Strength of tieline?

@Smatticus I've posted this on Control Booth before but your post today is bringing back an educational memory.
In 1990 I found myself accepting the position of Head Electrician in a newly constructed theatre, brand new from the foundations up. In preparation I had purchased several spools of 3/4" black cotton flat twill tape and cut one spool into measured lengths of approximately 30" to have a decent stock of tie-line on hand to begin our first season's operation. The theatre's founders had begun decades prior in the Montreal / Ottawa area and had been in Hamilton for nearly 20 years but always renting performing spaces by the week, NEVER having owned, maintained or been responsible for their own building. The owners had opted to purchase all of their soft goods from a company in England and scheduled their delivery for their anticipated date of occupancy. You can imagine how that went, construction projects rarely are complete and certified for occupancy on schedule. Of course the British supplier shipped on time and the many heavy cardboard cartons sat on fork lift skids in the mud outside the theatre with the owners wrapping them in plastic as protection against the rain, sleet, snow and mud of our Canadian winter. As you can imagine, the heavy velour absorbed appreciable moisture and WEIGHT in spite of the several layers of thin poly / plastic.
FINALLY the official Certificate of Occupancy was awarded less than a week from the scheduled, and SOLD OUT, grand opening.
Tie line was provided by the fabricators for all of the borders, legs, sky cloth and both scrims but, due to their weight, the fabricators had recommended the purchase of chain to hang both black travellers and the extremely heavy and canvas lined House Curtain / Grand Drape, call it what you will.
CHAIN? Hell no said the carpenters, who'd never spent any appreciable time in a building with a fly tower and line-sets let alone a motor powered line-set.
Heck no.
It was decided hanging the house curtain should be the first order of business.
A forklift was required to elevate the damaged cartons one at a time on muddy skids up on to the truck dock.
On stage, the carpenters laid a layer of thin poly on the dirty stage then proceeded to lay their pristine velour face down on the deck with the burlap reinforced and grommetted edge down stage below the motorized line set #1 and the weighted lower edge up stage. The heavy curtain had been fabricated in two overlapping halves with both on-stage edges folded back and finished to allow for classy, paiged, centre bows. The carps had the first half unfurled and spread out flat and were forking in the second half when they realized they had the SL half on SR. The thin plastic they'd laid down was already ripped and in disarray when they commenced their kicking / shuffling walk attempting to move the SR half across to SL.
It didn't help at all that various contractors were still trying to traverse the stage with a variety of heavy steel road boxes and muddy wheelbarrows as they tried to vacate the site via the only truck dock.
Once the carp's had the velour positioned on the deck they elected to un-crate the curtain's heavy light-tight liner and position it face down on the velour.
Around about now they noticed the fabricators had failed to include ties for either the velour OR its canvas liner AND THEN they read the included notation suggesting the provision of chain.
CHAIN! Hell no!! We don't need no stinkin' chain! We'll just grab a few fist-fulls of Ronnie's pristine 3/4" flat cotton black twill tape. I tried to tell them, honest I did. I even tried to offer them a carton of jack-chain I had on hand from lowering fluorescent fixtures over several sewing machines up in wardrobe but HELL NO! We don't need no stinking chain. We're CARPENTERS and we KNOW what we're doing.
Their boss, the Head Carpenter, produced his key and lowered the electrically winched line-set in to it's preset lower end of travel limit. So far, so good. Then the Head Carpenter produced a second key and dispatched a carpenter minion to the grid to over-ride Hoffend's lower end of travel limit.
Now we're in scarier territory.
Knowing when I've met my match (along with being seriously outnumbered) I escaped to the relative safety of approximately the tenth row and got comfortable to watch the performance.
They lowered the powered line-set 'til it was practically on the deck; threaded one of my flat 3/4" cotton twill tapes through a grommet in the canvas liner, through another grommet in the heavy velour house curtain then tied the free ends together with various types of knots and hitches.
If you're paying close attention, you may have noticed no one had added anything to the bright yellow pipe-weights Hoffend had thoughtfully strapped to the single-purchase arbor.
Again, with the simultaneous use of two keys, they set the speed control at minimum and began to raise the line-set.
They cleared most of the other line-sets to the grid and began their process.
Motor up a little.
Stop.
Kick, kick. Shuffle, shuffle down stage 'til the powered line-set was close to vertical again.
Motor up a little.
Stop.
Kick, kick. Shuffle, shuffle down stage some more 'til the powered line-set was close to vertical again.
Repeat, repeat and repeat again until the curtain eventually cleared the floor.
I've mercifully skipped over the chaos that ensued when the motorized grooved head block lost its grip on the supporting cables where they contacted the head block for 90 degrees.
If / when you appreciate the cam-operated limit switch contained approximately 8 limits which had previously been carefully preset to slow the drive in four stages during its ascent and a similar four to slow it during its descent, you'll have a fore-shadowing of what's about to follow.
At some point it dawned on the carpenters that they might need to add counter-weights to the arbor.
Did they have any idea how many? HELL NO! But that wasn't going to stop them, remember, they're CARPENTERS.
Meanwhile I've lunched at the catering truck who was still visiting the site four times daily and was gleefully enjoying the matinee.
Finally, sometime prior to dinner, the carps thought they were done and, with the speed control still set at minimum, raised the curtain all the way to the grid, stopping it by releasing the up and over-ride buttons as there were no longer any meaningful limits.
Again, so far, so good.
Next they manually lowered the curtain in 'til it just touched the deck.
They boldly increased the speed just a little and flew the curtain all the way to the grid again.
Now, with their chests swollen with pride, they cranked the speed control to the max' and pummeled both the down and over-ride buttons withdrawing both fingers as the curtain neared the deck.
AND THEN IT HAPPENED.
Remember this was an SEW Euro-drive with no meaningful limits remaining, only the hard End Of Travel limits on the block wall behind the arbor.
When the Head Carpenter removed his two fingers from the two momentary buttons, the heavy and damp velour curtain jerked to a sudden halt then the over-stressed single wraps of twill tape snapped beginning with the extreme SR end rapidly continuing like a zipper faster and faster until all of the SR half of the velour and its canvas liner were in a damp mound on the deck whereupon the counter-weighted arbor SLAMMED into the bottom stop with this second sudden stop causing the entire SL half of the velour and its canvas lining to over-stress the remaining 3/4" flat cotton twill tape ties and suddenly descend to the deck ALL THE WAY from the grid.
The carp's presented one heck of a matinee. Their finale was stunning but they never came out for curtain calls.
When they rolled in the next morning I had all of the jack-chain I had in stock pre-cut and waiting for them, I even provided two pair of 10" Craftsman channel-locks as an additional courtesy.
I learned several lessons:
Gravity was still working and not to waste my breath attempting to educate carpenters.
Some things you can depend upon. @TimMc I'll bet you've got a few similar experiences to fall back on.
EDIT: To clarify; I'm MOST EMPHATICALLY NOT suggesting common plated #10 jack-chain is rated or recommended for overhead lifting applications but merely suggesting it is far superior to 3/4" flat cotton twill tape (and I won't even get into the non-cotton twill tapes)
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
This is the best thing I've read all year. Bravo, carps!!!
 
This is the best thing I've read all year. Bravo, carps!!!
@What Rigger? & / or @egilson1 & / or @porkchop Recalling stubborn / naive carps stories, have any of you done any serious work with hydraulic accumulators, units being counted upon eight performances weekly to elevate and / or motivate several tons of non-counterbalanced loads?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
That story almost makes me wonder if manual linesets are overall safer when it comes to some applications. If you haven't been adding weight to the arbor, you're going to have a hard time hauling something that unbalanced...

You can't bypass the "limits" on muscles afterall...
 
That story almost makes me wonder if manual linesets are overall safer when it comes to some applications. If you haven't been adding weight to the arbor, you're going to have a hard time hauling something that unbalanced...

You can't bypass the "limits" on muscles afterall...

Interesting issue. A not strong person with nearly no training or experience can move unlimited mass if motorized. If everything is maintained and working correctly, which probably includes some device with Windows embedded in it, it presumed to be safe. But, there a lot of things that could go awry.

Manual counterweight tends to keep working with no maintenance and very few real failure points if it was right and checked at install. The only thing that really cab go wrong is out of balance.

So which is more likely to result in fatalities? Not sure there is a consensus, and the financial incentives of motorized tends to skew the opinions.

I accept there is probably no moving back, towards more manual and less motorized, but the eventual need for costly replacement of parts or all of a motorized system will not go quietly. I've already heard of an early generation all motorized system where quite a few are inoperable and no repair planned. Scars me what users might do on their own to get some function back.
 
Interesting issue. A not strong person with nearly no training or experience can move unlimited mass if motorized. If everything is maintained and working correctly, which probably includes some device with Windows embedded in it, it presumed to be safe. But, there a lot of things that could go awry.

Manual counterweight tends to keep working with no maintenance and very few real failure points if it was right and checked at install. The only thing that really cab go wrong is out of balance.

So which is more likely to result in fatalities? Not sure there is a consensus, and the financial incentives of motorized tends to skew the opinions.

I accept there is probably no moving back, towards more manual and less motorized, but the eventual need for costly replacement of parts or all of a motorized system will not go quietly. I've already heard of an early generation all motorized system where quite a few are inoperable and no repair planned. Scares me what users might do on their own to get some function back.
@EdSavoie and @BillConnerFASTC Are we veering into scary / bizarre / hazardous things we've seen occur with basic, manually operated, single purchase counter-weighted line-sets at the fingers and hands of lesser skilled / experienced end users??
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
@What Rigger? & / or @egilson1 & / or @porkchop Recalling stubborn / naive carps stories, have any of you done any serious work with hydraulic accumulators, units being counted upon eight performances weekly to elevate and / or motivate several tons of non-counterbalanced loads?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

Finally getting my head back above water after the ESA Event Safety Summit.

I have not had any real experience with accumulators outside of a log slitter.

With regards to the trend of moving to motorized rigging:
Regardless of the tool if there is no proper training or periodic retraining, anything can be dangerous.
 
Finally getting my head back above water after the ESA Event Safety Summit.

I have not had any real experience with accumulators outside of a log slitter.

With regards to the trend of moving to motorized rigging:
Regardless of the tool, if there is no proper training or periodic retraining, anything can be dangerous.
@egilson1 Emphatically agreed. I'm sure we've all heard horror stories of aviation mechanics inadvertently having fingers amputated as if cut by a water jet cutter while casually waiving their hands within some plane's cowling prior to noticing a pin-hole sized leak in a high pressure hydraulic hose.
If you think back to the full bore productions of 'Les Mis', the Andrew Lloyd Webber versions with the 40' diameter raked turntable within a turntable and the cris-crossed pairs of railway tracks which revolved and extended off into both wings, the turntable was driven by a 40 HP DC servo drive (Allen Bradley on the Canadian productions) while the hulking ENORMOUS pair of EXTREMELY heavy "barricades" were activated / tilted AND driven on and off stage by a butch pair of hydraulic accumulators with their reservoirs and bladder tanks sized to propel them through the entire production as long as you began each performance with ALL of their (non-compressible) oil forced back from their reservoirs into their bladder tanks. The accumulators were designed by Broadway's Feller Precision and assembled and finessed to spec' by Canada's Handling Specialties Limited which was on the QEW Highway in the St. Catherines area at the time but I believe are currently in a former Westinghouse building in Hamilton, a building with direct rail access with several sidings and tracks running internally practically the full length of their building. I understand Handling Specialties manufacture some seriously large units which they deliver by rail on railroad wheels often rigidly attached to their creations. By the end of each performance there was little oil remaining in the pressurized tanks. In one Canadian city (to remain nameless) one of the accumulators, the stage left unit I recall, had developed an extremely minor leak resulting in the crew needing to thoroughly scour the RAKED and ROTATING stage to keep the singing and dancing cast from slithering treacherously / hazardously down their RAKED deck, their ROTATING raked deck. Clearly this was a problem crying for attention but so long as the leak was manageable, the crew dutifully scoured the escaping oil off the deck. Was anyone called in to service the issue? Heck no, it's only a small leak and so it was "only a small leak" not enough to require serious attention until one evening performance when one of the barricades began moving in jerking fits 'n starts rather than with its slick and smooth normalcy finally coming to a total halt. Normally in Les Mis' the music never stops from overture through intermission then continues from intermission all the way through to the final call. On one of the evenings I was subbing as the LX board operator (filling in an injured brother), the orchestra and conductor found themselves unexpectedly holding, and holding and HOLDING a chord until the SM called for the curtain to come in and the house and work lights were brought up while the crew, who'd been coping with their "small leak", found themselves with a unit far too heavy to motivate whatsoever once the power of the hydraulics was depleted. There wasn't gonna be no pushing this baby across the deck no matter how many available bodies you threw at it. I made O.T. that evening as I was kept on until the experts were called in and the the problem resolved. (They needed the work lights on and I, after all, was playing lighting operator that evening.) Sitting around twiddling my thumbs for a couple of hours gave me ample time to think about accumulators. You don't need to be overly bright to realize they only hold finite quantities of oil, it's not like they're oil wells on wheels. Perhaps carps can't fathom tanks? I felt sorry for the audience and cast but it's a good thing the Pro-Palette was ensconced up on one of the stage left hemp rails enshrouded behind thick layers of heavy black velour (Where the carps and props pixies down on the deck couldn't hear me giggling while being well paid besides. Often carps can be both entertaining and educational, I learned a lot about accumulators that night.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
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Pre-show announcement:
"Tonight the roll of @RonHebbard will be played by egilson1"

Back in 1995 the national tour of 'les Mis' was in Boston at the Colonial theatre, now owned by Emerson College where I received my undergraduate degree. While the teamsters and IATSE were loading in the show I was working on a show at the Majestic theatre called "the Evvys", an awards show completely student produced, designed, and executed show. We had a 53' production truck from Game Creek Video parked behind the theatre and to access it you needed to walk out the stage door into the alley, the very same alley shared by the loading dock of the Colonial. Now the alley between the Majestic and Colonial at the time was, lets say less than level, maybe even a wee bit concaved at the center, and convexed at the edges. They teamsters had unloaded the 8 sections of the barricade weighting 2 tons each (they had to re-enforce the stage in the colonial for this show) from the trucks and had placed them against the back wall of the Colonial next tot he loading elevator. After a few minutes of looking at monitors in the video truck, I started walking back to the Majestic stage door, keeping clear of the giant metal death traps standing along the edge of the alley against the wall. The head guy for the teamsters at the time was known as Matches, a surely older gentleman who was well know to have no patience for the Emerson students, and would often scream "what the hell are you doing in MY alley" at us as we walked to the stage door from the street. As I round the back corner of the Majestic, I can see Matches directing several guys with more scenery or lighting coming off a truck. And then as I am about half way to the stage door, and in the middle of the alley on the hi-spot of the concaved section, I feel a swift breeze to my left, and then a ginormous crash as one of the section of barricade comes tipping over from the wall of the Colonial. when the dust settles the top edge of the barricade is 12 inches from my feet. Everyone has heard and seen what happened. Matches is now only feet in front of me, looking concerned and staring into my eyes. He speaks softly, warmly, unlike anything I had every seen from this man previously. He asks if I am alright. After finding my voice I squeak "Yes". Matches expresses a slight smile. I am revealed. And with one more look, his face turns to stone and he screams like a drill sargent "WHAT THE F!@K ARE YOU DOING IN MY ALLEY!"

moral of the story?


Don't use tie line to keep a 2 ton set piece leaning against a wall in an alley.


and scene......
 
Back to the question of tie line strength... a request for information from a supplier was unanswered. I did some searching around and all I've found is this one site which includes the phrase "With 80lbs of test strength,..." I understand "test strength" is generally synonymous with "tensile test strength" which is generally synonymous with "ultimate tensile strength," and is commonly in the neighborhood of the "ultimate breaking strength" when you're talking about ductile materials. If you applied a common 8:1 design factor used for unpredictable applications in our industry you would not want to exceed 10lbs on a single strand of tie line. You might reduce that further factoring in any knots tied. I think some practical destructive testing might be in order...

SGT Knots Tie Line.jpg
 

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