Table saw for tech theater class?

[kevinatblinn]

When I am making long cuts with a circular saw, I do use a saw guide (although a track would be cool), but I also do it on the ground. I lay a 3/4" or 1" thick piece of extruded foam (blue/pink/white) on the ground, set the piece I'm cutting on top of it, set the depth of the circular saw so it cuts through the top material and about 1/4" into the foam. While I am on my knees for the cut, I can safely pause and allow the saw to stop, adjust my body, and continue the cut. There's no saw horses for the off-cut to fall from or for me to cut through, no fingers underneath the wood - it all seems quite safe and manageable to me. I normally use this method for long diagonal cuts or others that would be difficult to manage on the table saw.

 

[Colin]

When I am making long cuts with a circular saw, I do use a saw guide (although a track would be cool), but I also do it on the ground.

I'm not saying you're bound to get hurt doing this, and I get how it could be easier sometimes, but I would rather see people just get used to the limits of their reach and to using saw horses whenever possible. Reasons are:

- At least in the OP's situation with student use, I wouldn't trust every student to correctly set blade depth every time. An instructor could check first, but that's an awful lot of micromanagement, still with potential for a mistake. Also, depending on the guide and its use, it is often possible to overshoot the end of the material and saw guide when finishing a cut, at which point it becomes challenging to keep the saw from dropping down. In either case the blade could contact the floor, leading to the saw climbing or kicking back, or broken teeth kicking around. That's in addition to the damage to the floor. You said you cut on the "ground" so maybe you're working outdoors? That's probably better, but one still might not know for sure what's in that ground.

- I'm aware of two instances of very experienced carpenters being badly cut after losing control of circ saws while using them at floor level. One cut through most of his big toe (should have had a safety toe!) and the other narrowly missed his femoral artery (cut that and your EMTs better be really fast!). In a kneeling or crouching position, you're likely to have more of your body in harm's way if the saw climbs/kicks, and it is harder to get out of the way quickly compared to when on your feet in proper stance. The luxury of not having to reach sideways across sheet material could also encourage someone to follow with their body directly behind the saw while cutting, rather than staying a bit offset from the path of a kickback.

- Foam eventually gets chewed up and then you have to spend another $20 or so for a fresh sheet, versus maybe (but probably not) replacing $3 of 2x4 on a pair of horses.

- Foam dust is gross, plus foam is toxic and eventually flammable when heated. Of course everyone should have a nice sharp blade and hold the saw steady enough to minimize friction and keep the blade cool through a thick sheet...

 

[garyvp]

Agree with Colin. I like the idea of a track saw or panel saw, but you need a good space/table for safe operation (see that third paragraph above). Never on the floor. We have one fellow who only uses the 2x4 track method but he is very disciplined and careful and always uses a fresh 3/4" 4x8 plywood sheet for a table (on our horses) to jig everything on. However, we mostly use a 10 year old Home Depot Rigid table saw mounted on a proper lockable trolley. For the money (about 600$ at the time) we felt that it was very solid, had a better fence than other saws in that price range, and had an expandable bed. Space is a major issue for us and it is fine. other than the blade guard, nothing has broken after 100 shows. We also use a pedestal roller to assist panel cuts. Still, I worry about anyone new, young or old, using the table saw unattended. Every carpenter I know is light a finger tip from these.

 

[bobgaggle]

Still, I worry about anyone new, young or old, using the table saw unattended. Every carpenter I know is light a finger tip from these.

There seems to be a mythos about table saws and students here on CB. Every carpenter I know has been injured more times by screw guns than table saws. This tool is no more dangerous than any other saw, because poor technique is the real danger. You can get a nasty gash from a pull saw (been there done that) and you can get a nasty gash from a TS. Granted you're probably not going to amputate your finger with a pull saw. And yes, teens are hormone ridden and haven't developed enough to make wise choices, yet we still let them operate cars at 60mph on the open road. If we let them do that why not let them run a saw? Implement good techniques and develop a culture of respect for the tools and equipment.

OP, I'm not bashing panel, track, or circ saws. Just venting about this idea that table saws are too dangerous for teens to use

edit:
Also most of the injuries I've witnessed have happened during a time crunch. People start rushing and cutting corners, and inevitably fingers. For whatever that's worth

 

[rsmentele]

Go down to the woodworking shop class and see what they have installed. I can almost guarantee that they are standard table saws. The first few weeks of those classes are all about safety and how to operate the tools properly. Accident's will happen, no matter what.

Teaching the kids how to operate the tools properly and avoid injury will go much farther than buying a tool to prevent the injury and not teaching them to avoid the issue all together. You can be sure if these kids continue with set construction, or any type of woodworking, they will need to use a regular table saw.

Teach them how to properly use the tools. Teach them to respect the safety rules. If they cannot learn those things, they cannot use them.

 

[Fountain Of Euph]

If you could somthing as simple as buying a diffrent saw to ensure safety if your students, why wouldn't you. Most drivers Ed cars have a passenger hand break. Dosent mean that students dont need to be good drivers.

Sent from Taptalk for Android, this was.

 

[bobgaggle]

On a sort of side note. The sawstop is great at preventing and reducing injuries, but its not the end all be all of safety. I believe the safety on this saw will keep you from bleeding if you touch the blade with the body part moving at >1"/second towards the blade. So if you're making a controlled cut at a good feed rate and your finger happens to be in the wrong place you get to keep your finger. If you're ripping a twisty piece of CDX in an un air conditioned shop and your hands are sweaty, your hand can easily slip and shoot towards the blade a lot faster and you end up with a new story to post here. In the end it all goes back to having proper technique and good safety protocols, regardless of the tool you're using.

I knew a high school shop teacher who had a sawstop but he painted over all the logos and branding. He didn't want his kids to know what it was so they wouldn't get sloppy thinking the tool would keep them safe.

 

[dpak]

I ended up making a circular saw guide. So far it has worked well, producing fairly straight cuts. The students who have used it said it was much easier than using a 2x4.

Every student has to learn how to use a drill, but the saws are optional. I know they can be scary, so I don't want to force a student to use one, in part because I don't want someone who is terrified using one.In a dream world, we would have a sawstop, track saw and panel saw, but as long as we can get decent results with the guide, I'll stick with it.

 

[bobgaggle]

I ended up making a circular saw guide. So far it has worked well, producing fairly straight cuts. The students who have used it said it was much easier than using a 2x4.

What surface did you end up cutting on? There was discussion of saw horses verses sheet foam...

 

[dpak]

What surface did you end up cutting on? There was discussion of saw horses verses sheet foam...

We're just cutting off the edge of a loading dock .

 

[peacefulone61]

You might have no choice I know some states now have laws that states any new power table saw with some sort of break system.

 

[bobgaggle]

You might have no choice I know some states now have laws that states any new power table saw with some sort of break system.

Hadn't heard that. Kind of ridiculous given that Sawstop dominates that market. I've heard a few companies are starting to think about rolling out safety stops on table saws, haven't seen any reviews yet.

 

[venuetech]

Hadn't heard that. Kind of ridiculous given that Sawstop dominates that market. I've heard a few companies are starting to think about rolling out safety stops on table saws, haven't seen any reviews yet.

Bosch Reaxx has just hit the stores, after some court objections from sawstop.

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$100 bucks for a replacement cartridge (two shots) and you save your old blade.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

The history of Sawstop and regulations is not pretty.

 

[gafftaper]

Just for the record, I want to point out that many people only think of a Sawstop because of it's safety features. But it's also a top of the line table saw. I have a really nice Jet saw here in my new theater and it's fine, but I really miss my Sawstop from the old theater. Safety features asside, it was just a better saw.

 

[microstar]

You might have no choice I know some states now have laws that states any new power table saw with some sort of break system.

Which states would those be?

 

[venuetech]

Which states would those be?

At this point i do not think any states have such a law. California had a bill in the works but it failed in 2012 after manufactures and retailers joined forces to stop it. I think the bill was tied directly to sawstop and did not leave any room for competing products.
As i understand things the SawStop inventor Stephan Gass (a patent lawyer) initially offered major manufactures a licence deal. They all balked at the proposed offer and refused to licence the technology. So SawStop started designing and building their own line of table saws. Fiercely defending any hint of patent
infringement. Promoting their technology whenever they can. Other table saw manufactures must develop their own flesh detection/blade stop systems and then run up against any and all infringement law suits by Gass & company.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/45040/stephen-colbert-takes-the-sizzle-out-of-sawstop

Bosch has been the first to run the gauntlet.

 

[dpak]

A quick update: Students have used the circular saw guide and all have said it was much easier than using the 2x4 method. The cuts haven't been perfect - sometimes they forget to push against the guide - but they have been much better. It might not be the ideal solution, but since it cost nothing to make (saving us at least $400) I can live with it.

 

[kicknargel]

If you make sure to position your guide on the "keep" side of the cut, then you can go back and clean up the cut if you've wandered away from the fence. It's easy to make wood smaller!

 

[bobgaggle]

Just for the record, I want to point out that many people only think of a Sawstop because of it's safety features. But it's also a top of the line table saw.

Yeah its a great saw. Just got the add on sliding table and I love it. Old guys in the shop are having a hard time adjusting though haha