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Installs System Upgrade - New Install

Discussion in 'Sound, Music, and Intercom' started by blademaster, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. blademaster

    blademaster Active Member

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    Well....Here the situation I'm in, I work with a christian college ministry who is looking at upgrading there system. It's a small system but I'm not a sound designer so I need all the help I can get. They haven't told me what budget they are working with so I'm taking a blind crack at it. Right now they have practically no monitor system to speak up. They daisy chained a extra speaker off of the left main to boost sound out so they can change the direction of the left main. I'll grab some pics next time i'm over there. So I want to hook up two galaxy hotspots, [email protected] to a monitor amp. So i need a amp that will power at least one of those spots on a single channel.
     
  2. blademaster

    blademaster Active Member

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  3. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    So exactly what are you trying to do? You mention a upgrade that sounds more extensive but then go right to a detail of an amp for some Hot Spot monitors, so it is not real clear what is happening or what assistance you are looking to receive. You say that you are not a sound system designer and that you don't know what the budget is, I would certainly suggest trying to get one or the other, if not both.

    My first questions are going to be to try to better understand the situation, the system and its use. What is the venue? Can you describe the existing system? Do you have a general idea of the upgrades desired, especially in terms of functionality or performance? What types of events does the system need to support?

    FWIW, while X watts at 8 Ohms would normally be 0.5X Watts at 16 Ohms, amplifiers are not necessarily linear devices in this sense so you can't apply that here and it would depend on the amplifier.

    Maybe pictures would help here as this sounds like a rather 'unusual' modification. And who is "they", is that the school or the system installer?
     
  4. blademaster

    blademaster Active Member

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    Thanks Brad for replying. The venue is for a church setup. The current configuration is Yamaha BR12's for mains set up on tripods. They don't have any monitoring at all, I misspoke in my previous post. The amp/mixer is a all in one like the Soundcraft Gigrac series, it is a 8ch board, not sure on the internal amps. I looked at the equipment when i first got there and now i dont remember much of model #'s. They have a keyboard, drums, lead guitar, lead vocal, backup guitar, and 2 other vocalists.

    When they need to hear themselves they turn the stage right main towards them. In general I love working for churches but this is the downside to it, the budget is what they can raise if we can sell the idea to the pastor really well, if not then it's up to me and my cohort in this.

    What they/we want to do to the system is make more like a pro install, as in the equipment is in the back instead of upfront next to the lead singer. I'm thinking of replacing the board, keeping the mains, buying a snake, i'd like to upgrade their mics (one sm58 everything else is something else i don't remember sorry), coming up with a cheap version of in ear monitor, getting a EQ.

    I asked about the amp because I was looking online for various amp's to power the HotSpots that I was looking at getting before we came up with the idea for in-ear monitor. All the #'s i could find on the retailer site was up to 8ohms but never gave me 16.

    The gigs they need to support is eventually a full band minus miccing the drums. The size of the room says they dont need to do that. They do a occasional concert style event at other locations so it needs to be somewhat portable. Mostly speaking with some music is their primary, they are looking to record though.

    I think I explained it well this time :D

    This is what i'm thinking of. click here
     
  5. waynehoskins

    waynehoskins Active Member

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    Okay, I think I understand it better now. You're looking to do a permanent church install including video in a room that's currently being served by two speakers on sticks and a box mixer.

    You might give the guys over on the Churchmedia forum a ring -- they're good with this kind of stuff too.
     
  6. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    That amp is probably fine for the Hot Spots but I doubt they would be sufficient for a contemporary service unless you had several on stands, and even that might be pushing it. The reason for the 16 Ohm impedance on the Hot Spots is so that you can daisy-chain two to four of them off most amps.

    FWIW, you budget is also missing any racks, desk, etc, as well as any conduit and power work that may be required. Also, I don't know how big the room is, but in permanent installs you often have to run cabling in a rather indirect path to make use of the available cable paths and to keep it out of the way (and out of sight). You might want to verify that the 50' lengths on the snake and speaker cabling are long enough. You also want to be sure to figure out how you are going to run that snake and the speaker cables when they are already terminated, I'm almost sure that they can't be run in any ceilings that are considered a plenum.
     
  7. blademaster

    blademaster Active Member

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    You are correct in my budget doesn't include that I am planning on using Gator GRC 12x10PU. Cable Run is gonna be up along the crest of the ceiling, covered. 50 might be long enough, might be a couple short and have to go with the 75' snake. We don't really have any existing cable paths. And I just realized that I need to change amps, I picked that amp for the hotspots but I decided to go with in-ear monitor. Any good ideas for what amp i can go with for driving the two Yamaha BR12's.?

    Also here is a list of what equipment is there.
    Crate PA-8
    2 Yamaha BR12
    4 mics (2 AKG D65, 1 Shure SM58, 1 EV PL80)
    Yamaha P-80 Keyboard
    Guitar or two
    Peavey Guitar Amp - Not Used
    3 booms
    4 Mic Stands (1 iron base, 3 Tripod)
    Drums
    2 Eminence EC15 Monitor
    2 Music Stands
     
  8. zehink

    zehink Member

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    for what you're dealing with a 500 watt amp sounds like it can work, providing that you aren't going outdoors, and your sound techs aren't trying to push the highs to what you expect to hear out of a car blasting rap music without a sub.
    The BR12's are 8 ohm so you can daisy chain them and use the amp's mono bridge mode if it is rated at 4 ohms for possibly a little more headroom if needed.

    depending on the budget you could go with a QSC RMX 1450 ($499?) which will offer the watts needed to safely power the speakers, just make sure that while you're live, the peak lights on the amps don't light up, otherwise you're on the way to blowing the horns. they can handle a little but I would never push it to where they're on every time that a the speaker gets a little rowdy and loud. just try and keep the speaker cables short as possible, and if you choose to run stereo, then make sure they are the same length for equal performance. (longer lengths mean more floppy sounding speakers=not good)
     
  9. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    A couple of common oversimplifications in this information. For one, you don't really need to worry about the cables being the same length unless you are talking about very long runs and dramatic differences in the run lengths. And longer cable length does not directly relate to 'floppy' sounding speakers. The real issue with the first is line loss and the second is damping factor and both of these are dependent on not just the cable length but also on factors such as the load impedance, the cable resistance and the voltage and current involved. In fact by halving the load impedance, the idea presented of running two speakers on parallel off a bridge mono amp could have more impact on reducing the damping factor than does the cable length.

    Another sort of oversimplification, or perhaps more accurately a common misapplication, is the concept of needing a certain wattage to "safely" power the speakers. For most installed or permanent systems the underlying issue here is simply having appropriate output for the application. If you only need 1W to the speaker to get the necessary output then a 50W or 100W amp might be more than enough even if the speaker is rated at 500W or 1,000W. The idea of basing the amplifier on the speaker rating comes from situations where instead of trying to achieve a specific result, which is more typical of installed systems, you are wanting to get all you potentially can from the speaker in a relatively safe manner, which is more typical of rental and touring systems.

    The RMX-1450 might be a good choice but I would run it stereo with one BR12 on each channel. Both speakers in parallel off a bridge mono RMX-1450 would be giving the speakers more than their peak rated power and especially without any limiting, unless you were real careful you could be having to replace drivers on a regular basis.

    Speaking of limiting, you might want to consider some signal processing, EQ might really help the house system and the monitors if you don't use in-ears and some compression and limiting might help both.
     
  10. TimmyP1955

    TimmyP1955 Active Member

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    Who is it that needs monitors so as to hear themselves?

    Anyone who's speaking should have no trouble being monitor-less, as pitch and meter are not issues (as in singing).

    If the choir cannot hear themselves, something else is too loud.
     
  11. blademaster

    blademaster Active Member

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    For Monitors, I am doing in-ear monitor's for a couple reasons, first is to lower any stage noise, second is to cut off the cost of another amp and monitor's, third is asthetics, fourth is that with how I am setting up the in ear system I can do more mix for more ppl. I am monitoring the drummer, the keyboardist, and the guitarists.

    I looked at the RMX-1450 and the RMX-1805HD, it was also recommended by another friend of mine who works for fullcompass. All three would do the job well, but I am on a rather short budget since due to some odd situations one of my buddies and I will be footing the bill. I am looking to be able to squeeze as much as able out of these speakers because of the possible other areas we might play in. The 1805HD might be overkill though, and the 1450 is great but I'm not a fan of the price, the XLS-602D is my price and just about the right wattage. BTW it is going to be a 100' speaker cable run. The speakers are at the corners of the room and i'm running it up the middle along with the 75' snake run. I do however plan on running it in stereo to make the keyboard sound a little better, and I am running a 31 band eq, the DBX 231.
     

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