Subs VS Cues

[gafftaper]

Just want to point out that when I argue for cues I'm talking about lighting theater events. For music events I would say you should learn to busk from subs.

Chicken you said something about "double tapping into a dimmer"... what do you mean by that? Pressing go twice accidentally?
If so my counter argument would be you can just as easily bring up the wrong submaster.

 

[ChickenLive]

basically, the board somehow records two signals into one dimmer and it can overload that one dimmer. Something like if you record a cue using both subs and dimmers at the same time or something. Not quite sure if this is possible and what it would do.

 

[icewolf08]

basically, the board somehow records two signals into one dimmer and it can overload that one dimmer. Something like if you record a cue using both subs and dimmers at the same time or something. Not quite sure if this is possible and what it would do.

Consoles operate in one of two ways, either HTP or LTP.

HTP is Highest takes Precedence. This means that the highest level for a channel is what is sent out. So if you have channel 2 at 50% in SUB1 and you have channel 2 at 80% in SUB2 and you bring both subs up channel 2 would go to 80% and there would be no conflict.

LTP is Last (or Latest) take Precedence. This means that the last command that was given to a channel is what the channel does. In an LTP situation with the same levels and subs as in my example above if you brought up SUB2 first and then SUB1 second, channel 2 would go to 50% since that is the last command that was given to the channel.

The confusing thing is that every console has different HTP/LTP rules, and they use both methods to figure out channel levels depending on the situation. As I don't know what console you have I can't give you any examples, but it is probably in the manual.

As for you subs v. cues, I agree with a lot that has been said. There are some situations where having looks on subs is just easier. Shows with little rehearsal time, one-offs, etc. Or shows that change from night to night like improv or other comedy shows. However, if you are doing a theatrical production, cues are the way to go.

1. Put up dimmers to how the scene should look or groups of similar/specific lights
2. Record that into a sub (preferably on a clean page and in order)
3. tape/label subs if using for a bigger/complicated show
4. Go through script and make cues from prerecorded subs
5. Figure out timing and any extras
6. Run it threw with a rehearsal and make tweaks
7. Use just a script and the Go button for performances

What you describe here is pretty close to a "normal" way to do things. Create a look and record as a sub and then record those into cues is not bad. Essentially you are making groups that are accessible via fader.

Many designers who come through my theatre will hand me a group list. I plug all of that info into the console so that the LD can then call for groups as opposed to ranges of channels. Groups can contain channels at different levels, and when you bring the group up it will scale all the levels. The biggest difference between a sub and a group is that subs usually have a fader associated with them, but on the basic level they function the same. The nice thing about groups though, is that if you change the level of a channel in a group it will retroactively change the level of that channel anywhere, in any cue in which that group was called, very useful.

So, if you feel like you want to do more programming via the keypad, maybe try recording groups instead of subs. As gafftaper said, you may make groups like: blue front light, red back light, amber side light, etc. and then use those groups to build cues from. You can also record entire looks to groups. It is worth, as has been said, bringing this up to your teacher in a calm and professional manner.

 

[JD]

basically, the board somehow records two signals into one dimmer and it can overload that one dimmer. Something like if you record a cue using both subs and dimmers at the same time or something. Not quite sure if this is possible and what it would do.

On the subject of HTP and LTP, there is a general rule of thumb. With stage lights you would want HTP, and with movers you would want LTP. Most boards (even the cheep Elation scene setter I have) allow you to set this feature.
The reason you want LTP on a mover board is that you want the movers to get specific values (the new ones) as compared to sliding through a range of values. With stage lights, you may want to manually fade in a second scene, or even add it to the first so HTP works best. You can guess the results of doing that with mover channels involved! (Except maybe intensity.)
LTP can be a headache if you are running stage lights. You may have a light in a scene set at 30% and need to raise the value to 90%, so you grab the channel slider and as soon as you move it, it of course drops to 0%.

 

[porkchop]

The nice thing about groups though, is that if you change the level of a channel in a group it will retroactively change the level of that channel anywhere, in any cue in which that group was called, very useful

I can definitely see a lot uses for that but what happens if you happen to want to raise a few of the group's levels for that particular scene and not the rest of the cues the group is in?

LTP can be a headache if you are running stage lights. You may have a light in a scene set at 30% and need to raise the value to 90%, so you grab the channel slider and as soon as you move it, it of course drops to 0%.

That's why you grab the channel from the keypad and use the scroll wheel. At least that was what we did on our LTP board in high school. Never had a problem with unintended channels going to black.

 

[JD]

That's why you grab the channel from the keypad and use the scroll wheel. At least that was what we did on our LTP board in high school. Never had a problem with unintended channels going to black.

That, of course assumes that the board has a keypad and a scroll wheel

And thus the greatest quagmire in the lighting industry, every board is different! Much like computers, it is more important to learn the strategy than the hardware, as the strategy is transportable and will help you in the future. Chances are the hardware is mounted to a table and will be left behind when you leave.

 

[derekleffew]

Consoles operate in one of two ways, either HTP or LTP. ...

MOST, if not all, of the better consoles allow for both. Generally, one sets conventional dimmers and other intensity parameters to HTP, and all non-intensity parameters to LTP.

From the Express(ion) manual, under "Channel Attributes":
LTP
Designates whether a channel obeys the Highest Takes Precedence
(HTP) or the Latest Takes Precedence (LTP) convention. HTP channels
have no entry in the LTP field of the display, while LTP channels
are identified by a “y” in the LTP field.

Back to topic. It's fine to use your subs and/or groups as building blocks to write your cues, then use them during the show if something needs to be adjusted on the fly. But additive subs can only make things brighter, and it would be silly to have an inhibitive sub for every system, thus I find groups are a more useful feature. Some consoles allow the user to type " n [@] level," treating the contents of the sub as a group. On an Expression, which doesn't do that, I usually make my groups match my subs.

Putting LQ1 on Sub1, LQ2 on Sub2, etc., just doesn't make any logical sense to me, and will definitely become impractical once you begin using moving lights. ChickenLive, I think the issue may be your approach. Stating "...seem to have this fight with our theater teacher," indicates a problem in communication and diplomacy.

This guy here seems to have nailed the issue exactly, most likely as he has been a high school theatre teacher himself, and I shutter [sic] to think what else he taught his students.

...Why does you teacher not want you to use cues?
My guess is she doesn't understand how the board works herself. She's afraid you are going to get in over your head and mess up something and she won't know how to fix it. So it's easier to tell you to just run it from subs because that's what level she is comfortable with. Don't argue with her about it and be careful not to make her feel insignificant in her knowledge. Instead reason with her that you have a very powerful light board capable of so much more than subs and you want to learn how to program like professional lighting designers do. Appeal to her sense of allowing you the opportunity to learn. Also tell her that you've found a forum on the internet filled with Express experts... including several from the factory who will support you if you have problems. ...

 

[icewolf08]

I can definitely see a lot uses for that but what happens if you happen to want to raise a few of the group's levels for that particular scene and not the rest of the cues the group is in?

Then you modify the channel levels in the cue, not in the group.

 

[SteveB]

Some consoles allow the user to type " _{n [@] level," treating the contents of the sub as a group. On an Expression, which doesn't do that, I usually make my groups match my subs.)}

<sub>The Expression/Express key stroke for using a Sub as a Group is "Group", "Sub" "X", "@", "Level/Full/XX".

This is useful from the RFU to bring up the recorded look of a Sub, among other things.

Steve B.</sub>

 

[derekleffew]

Thanks, SteveB, you just saved me from recording everything twice, which I've been doing for years.

 

[SteveB]

Thanks, SteveB, you just saved me from recording everything twice, which I've been doing for years.

Your very welcome. It's only something I learned a year ago after 9 years on an Express.

Another one recently taught to me from a very talented LD for the Richmond Ballet, Jim French.

My usual record process:

- Channel (plus pressing the Channel button if not already pressed) button - X - Full

- Record Cue, 1, Time, 5, Enter, Enter (5 up and down)

- Cue, 1, Go A/B fader, run the levers down and up

- Release

OR:

- Channel 1 Full

- Cue, 1, Record, Time 5, Enter, Enter

- Go A/B, run faders.

- Release.

Saves a few key strokes

SB

 

[ChickenLive]

Thanks for the input. If the issue ever comes up again, I will try and reason with her as suggested, but for now, I will stick with cues and learning new things unless she says otherwise.

Though, an example today of how cues would have been nice, had we the time. In class, we had to create a design where the lights are supposed to change the mood as a person walks to different parts of the stage. My group put the lights/scene to a short song. We really didn't have the time or workability to get it as good as it could have looked (3 groups trying to do 3 different scenes at the same time). I could have set the cues to do things exactly in time with the music and it would have looked better/smoother than just doing it by ear and whim. Though I didn't get to do everything I wanted, I still think our group did the best.

Oh, and if you are wondering, we have an Express 46/98 and use dimmers 1-108. So, I know there is potential, but my teacher just doesn't teach much past subs and general "how lighting works." Though, she will explain more about some things if they arise or I ask. As for her full knowledge of the board, I'm not sure. I can kind of see her concern because apparently they have had to completely reset the board a couple of times for some reason. Anyone have any idea what things might mess the board up bad enough to reset the thing? She does a good job, but I just don't always agree with all her methods (especially on set design and cues).

 

[JD]

In class, we had to create a design where the lights are supposed to change the mood as a person walks to different parts of the stage.

Yes, lighting is a language that speaks to the mind through the visual cortex. In some ways, it can effect emotion better then verbal communication. Much like music, it is a different avenue of the senses that can evoke emotion both on conscious and subconscious levels. Never underestimate the importance of good lighting design.

 

[gafftaper]

Oh, and if you are wondering, we have an Express 46/98 and use dimmers 1-108. So, I know there is potential, but my teacher just doesn't teach much past subs and general "how lighting works." Though, she will explain more about some things if they arise or I ask. As for her full knowledge of the board, I'm not sure. I can kind of see her concern because apparently they have had to completely reset the board a couple of times for some reason. Anyone have any idea what things might mess the board up bad enough to reset the thing? She does a good job, but I just don't always agree with all her methods (especially on set design and cues).

About the only thing that can "go wrong" on an Express is if someone messes with the patch. To the untrained person this can be disaster as lights simply won't turn on when you tell them too or the wrong lights turn on. Now to the professional, changing the patch is standard procedure to help reorganize the lights into a more logical layout on the board. I haven't used an express in about 6 years but I believe you just press "patch" and select "reset 1 to 1" from the soft keys at the bottom. It might also be in the setup menu. It's no big deal to reset.

The idea that a dimmer can somehow get jammed with too much information from using the go button is nonsense... just be nice to her when you tell her that. Now you can confuse a dimmer if you have two sources of DMX signal (for example two light boards) sending out different information and you'll get weird flashing. But I believe it's pretty much impossible to mess up a dimmer with just a single Express in the system (maybe if you built a really weird patch).

This guy here seems to have nailed the issue exactly, most likely as he has been a high school theatre teacher himself, and I shutter [sic] to think what else he taught his students.

I taught 9th and 10th grade World History plus Speech a couple times. I had this great project for my 9th grade class where instead of spending weeks lecturing on the basics of geography, economics, governments, etc... I had students create their own country. They had to create a new land mass on a map of the Earth. From that they explained the climate of their country, used geography terminology, developed their own economy, government, religion, flag, national anthem, social customs... etc. Everything they did earned them points toward their military budget. What they didn't know is the final day of the project we were going to play Twister. Countries with the most money were able to purchase more soldiers (i.e. turns) to battle in Twister. When a country's last soldier was defeated at Twister they were conquered. It was a lot of fun and I was a cool history teacher.

 

[porkchop]

I taught 9th and 10th grade World History plus Speech a couple times. I had this great project for my 9th grade class where instead of spending weeks lecturing on the basics of geography, economics, governments, etc... I had students create their own country. They had to create a new land mass on a map of the Earth. From that they explained the climate of their country, used geography terminology, developed their own economy, government, religion, flag, national anthem, social customs... etc. Everything they did earned them points toward their military budget. What they didn't know is the final day of the project we were going to play Twister. Countries with the most money were able to purchase more soldiers (i.e. turns) to battle in Twister. When a country's last soldier was defeated at Twister they were conquered. It was a lot of fun and I was a cool history teacher.

One word: Awesome

 

[Grog12]

About the only thing that can "go wrong" on an Express is if someone messes with the patch. To the untrained person this can be disaster as lights simply won't turn on when you tell them too or the wrong lights turn on. Now to the professional, changing the patch is standard procedure to help reorganize the lights into a more logical layout on the board. I haven't used an express in about 6 years but I believe you just press "patch" and select "reset 1 to 1" from the soft keys at the bottom. It might also be in the setup menu. It's no big deal to reset.
The idea that a dimmer can somehow get jammed with too much information from using the go button is nonsense... just be nice to her when you tell her that. Now you can confuse a dimmer if you have two sources of DMX signal (for example two light boards) sending out different information and you'll get weird flashing. But I believe it's pretty much impossible to mess up a dimmer with just a single Express in the system (maybe if you built a really weird patch).

In ten years I've never seen anything more drastic than the disk drive going out happen to an Express. With the newer software that allows for moving light patch you might have to do a background override every now and then but beyond that its a solid, solid board. It sounds like someone forgot to bring up the grand master and decided to "reset" (nudge nudge wink wink) the console.

Granted it may need a deep cleaning done...but it takes a lot to get the system bogged down to that point.

To reset patch 1-1 you go into the Setup menu press 4 [enter] to go into the Clear Functions and you'll find Reset Patch 1-1.