Suggestions for designing a lighting control system

[lightingjada]

Hi Everyone

I've designed lighting plan for a sport stadium but would like some advice on lighting control system for installation.
I have no knowledge/real world experience regarding lighting control equipment but I've looked some resources regarding DMX-RDM, Art-Net & Wi-Fi.
From all I've read I already know that I want to use art-net/any other networking protocol (I do have data networking knowledge) to control everything.
I have six light poles with each having a max of 36 led luminaires at max. height of 50m.
The light controller would have to be placed close to pole A.

E--335ft--D--335ft--C
|-----------------------|
453ft------------------453ft
|-----------------------|
F--335ft--A--335ft--B

But it still not clear to me how best to split up lighting system based on real world limitations of the DMX cables, splitter/merger and light controllers/consoles taken in account the distances that have to be covered.
Can you give me any suggestions how to set this up?(amount/type)

 

[Rob]

To get from pole A to D you have to go 1123'.
From this article on DMX wiring:

• Maximum cable length is 1,800 ft when used for DMX only
• Maximum cable length for systems incorporating RDM is 1000 ft due to timing constraints

I might suggest you put a 2-port gateway at B with one port feeding B & C and the other feeding D direct. You'd run Ethernet from A to B (it's 10' longer than suggested for Cat5, but at 10MBs, I think you'd be OK). Use another 2-port gateway at A with one port feeding A & F and the other feeding E direct. That way you could use RDM for all lights in the system.

You could also add a repeater at the base of the poles and go around them. Just don't exceed more than 5 repeaters if using RDM (rule of thumb).

I've included some links to our products, but there are many people that make equivalent devices.

 

[lightingjada]

You'd run Ethernet from A to B (it's 10' longer than suggested for Cat5, but at 10MBs, I think you'd be OK).

Hi Rob thanks for the quick reply (especially the links to the products are very helpful).
Regarding the use of ethernet cable for DMX are there any known improvements /future proofing benefits over using newer the CAt6/Cat6a over Cat5.

 

[SteveB]

Without diving in to the whole question, what’s the purpose of lighting control ?. What fixtures are you installing that needs anything more then On/Off functionality ?. Are these color changing fixtures?, moving ?. Seems a basic architectural control such as ETC’s Paradigm might serve you. The control choice then drives the data infrastructure

 

[lightingjada]

Without diving in to the whole question, what’s the purpose of lighting control ?. What fixtures are you installing that needs anything more then On/Off functionality ?. Are these color changing fixtures?, moving ?. Seems a basic architectural control such as ETC’s Paradigm might serve you. The control choice then drives the data infrastructure

The control is intended for led fixtures lighting the pitch. These are not color changing leds and they will not be moving. But there will be standard light plans for training,club& national (European) football. The ability for on the fly light scenes for any other events needs to be possible. ETC Paradigm?? That is not a term I have come during my search accross.

 

[SteveB]

The control is intended for led fixtures lighting the pitch. These are not color changing leds and they will not be moving. But there will be standard light plans for training,club& national (European) football. The ability for on the fly light scenes for any other events needs to be possible. ETC Paradigm?? That is not a term I have come during my search accross.

ETC is the 800 lbs gorilla in the entertainment market for static lighting fixtures, power distribution (dimmers and relays systems) as well as the "theatrical" control systems. Paradigm is one of their architectural systems. It's a very common control system designed for hotels, ballrooms and theatrical/entertainment venues as the basic portion of a control system for dimming and power. More sophisticated control is provided by the theatrical/entertainment controllers made by ETC, MA Lighting, Strand and others.

The Paradigm system is typically used for permanent installs where you need control over user access, timed event functions, etc... Good stuff, very reliable and ETC has the best reputation in the business for technical support. They do big or small projects. Disney Japan, Disney France, Mormon Church facility in SLC (4,000 dimmers ?), etc....

http://www.etcconnect.com/Products/Architectural-Systems/Paradigm/

A typical use for your application could be a control system that allows different levels of user access via code activated touch screens or simple button boxes, than activates power to the LED's and controls intensities.

I would think at this point a consultant whose conversant in these systems might be helpful to you, or a vendor that can provide system design and integration. Barbizon (out of NYC and other locations), Vincent Lighting, Holzmueller are 3 companies that come to mind and have great reputations.

Bunch of conultantants here on CB, Bill Connor, Mike Nicolai come to mind.

https://www.barbizon.com/
https://www.vls.com/
http://www.holzmueller.com/

 

[Rob]

...benefits over using newer the CAt6/Cat6a over Cat5.

At the bandwidth sACN or ArtNet uses, there are no additional benefits to using higher spec Ethernet wire.

 

[Calc]

Regarding the use of ethernet cable for DMX are there any known improvements /future proofing benefits over using newer the CAt6/Cat6a over Cat5.

At the bandwidth sACN or ArtNet uses, there are no additional benefits to using higher spec Ethernet wire.

Just to clarify, are you talking about converting your DMX to one of the other protocols and back (like Rob mentions above), or using CAT6 cable terminated in 5-pin DMX ends? Either could work, but it's important to clarify which method you're referring to.

 

[TNasty]

You mentioned that you were considering ArtNet (or one of its likes). I'm not very experienced with these standards, but I do have quite a bit of network experience from working with my old school's IT department.

Considering that standards such as ArtNet are a regular LAN like what you'd find at home or a business, but with data for lights, you'll use regular old networking equipment. Not a big problem- there's plenty of options for getting data from point A to B, or A to C and D, etc...

The problem here is that CAT5, 5E, and 6 are only rated to carry signal for just over 300ft. You'd be pushing the limits of the standard. That said, there's really two or three routes I'd suggest going if you're looking at a UDP based standard.

1. Using point to point wireless systems. I'm not talking "Wi-Fi Extenders" here. I'm talking about something like this. The good thing about these Ubiquiti devices is that they use PoE, which means you'll only have to run one cable to each unit, instead of power and Ethernet. These are great for something like a stadium where you've likely got a perfectly clear shot from unit to unit. Only problem is that it gets expensive real fast, especially since it seems what you really need is point to multi point.

2. Running fiber. It sounds expensive, mainly because it is. You're not only going to need your fiber, but also equipment that'll handle it. On top of that, if it's not being run through an existing structure (IE along a drop ceiling), you're going to need to put it in some sort of conduit, unless you find burial grade fiber you're willing to pay for. This system is great because you'll get full speed, but I doubt that you'll saturate a one of the wireless connections with lighting data.​

3. I'm hesitant to mention this option, because it's more or less the "easy way out" in this scenario. You could get powered Ethernet repeaters, and idealistically put them around the midpoint of your long runs. Doesn't sound like a bad idea at first, but there's a few problems with this. If they're not going in a "indoors" location, your going to need to likely put them in a weather resistant/proof enclosure. On top of that, you're going to need to figure out how you're going to power them, considering they're not going at the base of the posts. I'd suggest not going this specific route for those reasons.​

Personally I would suggest the first option if you need to potentially take the stuff down and go somewhere else, or you can't dig deep enough to safely bury the fiber. In my opinion, fiber is the best route (not for you specifically, but it's the one that you should do for a permanent install and you have the money) for this case. Not only should it be no-muss-no-fuss once it's installed and connected, but allows you to push a lot more data if you ever needed to.

If you've got more specifics on the plans, along with a rough budget, that would help greatly with pointing you towards the right option and equipment to do the job right.

UPDATE: I would advise against the wireless solution, seeing you are not in the US. Only if you are familiar with your local wireless signal regulations would I consider the PTP "beam" idea.

 

[Chris15]

Global warning, the OP is in Suriname, not North America, the available product range, regulatory environment and labour pool may vary...

 

[SteveB]

Global warning, the OP is in Suriname, not North America, the available product range, regulatory environment and labour pool may vary...

Good catch

 

[TNasty]

Global warning, the OP is in Suriname, not North America, the available product range, regulatory environment and labour pool may vary...

Good point. If had noticed this, I would have probably left out the wireless idea. I've updated my prior post to reflect the potential legal concern with the PTP solution.

 

[lightingjada]

At the bandwidth sACN or ArtNet uses, there are no additional benefits to using higher spec Ethernet wire.

Thanx Rob that's good to know.

Just to clarify, are you talking about converting your DMX to one of the other protocols and back (like Rob mentions above), or using CAT6 cable terminated in 5-pin DMX ends? Either could work, but it's important to clarify which method you're referring to.

The idea to use DMX over an IP network via Art-net. Considering my own existing networking knowledge, the easy availability of networking equipment & cables that seemed like a pretty good solution to me.

You mentioned that you were considering ArtNet (or one of its likes). I'm not very experienced with these standards, but I do have quite a bit of network experience from working with my old school's IT department.

Considering that standards such as ArtNet are a regular LAN like what you'd find at home or a business, but with data for lights, you'll use regular old networking equipment. Not a big problem- there's plenty of options for getting data from point A to B, or A to C and D, etc...

The problem here is that CAT5, 5E, and 6 are only rated to carry signal for just over 300ft. You'd be pushing the limits of the standard. That said, there's really two or three routes I'd suggest going if you're looking at a UDP based standard.

1. Using point to point wireless systems. I'm not talking "Wi-Fi Extenders" here. I'm talking about something like this. The good thing about these Ubiquiti devices is that they use PoE, which means you'll only have to run one cable to each unit, instead of power and Ethernet. These are great for something like a stadium where you've likely got a perfectly clear shot from unit to unit. Only problem is that it gets expensive real fast, especially since it seems what you really need is point to multi point.

2. Running fiber. It sounds expensive, mainly because it is. You're not only going to need your fiber, but also equipment that'll handle it. On top of that, if it's not being run through an existing structure (IE along a drop ceiling), you're going to need to put it in some sort of conduit, unless you find burial grade fiber you're willing to pay for. This system is great because you'll get full speed, but I doubt that you'll saturate a one of the wireless connections with lighting data.​

3. I'm hesitant to mention this option, because it's more or less the "easy way out" in this scenario. You could get powered Ethernet repeaters, and idealistically put them around the midpoint of your long runs. Doesn't sound like a bad idea at first, but there's a few problems with this. If they're not going in a "indoors" location, your going to need to likely put them in a weather resistant/proof enclosure. On top of that, you're going to need to figure out how you're going to power them, considering they're not going at the base of the posts. I'd suggest not going this specific route for those reasons.​

Personally I would suggest the first option if you need to potentially take the stuff down and go somewhere else, or you can't dig deep enough to safely bury the fiber. In my opinion, fiber is the best route (not for you specifically, but it's the one that you should do for a permanent install and you have the money) for this case. Not only should it be no-muss-no-fuss once it's installed and connected, but allows you to push a lot more data if you ever needed to.

If you've got more specifics on the plans, along with a rough budget, that would help greatly with pointing you towards the right option and equipment to do the job right.

UPDATE: I would advise against the wireless solution, seeing you are not in the US. Only if you are familiar with your local wireless signal regulations would I consider the PTP "beam" idea.

Just to clarify, are you talking about converting your DMX to one of the other protocols and back (like Rob mentions above), or using CAT6 cable terminated in 5-pin DMX ends? Either could work, but it's important to clarify which method you're referring to.

First up regarding the budget. The project is in the design/cost estimation stage I wanna know what my options are regarding light control and what they might potentially cost.

Oke so there is Cat cable limit of 300ft when using lighting control over lan. I was afraid of that. Out my own personal experience than I totally agree option 3 is a no go.

Based on the rough cost estimate of cable en active equipment for option 1 and 2 would just running standard DMX be cheaper?

Thanks in advance

 

[TuckerD]

At the bandwidth sACN or ArtNet uses, there are no additional benefits to using higher spec Ethernet wire.

Due to the distances involved do you think it's beneficial to call for a fiber trunk or interconnect Rob? In theory, 100BASE-TX can be to around or past 100m. I think in our lab we haven't had a problem with slightly longer distances. You could always drop it down to 10BASE-TX, which with modern switches would give enough distance, and high enough bandwidth for ~40 universes of sACN control.

More and more I am hearing people talk about lighting networks that aren't dedicated, and instead are just running on the building's networking hardware in a separate VLAN with a fiber between network switches.