"Suicide Cable"

Can a "suicide cord" be used?

  • No way, no how.

    Votes: 31 63.3%
  • Yes, but the cable must be immediately destroyed.

    Votes: 6 12.2%
  • Sure, but put warning labels on the cord to let people know that it shouldn't be touched.

    Votes: 3 6.1%
  • Use it, if someone doesn't know what it's for, then they should know better than to touch it.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • Other, please comment.

    Votes: 5 10.2%

  • Total voters
    49

renegadeblack

Active Member
I had an earlier post which was deemed unsafe, so I'm not going to link to the original article as it described in detail how to make such a cable.

I'm wondering what people's opinions are on a "suicide cable" is, we're talking male-to-male mains power here. Most likely used to go from a generator to a single circuit in a home during a power outage.

Let's assume that the wiring in the facility is the same throughout the entire circuit (in the original article it was mentioned that in some installations, it isn't the same gauge wire through the entire circuit, which sounds a bit fishy to me).

Let's also assume that there is some sort of circuit breaker on the line that will cut the power if too much current is drawn.

Lastly, we're also going to assume that any applicable mains breakers have also been cut so that we don't fry and kind linesmen trying to restore power.

(I just want to know purely for the circumstance of the cord, nothing else.)

Do you think that:

A) No way, no how.
B) Yes, but the cable must be immediately destroyed.
C) Sure, but put warning labels on the cord to let people know that it shouldn't be touched.
D) Use it, if someone doesn't know what it's for, then they should know better than to touch it.
E) Other.
 
It was my understanding the term for this type of cable was "WidowMaker"
I would recomend if any one ever comes across one of these remove it from service without question and remove at least one if not both connectors from the cable. in question.
 
When I was still living at home we had one of these cables just to from a generator outside. We would usually lose power at least once a month during the warmer months. When we had a power outage, we would flip the mains breaker for the house, unplug the 220v stick welder in the garage, hook this cable up to the welder plug, throw the cable through a window, go outside and hook it up to the generator and finally fire up the generator. It worked great. It allowed us to power both legs in our house, keep our fridge going, and allow for some lights to be on in the house, and allow our sewer "grinder pump" to still run. We could not run the AC, but we could survive without our plumbing backing up. I have also used these cables to feed power into a neighbors house from a generator.

We always kept our cable tied to our generator so it could not be mistaken for a regular cable.

Are these cables a great solution, no. However, do they allow you to keep hundreds or thousands of dollars of food from spoiling, your basement from flooding, your sewer from backing up, and water running? Yes. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
 
Lex Products came up with a safer way to do that with their power input panels. They are designed to allow feeds from generators directly into electrical systems. It's likely overkill for the standard home, but it operates on the same premise -- minus the whole fried chicken smell and electrocution and such.
 
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I think it largely depends on now controlled an area is involved -- your home with the generator, for example, is probably okay since you know what's going on. There are also Camlok turnarounds and various flavors of tees for use when inevitably the neutral and ground wires have to be turned around; these are also probably okay since we presume anyone working with the feeder knows what's going on.

A suicide cable should probably be clearly marked on both ends as well, most especially if it's of any length, where both ends might not always be in sight of each other.

But in general, especially in a relatively uncontrolled area (such as the theatre cable rack) I think it's a bad idea, too much chance of someone thinking it's a regular extension cord when it's not.
 
I think it's especially dangerous, controlled area or not. If you have a cable that, of every 3 years (1095 days), you might use once for two or three days, you have the 1092 days of the year that the cable might accidentally get used for something. By the time someone plugs it in at one end, without noticing that there's no female connector, the natural tendency when they get to the opposite end of the cable, 100' away, is to curiously pick up the connector and stare at it in a confused way. This is about when someone touches the hot lead and electrocutes themselves.

In a situation with regular use, you always have to worry that someone will grab the wrong cable for the wrong thing. With intermittent use, you'll simply forget that you have anything to worry about -- that's when it gets dangerous.

I had a service technician a couple years ago drop off some L5-20 to 2P&G adapters for our new install. For some reason, they had a brilliant idea to install six L5-20 circuits in an otherwise 2P&G house. Before I knew it, he already had them plugged into the circuits. Without even thinking about it, I went up to them, grabbed the connector, and looked at it funny. I immediately knew something was wrong with it, but couldn't place what. When I realized it was that it was a male to male adapter, I practically threw the thing to the ground, unplugged it, and handed it to the service tech. He had made six of these without realizing what he had done, and between his inattention and my curious demeanor, I'm very lucky to have not gotten hurt. Thank goodness I had not actually touched the pins on the 2P&G and that the circuits were at 0%. (@ 0% meaning I still could've gotten shocked given the nature of dimming sources, but I would've been able to walk away without needing to visit the ER.)

Just like nobody plans on spilling their coffee on the light console, no one ever plans on touching the energized connectors of a suicide cable. Yet a moment's inattention or curiosity can very quickly become the death of you.

I would never have a problem using a suicide cable when I remembered to worry about it being a male to male cable. It's when I forget to worry that I'd regret ever allowing myself to work with one.

Additional note: Marking the cable as a suicide cable is great, but labels fall off and when was the last time you so much as glanced at a the warning labels on store-bought extension cords? Having a suicide cable around, no matter what the pretenses, leaves too much risk riding on not enough risk prevention. There's no room to say "Well you should've looked at the label first," when the person is already twitching and seizuring on the ground from the electrical shock.
 
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It can be useful, but it needs to at the very least be marked very well and seperated.


Additional note: Marking the cable as a suicide cable is great, but labels fall off and when was the last time you so much as glanced at a the warning labels on store-bought extension cords? Having a suicide cable around, no matter what the pretenses, leaves too much risk riding on not enough risk prevention. There's no room to say "Well you should've looked at the label first," when the person is already twitching and seizuring on the ground from the electrical shock.

This would be a good application I think for some of those spare lockout tags and safety lockouts that are shoved in a desk drawer somewhere.
 
Any chance they make some form of lockable cover for cable plugs?

Like something made of durable plastic with a lock.

It's not a perfect solution, but if someone's adamant about making the cables, between the lockable covers and obnoxiously big tags beside them explaining that this is a suicide cable, it might not be that big a problem.
 
TheDonkey, If Amazon don't have it, you don't need it!

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Amazon.com: Lockout Plug Covers: Industrial & Scientific
 
I think it's especially dangerous, controlled area or not. If you have a cable that, of every 3 years (1095 days), you might use once for two or three days, you have the 1092 days of the year that the cable might accidentally get used for something.

I lived out in the middle of nowhere where power outages are a fact of life. Even in the rather large subdivision I lived in when I was younger with buried utilities we still lost power at least once, if not twice a month during storm season. We had one of these cables around my house during all of my childhood and I am still here today. If you keep the cable put away and marked it won't fall into the wrong hands. Also, if you let everyone know if your family "don't touch this", they won't. If they can't follow that simple instruction you should probably take all of the loose change and silverware out of the house as well because they could stick that in an outlet just as fast. I had plenty of stuff in the garage of my house that could have killed me as a kid such as solvents, welders, the occasional engine block, buckets of anti freeze, and my own father :rolleyes:. Having this cable around was no more dangerous then the stuff my friends and I used to play with (motorcycles, home made go carts, random guns, outboard motors, etc...)

Heres the thing....
These should never be used in a theatre. There is no reason to EVER have this cable in a theatre. They should also never be unplugged and energized. The cable should be hooked up on both sides before the generator gets turned on. This is the same way you use cam turn-arounds. No, using this cable is not NEC compliant, but it will keep your fridge/deep freeze from thawing.
 
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We had one of these cables around my house during all of my childhood and I am still here today. If you keep the cable put away and marked it won't fall into the wrong hands. Also, if you let everyone know if your family "don't touch this", they won't.

THIS.

I have a really hard time buying the argument that because *someone* out there is too stupid to use something *no one* should be able to use it. By this logic lets ban anything that can kill you, cars, beer, vending machines, the list goes on.

As Footer said, he keeps his, by his generator at home and this seems totally logical. Something that will terrify the tight wads of CB even more, we have a male 3 phase to 3 phase cable in the shop! Its used so we can power up a specific rack in the shop and everyone knows what it is for, same thing with the edison-> alligator clips turn around, people know what its for and no one is put at risk.

Are these cables okay to have and use, yes? Should they be tossed on a rack with all the other cables, no. A little due diligence is all you need.
 
I don't have any problem with rigged cables as long as the user knows how to make, use, label, and store them. However, I'm not sure I really understand what the point is or how it would be used. I'm picturing a male California connector going to a generator, and on the other end I'm holding another male California connector. What the hell would I plug it in to? I don't know enough about home electrical systems to know why I would need to tap into the mains with a male connector (is there really some sort of female connector somewhere?), but I would think if you needed backup power then you would just install a main inlet somewhere in your home. Cover it, keep it in a locked closet, and/or put a disconnect switch on it to keep it safe/de-energized when not needed. Sorry, I just don't see how this is any more useful than an extension cord with two female ends.
 
I'll put another vote in for getting a real transfer switch if this is set up for a generator. I'm pretty sure there is a provision in the code that requires them for something like that. (not an electrician speaking...)

Just like anything else, if you're and idiot you can kill yourself with just about anything. I'd be very careful if you make up a cable like this and where you use it.

I want to say we made up one of these for a rotating set in college. I don't remember the specifics, but both sides of the set had an outlet to plug in a lamp. We wanted the lamp controlled by the light board, so we just made up a male stage pin to edison cable. When we had to change the scene, unplug the cable, spin the set around, plug into the other outlet. The outlets were about across from each other in the stage wall, and wired direct from one to the other.
Upon looking back, yah it was probably dangerous, but the stage crew knew it would be off when turning the set around, and we were careful.

In general, warning labels and regulations do make things safer for those that are smart enough to read and follow them. And maybe it does save a few idiots from killing themselves if they see a big label. But mostly they're a big pain in the ass. Also, natural selection works both ways. If the idiots don't kill themselves off, they breed more idiots, and the population gets dumber over time.... :rolleyes:
 
I have a really hard time buying the argument that because *someone* out there is too stupid to use something *no one* should be able to use it. By this logic lets ban anything that can kill you, cars, beer, vending machines, the list goes on.

Something that will terrify the tight wads of CB even more, we have a male 3 phase to 3 phase cable in the shop! Its used so we can power up a specific rack in the shop and everyone knows what it is for...

I certainly agree with your first paragraph. But I'm not sure what kind of rack would have a female inlet. I'm sure you know something that I don't, so please explain, but it sounds like you have a rack that has the wrong inlet connector on it.
 
I want to say we made up one of these for a rotating set in college. I don't remember the specifics, but both sides of the set had an outlet to plug in a lamp. We wanted the lamp controlled by the light board, so we just made up a male stage pin to edison cable. When we had to change the scene, unplug the cable, spin the set around, plug into the other outlet. The outlets were about across from each other in the stage wall, and wired direct from one to the other.

Okay, now I see something that would benefit from a male/male cable. Thank you for the example. Although, I don't think I would ever consider using it in this case. With several people on stage while it's unplugged (and energized as I'm sure you didn't unpatch it from the dimmer rack) it just seems like a disaster waiting to happen.
 
NO WAY NOT EVER!!! IF YOU CREATE SUCH A CABLE YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW (Well electrical codes).
Such a cable is a multitude of deaths, fires and other potential accidents waiting to happen.

IF YOU EVER SEE A CABLE OR SETUP LIKE THIS DESTROY IT IMMEDIATELY!

I've actually been called to TWO people's houses to look at the aftermath from this exact sort of thing. It is DEATH INCARNATE.

There are several rules that MUST be followed that make this type of situation SO VERY WRONG. I know from the CEC, not the NEC so I'll paraphrase...

This makes me want to run out to my truck and pull out me CEC, however I will resist. Plus it's best to 'dummy it down'...

1) First of all, any connector that may be the source of line voltage MUST be FEMALE.

2) A transfer switch that prevents two sources of power from being able (at all) to be connected at the same time, must be used to prevent a connection between the sources.

3) Only listed means may be used for applicable connections.

4) Any modification of an electrical service requires a permit and inspection with the local inspection authority.

5) Only specially designed metering cabinets may allow 'backwards' flow of current into the grid. (These can be installed for people with wind generators so that when they are drawing less than the generator is creating the power is sent out to the grid in the proper manner. Thus resulting in significant drop in your power bill.... Yes I've installed one of these. You need LOTS of special permission and expensive gear).

Need I say more??!??!?!??!?!?

No never do this, there are many proper means to connect a generator to your house. For my house I installed a secondary panel (listed generator transfer panel, I like schnider electric (Stab-lock and Square-D) and moved the circuits I wanted to be on backup power to this panel. Then I installed a proper outdoor Generator plug (250v 30a Twist, male) and made the appropriate cable to goto my generator (that I also use on construction sites... It's gotten a lot of use). The panel is fed from a 30a breaker in my main panel, and from the generator plug. When the power goes out I 'switch' the main for the sub-panel that is designed so it is IMPOSSIBLE to have both generator and mains power on at the same time.
When the main power comes back, I know via the circuits that I don't have on the sub-panel.

I've also installed automatic whole-service transfer switches hooked up to 200a installed natural-gas powered generators. Those are NICE. Power goes out, the system revs up the generator... After a delay it disconnects the mains, and connects the main panel to the generator. Again it is designed so there is NO WAY for both to be connected at the same time.

I remember once in college a friend of mine (he was head of lx for the show) created a cable with two male ends for some silly reason to fix a mistake in run cables. The next day when he was not there for levelset, I told the LD, who immediately had us disconnect the dimmers until the cabling was fixed... I think that was indeed the correct call... In reality my friend did not save ANY time making this male to male... in the time it took him to change the ends, he could of re-routed the cables.
The LD was not impressed. Not sure if she told any of the true faculty.

Had someone disconnected that cable, or it disconnected itself it could of caused serious property damage or worse, injured or killed someone.
 
I will say it again, these cables should never be used on stage. Cam turn arounds are one thing, hooking them up to dimmer (that never actually turn off...) are another.

What you do in your home is your own business. If you want to build a cable that could kill you or your family that is your thing. If you want to keep enough guns and ammo in your basement to start WWIII that is also your thing. By doing both you are not putting anyone beyond yourself and your family at risk.

The OP asked what we thought of them in terms of backup power, not what we thought of them on stage. Lets try to stick to that discussion.
 
THIS.

I have a really hard time buying the argument that because *someone* out there is too stupid to use something *no one* should be able to use it. By this logic lets ban anything that can kill you, cars, beer, vending machines, the list goes on.

As Footer said, he keeps his, by his generator at home and this seems totally logical. Something that will terrify the tight wads of CB even more, we have a male 3 phase to 3 phase cable in the shop! Its used so we can power up a specific rack in the shop and everyone knows what it is for, same thing with the edison-> alligator clips turn around, people know what its for and no one is put at risk.

Are these cables okay to have and use, yes? Should they be tossed on a rack with all the other cables, no. A little due diligence is all you need.

NO NO NO NO NO... The Rack should have A MALE connector, so the cable is male to female! This is a code requirement!
Someone likely did not see a male in the store and bought a female instead. Or found the females to be cheaper. There is a difference between an INLET receptacle and an OUTLET receptacle... That difference is GENDER.
 
one way to make this slightly safer is to have a special spot to do such things meaing you have a male in the wall behind a lockable plate and just use a regular extention cable, i put one in my house next to our breaker box which is located in my garage. its a twist lock 220v connector which is more power than i would ever pump into my house for this purpose (feel the better equipment you put in the house makes it more safe for everyone) but it does have a main switch in my breaker box for power feed. so its the safest you can get and you don't have a suicide cord hanging around for kids or helpful neighbors to plug in.
 

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