Strand 500ML Console

[MNicolai]

Circling back to the project at hand, I would say insist on the lighting systems you want. If Wenger/Strand won’t give it to you, ETC or your chosen vendor will produce drawings for you. At the end of the day, it's your money and you should not be beholden to the manufacturer's rep who happened to land a key role in the project team.

I would also make sure that their relationship to the project doesn't forfeit you ability to solicit a competitive bid. If everything bids out Clancy/Wenger/Strand/etc no substitutions, then none of those vendors or the installers of those systems have a motive to give you favorable pricing. Not to say anyone will beat you up on pricing out of malice, but if they aren't afraid of losing the project to someone else and price a little higher, even an extra 1% margin on $600,000 of theater equipment scope is an extra $60,000. If they're subbed to electrical you can tack another 15% markup on that and then another 15% markup to the CM. Now that $60k increase could cost you $80k -- whether you pay an extra $80k for your project or to avoid blowing the budget they have to carve $80k of features out.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Hmmmm, interesting Philips Lighting is now Signify. Also the Showline fixtures are now branded Vari*lite.

Just had lunch with Strand regional manager. Philips now owns only 49% of what use tobe Philips Lighting, so they had to change the name (I think perhaps a Euro-law). So Strand, Varilight, Selecon, and Showline. The name Philips is dropped (or they have to pay a license fee). All new Selecon products as well as Strand will be will be branded Strand. All new Showline products as well as Varilight will be branded Varilight. Perfectly clear. Maybe. And certainly to be the case for at least a brief interlude.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Here is the consultant:
http://www.idibri.com/
I found it interesting that they don't seem to have an ASTC member on their staff.

They use to be Acoustic Dimensions. I worked with then on WIllow Creek Church. I don't know why they don't mix with the other theatre consultants - likely their acoustic consulting roots. No ETCP certified techs either - or at least that pop out.

 

[Capt.T_T.]

Truthfully? If you're able to avoid having a NEO on your hands, you should. Full Disclosure, mine's been on beta software ever since I took the gig -- but even on what I was assured was "stable" software I've run into a myriad of issues. (example: The board crashing if you record over an already-existing cue in a cue list). It has some nifty gizmos, but few that other consoles don't have, and gizmos are only good on a console when they work reliably anyway.

 

[Lynnchesque]

Hmm, I own a few universes of Lightfactory keys, and it has never let me down over multiple years of shows. It's disappointing to hear that the NEO doesn't live up to industry standards. It is a good/bad thing that it seems to be under constant development. I would be curious to know what features other consoles offer that LF/NEO don't.

That said, I was talked into buying some Phillips lighting gear... only to discover the absurd amount of proprietary hurdles to jump in order to use it. I had to wire my own dmx-rj45 adapter to get the damn things to work, as they use a proprietary pin layout- something I only figured out from a random ETC document. And to even use Artnet apparently requires yet another Phillips box. Ugh.

 

[Capt.T_T.]

In all honesty, it could just be my particular console. It's been out a few times for malfunctioning hardware in addition to all the software issues. That said, it's definitely soured me on Phillips equipment in general. That and the constant rebranding making it difficult to find the right manuals, tutorials, and troubleshooting information.

One of the neat things it /does/ is let you type syntax into the console command line, which is handy if you don't know the console face too well.

 

[Lynnchesque]

I'd add that Phillips customer service took ages to get back to me... But LF reps were very responsive. It's an odd situation.

Yes, I chose it over other similarly priced PC consoles because it seemed to have many more features and flexibility to offer. But I've definitely discovered bugs.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

We had a Philips Neo in on a dog and pony show early last year, and it looked *gorgeous*... but I didn't have to program on it either.

But, I have learned, the most important question is this:

If I come here and ask a stupid question about it (see my ongoing thread "Stupid Ion Questions")... will you get one answer? or 30?

 

[tomthetechie]

The Neo gets a lot of hate on this site, but based on your R21's already being installed it's WAY to late to try and flip that spec to anything. But between a Neo and a 500ML, I'll take a Neo every time. It is under constant development, that has some pros and cons. There have been upgrades to the hardware as well. The first was a processor update, the second was a full overhaul of the computer. Personally I have found a couple of bugs and have had a couple of crashes. Since the last hardware update and the most recent software build (this is what would be shipped to you), I haven't had any problems. If you do have trouble with your Neo, feel free to reach out to me.

The R21's from an installation/integration standpoint are awesome. It saves costs across the board and commercial electricians seem to have less trouble getting them hooked up then full racks. From a day to day operation standpoint, it will depend on the design implemented in your venue. R21 systems are custom built and is aimed at permanent installation. You technically can "swap modules" but there's a little more to that than ripping it out and moving it over a slot. I would make sure that DMX distribution and non-dim modules are part of that initial design and finding out if your R21 dimmers are SCR's or IGBT(could be either). If you have S21's for trees/booms make sure people don't abuse the pins on the plug.

@Capt.T_T. I am curious which gen of console you have and which version you are using. Have you been running on the same Beta build this whole time?


Edit: I realized that this was mostly aimed at OP which is long since too late. Still valid for the bump if an R21 system is spec'd

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

While the lack of broad support and assistance for the Neo compared to the Eos line is unfortunate, for me the it's not the greatest shortcoming of the Signify brand. The hopelessly long in the tooth Vision Net simply can't come close to Paradigm and the power controls - the Strand single relay rack compared to the many Echo, Sensor, and Foundry power controls comes up very short. Add on top of that that practically every product ETC makes is UL924, making design and install much simpler and more economical. Even the CS par is 924, making it one of a very few directly controlled luminair that is.

It's unfortunate that there is no real competition for entertainment lighting when an entire installed system is the issue.

 

[tomthetechie]

For the record I'm not saying it's all the best thing since sliced bread, it's all just not as bad as it's made out to be. Personally I think vision.net and paradigm both are mediocre (at best) control options especially when you get into networked DMX systems. The biggest problem is that the "competition" is just ETC and Strand.... Lex, lyntech, leviton *laugh* nor JS are really coming to table with competitive pricing or better solutions. Top that off with theatrical lighting gear being added to the electrical package for the building. Not much I can do about it. So we are stuck with the current dynamic. Strand has no pressure to change up and innovate, and they will continue to be a part of the conversation until some other brand decides to really get in the game.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I find Paradigm to be almost unlimited. Vision.net doesn't even seem reliable in my experience, and touch screen design options are nearly pathetic.

 

[tomthetechie]

In the broader world of control, any platform that only controls 1 thing, regardless of how well, is sub par in my opinion. Once you start forking out the dough for touch screens, there is no good reason not to have solutions that can do more. But I'm a big advocate for cross platform integrations and if that's not your cup of tea I can respect that. Vision.net button stations are alright, I liked what pathway was doing with their stations (though I haven't used one since Beta so I don't know how that turned out), and paradigm is a great solution.... if a venue only needs that one solution, which is increasingly rare. Every time I see 2 interfaces mounted side by side, 1 for AV, 1 for lighting, I die a little more inside. Though at the end of the day, that's just my opinion.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Depends if your designing for techies or casual users. The Crestron/AMX approach is nice for the principal or lecturer, but very limited in it's lighting flexibility. Plus all on one means if it goes down, everything is in the crapper.

 

[tomthetechie]

I would argue that in a theatrical environment especially, that's a flawed train of thought as redundant system exists in the form of lighting consoles, mixers and matrix switchers. How often are architectural and auto systems aimed at technicians? Not to say more in depth functionality cannot exist in the control system. The secret "tech page" is added for good reason.
An all in one solution does require more than an entry level programmer to integrate without the loss of functionality. Any control platform that has the ability to subscribe to and generate multicast addresses by extension has the ability to "snapshot" and playback a "scene." This is the basis of how Pathways stations work. The limitations come down to the processing power of the unit, and the bandwidth of the network. DMX, at it's core is not a complicated protocol to recreate, and packeting that information into Art-Net or sACN isn't that much more effort (personally I find this easier). It's one of the advantages of not changing from DMX. Even cue lists are possible (having done this myself in Qsys) I still prefer to use a console, but the functionality is entirely possible.
To the point of not having your eggs in one basket, I think you first have to look at the weakest link in the chain. Many system spec's cheap out on certain portions of a system (switches are a big one). By centralizing that control and eliminating a proprietary or single use system, that allows those funds to be used somewhere else. There are few things that will truly cripple an entire set of systems if the control system tanks.

 

[stagemanager1]

I sure appreciated all of your input. We had some bids come in that offered ETC as an alternate.
So far I have yet to find a glowing report re: strand consoles. And the word "regret" keeps coming up.
I will update this post as decisions are made. (The bean counters on the third floor make most of those decisions....)