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"Sunbox DL" 10,000 Lux medical Light

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by Peter, Jan 1, 2005.

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  1. Peter

    Peter Well-Known Member

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    This question doesnt necessaraly have a TON to do with stage craft, but I think there might be a link in here somewhere.

    My mom has been told by her doctor that she should look into getting a "Sunbox DL" light from http://www.sunbox.com the ad she has for it says "adjustable delivery of 10,000 Lux Full spectrum Light" and not much more, but they want over $200 for it. What I would like to know is would she be just as good standing close to a theatrical light for a while everyday?

    They have a "research and learn" page (https://www.sunbox.com/Research/) that, to me anyway, doesnt say much. I am really wondering if this is a rip off and what comprable numbers of Lux are for theatrical lights (source 4s, source 4 zooms, and fresnels are the lights i have, but i have no idea of what bulbs are in any of them).

    Any ideas anyone has would be appreciated! Thanks, and who knows, i dont really mind if this turns into a discussion about lumens, lux, and other lighting measurements (yes, i read a good part of ship's 2003 post on stuff like this, but didnt understand all of it).

    Thanks again!
     
  2. avkid

    avkid Not a New User Fight Leukemia

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    These bulbs are specially made for treating Seasonal Affectiveness Disorder. They are not the same as a theatrical bulb, they are a proven medical device,whether or not you choose to spend money on these is up to you,but they do work.
     
  3. ccfan213

    ccfan213 Active Member

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    also, unless your mom wants to spend a few hours every day sitting on stage how would the possibility of being able to use a source 4 change anything unless you have one and a dimmer and a console in your house?
     
  4. Mayhem

    Mayhem Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Not really knowing the lamps used, although I did read fluro tubes when having a quick look at the site I am not really able to comment upon whether or not you could reproduce the same effect with generic fixtures - which is what you wantd to know.

    However, I think you and your Mom need to consider the following:

    1 - treatment for a medical condition and as such, is it able to be paid for (in part or full) by insurance?

    2 - if not, are there clinics to which your Mom can go to have this treatment?

    3 - can she buy a second hand unit?

    4 - duration of treatment? Sit down and work it out. Is the total cost all that much in the end?

    5 - could she place a flyer/ad in the doctors clinic to find other patients that have the lamp or need the lamp? This could then lead to several patient splitting the cost and sharing in the benefit.

    6 - what other treatments are available for her condition and how do they compare in terms of cost/benefit?

    7 - was the advice given by a specialist in the field or a general practitioner? Should your Mom consider seeing a specialist or getting a second opinion.

    Just a few thoughts that come to mind. I don't think that you should post the specific condition that your Mom needs this treatment for either. Not really the place to do that and also goes against privicy.

    Sorry that I was no help with the initial question but I hope that I have helped out in some way.
     
  5. Peter

    Peter Well-Known Member

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    I figured that they were "specially made" (if they wernt a rip off) does anyone have any idea what makes them "special"?

    Hmmm, dimmers in my house! great idea :) lol actually, some of our fresnels have edison plugs and run right out of normal wall outlets (dont know about the "correctness" of doing this, it was one of the few things that was passed on to me by the techs graduating before me, and from the teacher who does tech at my school (although neather of those sources can be counted on as relyable) I am sure doing that would run up quite a power bill though! (we do it @ school so i dont ever have to see that power bill :) )

    Thanks for the input so far!
     
  6. Peter

    Peter Well-Known Member

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    Ok, in reponse to Mayhem's post (posted a few seconds before my last post).

    Insurance would probably pay for it, or at least part of it. A specialest did reccomend it. The real root of this question is curiosity more then really trying to avoid buying the lamp. It is really not practical to have a theatrical light at home both b/c of electricty costs, safety, and the general fact that that is not what they were designed to do :)

    Thanks for your ideas, now i am just curious about what makes the lamp special, is "10,000" lux realy high? is a "full spectrum" really that rair?

    I thought folurescent lights didnt give off a full spectrum, but instead gave off specific spectra, and incandescent lights gave off a much fuller spectrum, yet the site does day flurescent... odd... :) waiting to be enlightened :) Thanks!
     
  7. Mayhem

    Mayhem Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    What wattage lamp is in the Fresnel?

    What ampage is the outlet that you want to plug it into?

    Remember Voltage x Ampage will give you the maximum Wattage that you can draw from that particular outlet.

    You do the math
     
  8. dvsDave

    dvsDave Benevolent Dictator Administrator Senior Team CB Mods Fight Leukemia

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    the Lux is simply a unit of measure of "brightness" at a specified distance from a subject. That's not the real issue here. The lamp is a "Full Spectrum" lamp. It's color temperature is more important. What wavelengths of light does the lamp produce? For example, everybodys seen standard headlights and everybodys seen the High Intensity Discharge (HID) headlights. They are clearly different not only in "brightness" but also in wavelengths.

    If I am way off the mark, please let me know. But this may be a large factor as well.
     
  9. dvsDave

    dvsDave Benevolent Dictator Administrator Senior Team CB Mods Fight Leukemia

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    it's interesting that some of the sites that I've looked at say that the the light mush not be filtered from UV as that defeats the purpose of the treatment and other sites including sunbox.com that say that the Ultra-Violet(UV) light must be filtered! But almost every site agree's that sunlight is the best treatment!

    hold the phone... if sunlight is the best treatment, and since the sun's light doesn't have the UV light filtered from it, then wouldn't that mean that UV is what the patient needs?

    again and I stress this, none of us on this site are dermatologists or other specialists that can correctly diagnose SAD or recommend a treatment. I would talk to your mom's specialist and find out whether your mom just needs really bright light or actual full specturm light that replicates the sun's wavelengths.
     
  10. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    “My mom has been told by her doctor that she should look into getting a "Sunbox DL" light from” - Peter

    Ah’ lumens, lux, color temperature, CRI, spikes in the lighting spectrum etc. It’s all related to the theory of light be it psychological as we designers select and paint with, or physical/psychological as the homeopathic medicine has jumped to a conclusion about, but the rest of the medical community still debates.

    Otherwise since Philips kind of has this forum but never really helps, we have been the help to the Philips Fourm for a few years now - though I have not checked into it lately. Creative a buddy of mine from the below website and I got involved with a few conversations about this issue on the Forum - both new and old forum version that no longer exists. Wolf and I go way back with him in solving some of the most interesting problems I have ever heard of. - Wolf can verify that some of these conversations make the photo discussion on this forum nothing in comparison. Last one from the Philips Forum I took off line was about a lady that want’s to use portable and easy to set up and power strobe lights to help her set pace on her 1,000M. Dash training. Not as easy to figure out as it might seem when spaced every 10' but adjustable in rate. Lots of strange questions on the forum, many we took off line and they got stranger yet. I would recommend that you read into the Philips Forum discussions on the topic, the various links provided by others about the discussion and that you do a websearch into “light boxes” and “Seasonal Affective Disorders - S.A.D.” Than make up your own mind about the discussion. As for the understanding of all this Lux/Color temperature stuff, no better time to learn stuff than when it becomes important that you need to know.

    http://forums.lighting.philips.com/viewtopic.php?t=113
    http://forums.lighting.philips.com/viewtopic.php?t=229


    By the way, Creative and I both individually are not “New Age” doctors but both did do some reading into the subject both in the medical aspects and the stuff provided by the various manufacturers of the light boxes. Neither of us I think are entirely convinced any more than you are about the advantages of full spectrum fluorescent lamps - specifically in these manufactured light boxes, over some high intensity other versions such as halogen that are naturally full spectrum. Much less the theory itself is very sketchy on it’s success rate he posts about. The only limiting factor making say a fluorescent arc source over a halogen or even full spectrum “Reveal” type of incandescent lamp would be a higher base to the color temperature and more UV output than is possible with halogen lights. In other words, your Leko while it is full spectrum - somewhat, lacks most of the UV output that is thought in some circles to be more of a help than the visible light spectrum when it’s high in color rendering or near the color temperature of the sun. Note the filtering is to protect against UV-B and UV-C radiation that is associated with UV-A when it's provided in sizable amounts thus the special filtering. Black Light fixtures and lamps might be a good read as to how they seperate these things out and why. At least given the sketchy science facts provided, - could go either way or be a combination of both. This UV-A radiation however is thought to be more the intent otherwise if it’s full spectrum but not color temperature it’s centered upon - the sun - 5.5K, Other than this color temperature - or spikes in the wavelengths of light a incandescent/halogen bulb is centered around 3.2K you would be right, it would not be difficult to use incandescent lamps in solving the problem.

    Still Rip off in buying this one specific fixture, I think yes.

    Now for my concerns about doctor X.

    http://skepdic.com/contents.html
    http://www.straightdope.com
    http://www.ask.com.

    Otherwise I found that the webmaster of quackwatch http://www.quackwatch.org/index.html was very helpful in researching both doctors he lists, and a doctor on the below website that listed his residency in a hospital that was local to me but closed down, much less in accessing the hospital’s records, the guy was not on them for the place. Even I can call myself a Doctor in confirming my results - Educate Yourself below has a lot of these “experts”. Problem is they base their facts upon flawed data, than build upon each other’s flawed data to make up their own results.

    Given your Mom’s doctor is recommending a therapy that is not proven I believe by way of the AMA - more homeopathic solution http://educate-yourself.org/ which the doctor might or might be right in advising to try, but he is advising a specific brand of lighting fixture amongst many, you might recommend that she gets a second medical opinion. This with no judgement what so ever about the doctor your mom visits. Were I visiting a doctor, I would want one with an open mind to all solutions possible, we all certainly think that way, why shouldn’t our doctors? On the other hand, there is science and there is theory, than there is a specific brand of light box advised to purchase.
    I might admit that natural light has some advantages, but this ain’t the 1960's movie - what was it “Soilant Green”? Could be as simple as a few visits to a tanning booth that will be using lamps that already give off this UV-A light in addition to a full spectrum of light. Could be psychological in needing something the light will solve in doing something as opposed to having other things to do, could be something all together the case of a different cause to the problems that the light box will or will not fix.
    Otherwise plant and aquarium lights are high in this output UV-A also, just less so in the full spectrum. Perhaps she would be better off in spending a lot of time in a green house. In any case, I’m not convinced that given there is some reality to this healing method that use of a light box - what ever the brand would be any better than sitting in a room lit by full spectrum bulbs as a direct replacement for the normal ones. Somehow such information is left out of the manufacturer of the lightbox “helpful info.” Much less as far as I know, light boxes are still considered homeopathic medicine thus actual verification on the science and tests presented can be and normally is suspect frequently in some little details that entire theories are based upon. Could still be right, but the theory did not lead directly to the conclusion given the conclusion is still right as a big given. Or in debate terms, knock down one part of the opposing’s argument and the whole argument collapses be it urine and enema theory or light boxes, much less psychic grenades, citys under the earth or the meteor. that’s headed this way - only we don’t have tickets to the alien provided space ships. Often there is some fact wrapped in the fiction, just a question of choosing for yourself what is fact and what is fiction based upon either falling hook line and sinker or scientific theory.

    By the way, “Full Spectrum” lamps are simply normally those lamps with a Color Rendering Index “CRI” of over 75 and up to 95 or 98. Such lamps are available in many forms including the lamps our moving lights use - not saying she needs to start acting on stage or anything as either a way to get light or associate with other people because it can be medical, can be psychological can be lots of things that prompted the doctor to advise what he did.. SAD is while less than recognized I expect is the reason for her getting this advisement and like the Desart Storm Syndrom, there is much we don’t know yet.

    The point is that a high CRI in having a wide spectrum is more important than a specific color temperature but given the intent is for a daylight based light, you would want something around 55K in color temperature and re-producing the UV-A of sunlight to some extent. These companies selling 41K lamps as a solution are often confused or using old technology. This daylight can be gotten especially thru 55 or 50K full spectrum lamps, perhaps with a few plant or aquarium lamps thrown in to boost the UV output or by bulking up on the number of lamps providing the light. I have seen fluorescent lamps up to and I think beyond 75K in color temperature, but the sun is at about 55K. In any case, I still can’t see an advantage of a light box over a normal lighting fixture beyond perhaps proximity in a law of squares - distance type of way effecting light output. This can be overcome by larger or more lamps or proximity however.


    You might also try contacting some of the people off Philips website that were looking into doing this or posed the question and get their thoughts on how it all worked out for them. Look around the Philips forum, there might be more than two postings about the subject. Also contact my foil from Philips - the intermittent webmaster Demetrie in getting his opinion at least about what Philips recommends in providing this lamp, much less if or why Philips as a fixture manufacturer does not manufacturer these types of fixture. Might be an interesting question to ask. Otherwise I have some contacts at Osram if you really want to ask such questions I can forward you to.
     
  11. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Stage lighting fixtures are specifically not rated for home owner usage at home. Given that, I can count four 3.5Q5, Two 3" Fresnel, Six Pinspot and two 10" scoop in use at my house at the moment. Than again, I'm the guy that wired the fixtures and has studied into the heat related issues of why you don't use stage fixtures at home. Much less moving lights that will seriously piss off the FAA and FCC. Think about phase harmonics and aircraft landing lights.
     
  12. ccfan213

    ccfan213 Active Member

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    so you have your house wired with dimmers and a console? thats awesome!
     
  13. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Just remember what I do at home is based upon a few years of experience in wiring such things and extensive training in the application. In fact the Lekos use HX-401 lamps that don't get past 30% on the dimmer. In other words, you can put your hand on the cap of the instrument and it won't get burned. In past posts I mentioned this use for projecting a forest effect on the living room ceiling.

    Much less the scoops being used for black light blue light projection in a less than effective way.
     
  14. Peter

    Peter Well-Known Member

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    Wow! Thank you very much ship! Give me a little while to look over those sites and i'll get back to you again. I am also going to have my mom read this thread simply for some background information (again, she'll probably just end up getting a fixture like the one i mentioned, but i realy find the stuff ship talked about fascinating! Thanks!

    (yes, you are really crazy ship! theatrical lights in your house! lol as long as you are doing it safely! do you have any pictures?)
     
  15. dvsDave

    dvsDave Benevolent Dictator Administrator Senior Team CB Mods Fight Leukemia

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    Unfortunately, I have to lock down this conversation and remove it from public viewing until a TOS can be enforced. (working on it now, but this conversation has to hide for a little while)
     
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