots of theater with kids) with an adapter kit. However the Samson adapter to fit the GTD will not work without rewiring it to a different pin-out. Sorry - I can't recall which connector standard this is or which wires I had to switch, but it was a bit of an issue...

The body packs are plastic, so there is the risk of breakage, but I've honestly never had that happen. Frequency selection is by groups and each of the 4 channels is in a separate group, so if that group has an active TV station occupying the center frequency, you will have difficulty programming around it. Over time I've had systems that just started to develop drop outs for no apparent reason. I bought all of mine on Amazon and started purchasing the extended warranty. I made out OK on that once or twice when I had unreliable units and Square Trade just replaced the unit, but they have changed their policy and want you to take it somewhere to have it fixed. Good luck finding someone who will do that...

Eventually I retired all of these units as I transitioned to Sennheiser EW100 G3 units in band A. There is one feature that I miss from the GTDs and that's a simple mute lock. Two button pushes on the GTD and you can prevent the actor from muting or turning off the body pack. Not so simple on the Senns, but a small price to pay for improved reliability.

Short story - if you have a limited budget, you can't beat the GTD option (less than $100/channel!) as a way to get a lot of wireless for a little money, but be aware that you will have to put up with some performance issues. BTW - the latest units are in the 500Mhz band, where all of mine were 600Mhz...
 
I've been using the GTD units for about 4 years and have accumulated about 20 channels worth. While they are a great low cost choice and have some great features, they have some reliability issues. My most common problem with the body packs is the way that the microphone connector attaches to the circuit board. The solder pins of the connector barely, or in some cases do not, touch the solder pads on the board, so a solder bridge is used to complete the connection. Over time the connector flexes and the solder bridge breaks, leaving you with no or intermittent audio. You can fix this with a short length of wire soldered between the board and the connector, but it is annoying and everyone of my 20 body packs is built the same way. Another issue is with the pin-outs on the mic connector. I used a number of Samson SE-10s (I do lots of theater with kids) with an adapter kit. However the Samson adapter to fit the GTD will not work without rewiring it to a different pin-out. Sorry - I can't recall which connector standard this is or which wires I had to switch, but it was a bit of an issue...

The body packs are plastic, so there is the risk of breakage, but I've honestly never had that happen. Frequency selection is by groups and each of the 4 channels is in a separate group, so if that group has an active TV station occupying the center frequency, you will have difficulty programming around it. Over time I've had systems that just started to develop drop outs for no apparent reason. I bought all of mine on Amazon and started purchasing the extended warranty. I made out OK on that once or twice when I had unreliable units and Square Trade just replaced the unit, but they have changed their policy and want you to take it somewhere to have it fixed. Good luck finding someone who will do that...

Eventually I retired all of these units as I transitioned to Sennheiser EW100 G3 units in band A. There is one feature that I miss from the GTDs and that's a simple mute lock. Two button pushes on the GTD and you can prevent the actor from muting or turning off the body pack. Not so simple on the Senns, but a small price to pay for improved reliability.

Short story - if you have a limited budget, you can't beat the GTD option (less than $100/channel!) as a way to get a lot of wireless for a little money, but be aware that you will have to put up with some performance issues. BTW - the latest units are in the 500Mhz band, where all of mine were 600Mhz...
Actually, the Sennheisers do have a "lock" feature that locks out the controls on the pack so the user doesn't change anything or turn the pack off. hit Menu - Lock - on. (Don't ask me how to unlock them because I forget! But it's easy.)
 

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