Sub on a stand vs sub on the floor

dnathan

Active Member
I'm considering a wireless sub to keep the sound pressure down on the stage. I'm thinking about either a wireless sub against a side wall or on the ground in the center of the room. Which would have a cleaner sound? My PA is a JBL EON One Pro (array). I'm a solo performer with bad tinnitus.
 
Do you already have a sub and are trying to add more to make an array and reduce low-end SPL on stage?

If you currently have zero subs, adding a sub will only increase onstage SPL as subs tend to radiate omni-directionally. You need multiple elements to steer an array. Are you trying to add in a sub for monitoring because you run your JBL Eon One Pro array too hot in an attempt to get better LF information when you're onstage?
 
If you want to reduce the sound pressure of the sub against your (the performer's) ears, my first thought would be to put it in the middle of the audience ... they will hear/feel it best, and their bodies will absorb some of the waves so you don't have to take the brunt of them. You can probably also turn down the gain some as well.
 
The EON One Pro has an integrated bass module and its own mixer built in. The specs claim it goes down to 37 Hz (-10 dB) which is reasonably deep without a sub.

The problem is, there's no way to connect a sub to the system and high pass the main speakers, if you are using the internal mixer. Without a high pass filter, you'll have the mains trying to produce deep bass along with the sub, which would be a sonic mess. These speakers are for doing simple gigs, at modest levels, in a very small package, nothing more.

Perhaps a better approach for your tinnitus would be to get musician's ear plugs. There are custom molded ear plugs that attenuate sound with a controlled, flat spectrum, so you can still hear accurately. Another idea would be to use in-ear monitors, so you can adjust the volume of what you hear without affecting the sound from the mains.
 
Do you use a monitor or in ears on stage? If so, perhaps you are experiencing some unwanted coupling of the low end between your main array and stage reference. The answer to that would be to reverse phase of your stage mix. Solving that would depend the specifics of your system and how you plug things in. Do you use a mixer to mix your inputs or or the onboard mixer on the EONs? Also, I wondering if latency would be an issue with a wireless sub.
 
The problem is, there's no way to connect a sub to the system and high pass the main speakers, if you are using the internal mixer. Without a high pass filter, you'll have the mains trying to produce deep bass along with the sub, which would be a sonic mess. These speakers are for doing simple gigs, at modest levels, in a very small package, nothing more.

But you could pop a feed out from the monitoring output RCA's and let the internal LPF on whatever sub is purchased handle the crossover that way.

Great comments guys. Per FMEng, maybe the best thing would be to add a second one, and have them on both sides, say 15 ft apart.

No no no, I don't want to speak for @FMEng BUT this is the definition of power alley. If you want less LF onstage two subwoofers is not better than one in most instances. SS Minnow is on the right path with talking about stage monitoring - but reversing phase isn't the panacea it is on Star Trek as a phase reverse is either 180 or not. In this instance a 3rd sub (assuming both bass modules on the Eon System are present) would need both polarity, delay, and amplitude control in order to steer the LF, things you aren't getting with your Eon's built-in mixer.

I think you're the prime candidate for some form of IEM and you could do this totally wired on the cheap from the monitoring outs of your Eon. This way the audience can get what they need from the PA and you get sweet sweet isolation. If you need bass feedback and you sit during your music making I'd look at adding a Buttkicker - I use these dudes all the time in orchestra pits on rock shows, where we need to super watch our SPL in the bit, but our musicians need the things a rock musician would get during a show.
 
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Back in the day, I was a trial by fire type of audio guy. I learned the hard way but also had the opportunity to learn from some of the best. While honing my audio skill in the live environment, understanding the physics of sound became an essential. Running 5 monitor mixes from FOH required the understanding of how the vibe on stage meshed with what was happening in the mains. How to manipulate the audio structure of the venue, especially in small venues is an art, in my opinion. The smaller the venue, the more you have to know how to set up your PA creatively as to not block the path to the bathrooms or waitress station, etc... You then have to understand what the stage and house sound are doing when your full spectrum of your performance is on, as well as knowing what your EON system is capable of. Whether I did a single or multiple stage monitor mixes, either from side of stage or from FOH, I always went through my same routine of listening to each mix individually, then all the mixes on stage together, then the whole stage along with the house. I would do this with a common track, not 'check 1-2...',. It needs to be full range stuff. For me, Thomas Dolby did the trick. With both the House and Stage playing the same thing, I was able to hear/feel the entire system together and filter out things that were reflecting or resonating on stage. Sometimes, flipping the sidefills out of phase would clear things up just like that. Other times not so much. SOrry for the babble. I have had a few green beers. Bottom line is that it will not the same at every gig so.... Don't get me started.... Check....
 
Back in the day, I was a trial by fire type of audio guy. I learned the hard way but also had the opportunity to learn from some of the best. While honing my audio skill in the live environment, understanding the physics of sound became an essential. Running 5 monitor mixes from FOH required the understanding of how the vibe on stage meshed with what was happening in the mains. How to manipulate the audio structure of the venue, especially in small venues is an art, in my opinion. The smaller the venue, the more you have to know how to set up your PA creatively as to not block the path to the bathrooms or waitress station, etc... You then have to understand what the stage and house sound are doing when your full spectrum of your performance is on, as well as knowing what your EON system is capable of. Whether I did a single or multiple stage monitor mixes, either from side of stage or from FOH, I always went through my same routine of listening to each mix individually, then all the mixes on stage together, then the whole stage along with the house. I would do this with a common track, not 'check 1-2...',. It needs to be full range stuff. For me, Thomas Dolby did the trick. With both the House and Stage playing the same thing, I was able to hear/feel the entire system together and filter out things that were reflecting or resonating on stage. Sometimes, flipping the sidefills out of phase would clear things up just like that. Other times not so much. SOrry for the babble. I have had a few green beers. Bottom line is that it will not the same at every gig so.... Don't get me started.... Check....
@SS Minnow When you posted: "Don't get me started.... Check...."
Did you mean Check, one, two OR I've had enough green beer; Please bring my check!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
Back in the day, I was a trial by fire type of audio guy. I learned the hard way but also had the opportunity to learn from some of the best. While honing my audio skill in the live environment, understanding the physics of sound became an essential.

With both the House and Stage playing the same thing, I was able to hear/feel the entire system together and filter out things that were reflecting or resonating on stage. Sometimes, flipping the sidefills out of phase would clear things up just like that. Other times not so much. SOrry for the babble. I have had a few green beers. Bottom line is that it will not the same at every gig so.... Don't get me started.... Check....

We've come a long way from the days where a lot of audio was mysterious, no longer are ghosts in the system an allowable answer. The joke I make with a lot of designers when I'm working on musicals is that the Phase Flip button is essentially a "magic lottery" button. You know exactly the moments you need to press it (ie using 2 different brand of lav and need to unify polarity across the bunch). If you're truly questioning if the phase button is the button to press in a given time, 99 times out of 100 it isn't, but the 1 time it works its going to feel an awful lot like magic.

It's now within most technicians reach to be able to quantify the environment they are working in, and use that science to figure out what's going on. I don't mean to be rude or anything - It's just that I used to have this conversation like twice a week when I was on tour. Locals would see me pulling out a Smaart rig to time and tune my rig and would get on a high horse letting me know that in the past you either had the gift of making good sound or you didn't and they didn't need my fancy computers. If you want to think about it a little funny, timing a system is essentially an adjustable phase shift as opposed to hard on/off and if you start from a good place you don't need to use the axe swing of a phase flip button to fix things.

Things like the X32 have democratized the toolkit and brought a lot of truly great features to the masses, but now it's time to get folks up to speed on the actual physics of timing and tuning and understanding what they are playing with. You don't always get all the tools on every gig, but knowing how to do the big stuff lets you properly diagnose and triage the small stuff. It doesn't take that long to demystify a lot of audio, it just takes practice and exposure. My usual thinking is that if lighting people knew how easy audio actually was they'd be rushing over to work with us and get that brainy audio pay bump!
 
I’ll
A sub in your hand beats a sub on a stand, especially when you're hungry.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
That is right up there with "A bad day giggin' is better than a good day in prison".... FYI- Be shure to check your state and local 'Stand Your Sub' laws, as you do not want to catch an unlawful resonation violation. -30db in the hole....
 
If you want to reduce the sound pressure of the sub against your (the performer's) ears, my first thought would be to put it in the middle of the audience ... they will hear/feel it best, and their bodies will absorb some of the waves so you don't have to take the brunt of them. You can probably also turn down the gain some as well.
Actually ... not a good idea, because you will be far out of time alignment between the sub and rest of system.
 
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The EON One Pro has an integrated bass module and its own mixer built in. The specs claim it goes down to 37 Hz (-10 dB) which is reasonably deep without a sub.

The problem is, there's no way to connect a sub to the system and high pass the main speakers, if you are using the internal mixer. Without a high pass filter, you'll have the mains trying to produce deep bass along with the sub, which would be a sonic mess. These speakers are for doing simple gigs, at modest levels, in a very small package, nothing more.

Perhaps a better approach for your tinnitus would be to get musician's ear plugs. There are custom molded ear plugs that attenuate sound with a controlled, flat spectrum, so you can still hear accurately. Another idea would be to use in-ear monitors, so you can adjust the volume of what you hear without affecting the sound from the mains.
IEMs also help by blocking acoustic energy to your eardrums. But to hear or converse with the audience, you will likely need an ambience mic that you toggle off when playing and on when bantering or taking requests.
 

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