The Cheap LED Round-Up

I haven't actually used the Quads, but I do have some decent experience using the Opti RGBs, and I'll say a few things with the hope that they also apply to the more expensive units.

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Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I've been trying to pull photometric data on various LED pars etc all morning. I'm now beginning to wonder of going the "non-cheap" route with some ETC Desire D60's would yield better results, especially in our space. They are roughly twice as expensive as the Elations (Quad), but that have SO much more beef in terms of lux. Plus they come standard with a 17 degree angle with tons of secondary lens options. I too worry about the 10 degree angle, especially since their data basically stops around 10ft, I'd be hanging these and throwing way more than 10ft. I could frost/diffuse them to help spread the light, but then I'm just going to lose more lux.

Basically, if it takes two (or more) "cheap" LED pars to sorta make what one "expensive" one can do, I feel like I should just go with the more expensive unit and build up the inventory at half the rate, but with better lights(?). Still looking at everything, but I'm starting to think that the Opti's, while nice in price, just may not be enough for what I'm looking to do.

Thanks again and if anyone has any experience with the ETC Desire (especially the D60's) I'd love to hear it.
 
...Thanks again and if anyone has any experience with the ETC Desire (especially the D60's) I'd love to hear it.
I attended a demo of the Desire line and was reasonably impressed. I believe they said the D60 wouldn't be available until this summer. One thing I like about the D40 is that it can take all the standard 7.5" accessories (top hat, barn door, colorframe, etc.). The D60 will be a non-standard size. One thing I don't like is too many options: D40 Vivid, Lustr+, Ice, Fire, Studio HD, Studio Daylight, Studio Tungsten; and TWELVE lenses (many of which can be combined); from which to choose.
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Do the Desires have a nice PAR-shaped beam? Are they bright enough to replace some PAR EA 575Ws? Are they cheap enough to make it worth it?
 
Read the literature.

Desires have alternate lensing to give oval or round beams with various beam angles. Bright enough depends on what you are trying to do and the fixture with which you are trying to do it. If you want white light out of a Vivid then an EA is likely going to win in a shootout. If you want saturated colour out of a Vivid then they'd be much brighter than a gelled PAR EA.
 
I attended a demo of the Desire line and was reasonably impressed. I believe they said the D60 wouldn't be available until this summer. One thing I like about the D40 is that it can take all the standard 7.5" accessories (top hat, barn door, colorframe, etc.). The D60 will be a non-standard size. One thing I don't like is too many options: D40 Vivid, Lustr+, Ice, Fire, Studio HD, Studio Daylight, Studio Tungsten; and TWELVE lenses (many of which can be combined); from which to choose.

Hmm. I hadn't thought about the accessories. I think it'll be ok though, the D60's use 10.5in. I just talked to my supplier who says ETC is claiming they'll ship in July. I agree that the options seem a little daunting, but after reading through all the documentation, I think we'd be looking at a D60 Vivid. We want them for serious color washes (again, in a theatre setting, not club). I worry the Elations, while nicer price points, aren't going to give us what we really want.
 
Read the literature.

Desires have alternate lensing to give oval or round beams with various beam angles. Bright enough depends on what you are trying to do and the fixture with which you are trying to do it. If you want white light out of a Vivid then an EA is likely going to win in a shootout. If you want saturated colour out of a Vivid then they'd be much brighter than a gelled PAR EA.

I guess it wasnt so much a I can find this in the liturature question so much as a has anyone seen these in action and do they do what you want them to sort of question. I like the idea for our theatre, but our cheap throw-away LED cans do a decent job at some things... Basically wondering if people have had experience with them and like them?
 
I have used four different Elation lights recently. I went with them based partially on posts from CB. And $$. I used Opti Tri Pars, Eled Par 56, Pro Par 56, and Pro Par CWWW. In both cases I had a short throw - about 8-15'.

Here is my take: Into the first room I put the Pro Par lights. I found that they are very tightly focused - so the stage wash is a bit spotty. I have wished for a wider beam, especially in a short throw range. It seems more like a club light.

Into the next room I put the Eleds and the Opti Tri Pars. The Eleds have a little wider beam, and offer white/amber color mixing (so do the Pro Par CWWW). They have a wider, smoother beam than the Pro Par white lights. The Opti Tri Par is a step or two up from all of the others. I love the color saturation of the tri-color LEDs, and the beam width is better for close lighting. I still wish it had a wider beam, but it works very well in my application. The Tri Pars use a lens that provides the beam spread - and I wish that it was changeable. I have seen other lights with lens options - but this one does not. Still - I would use it in theatre. I even like the white that it mixes - possibly better than the white that I get from the Eled.

If your throw is 15'-20' - I think you will be happy with the Tri Par.

Do note the lights have fans that can be heard, but the sound from them is very low.
 
I purchased six RGBW wash fixtures from MS Lighting and shipped them over for $245 each including shipping. They have forty eight 3W LEDs in a rectangular heavy aluminium housing. They can run in 7 channel or 4 channel mode, there is a control panel with digital LCD display on the rear. Each fixture has pass through mains power and DMX. the following link shows the basic fixture but they can manufacture them with your own complement of LEDs - which is what I did.

LED Wall Washer-LED Light - Ms stage Lighting of chinese factory

I purchased these fixtures to provide a floor mounted wall wash behind a choir. The choir performs in various locations normally church halls and gymnasiums and has a system of portable risers that are 28 feet wide. The six fixtures sit theree feet from the wall on the floor behind the risers and do a great job of washing the wall. You can mix a good range of colours but you really need amber LEDs to increase the colour pallete. the dimming curve is okay with a step at settings below 20. You can do strobes and colour chasees in 7 channel mode.

There is no fan the heat disipation is handled by the heavy aluminium construction, they weigh 7lbs each, are 30in by 5in by 6 in. Issues so far are a broken DMX cable and connector shell. The DMX connectors have a screw on plastic shell which does not enjoy being stepped on.

there are some niggles with them but for the money spent they have a lot of punch, provide an even wall wash and have survived six months of use being hired out on a weekly basis. The choirs and other customers love the light they get from them and come back to hire them again - this is the real test for me. It was a risk when I purchased these fixtures but it has worked out so far. I bought them knowing I could expect to have to repair them which is okay for me - I service all my own and other customers equipment but can be a problem for others. The biggest issue was the feet - I replaced these with 2 in wide yokes.
 
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I purchased six RGBW wash fixtures from MS Lighting and shipped them over for $245 each including shipping.

I too wouldn't mind hearing some details on this. That seems like a really good price for LED ground rows. Is your custom part the RGBW (or did I miss that on their site)? From 3ft as you describe, how big a wash are you throwing, whole wall? Any idea the beam angle on these or if they have lenses? Thanks!
 
Probably not going to replace an S4-PAR, but a seemingly nice fixture nonetheless.

MSRP, dj41354?

Without actually seeing the unit--PROs: Listed, by NRTL, 5-pin XLR, RGBW, various lenses available, fanless, size; CONs: no power pass-thru, no track record.

MSRP = $780
It does have an internal fan that runs slowly enough to be almost inaudible.
Yeah.. pretty much no track record yet (just gettin' going) but PLSN published a "Road Test" back in Feb:
PLSN | The Brickblaster Pro
(the .pdf of the article is a little easier to read)
http://theblacktank.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Brickblaster-Pro-Story.pdf
Fixture was introduced at LDI last Oct and generated a fair amount of interest.
Plus, the Warm+Neutral+Cool white (WNC) version was received pretty well at LFI in Philly last month.
 
Church-
Can you provide more details on how you customized them? Any photos of them in action?

normally the fixtures come with sixteen red, sixteen blue and sixteen green LEDs. We asked MS Lighting if they also supplied them with White and Amber LEDs - they said yes they could supply them with RGBW at no extra cost: sixteen green, sixteen blue LEDs, eight red and eight white. They can also supply RGBAW for an small charge - although no had asked for this before. It would add another control channel and they wanted us to say what LED mix we wanted.

We had purchased one of the RGB fixtures just to try it out - we figured it was worth chancing $245 to evaluate a fixture. It worked out well enough and we pulled it apart to see how well it was built and how it worked. We put it back together after stripping it down and still works fine.

It uses surface mount LEDs so there is no orientation variation between the LEDs, there is a lens that fits over each LED. The LEDs are in series chains of 8 LEDs each, there is a single pulse width modulation driver for each colour driving the LEDs through a power transistor.. The housing is a single aluminium extrusion with end caps. The LED board is mounted directly onto the extrusion with a layer of heat sink compound to provide a decent heat sink. The power supply is a seperate unit in its own case that fits inside the housing. The housing is black anodised and it has survived rough handling. The boards are all FR4 glass fibre. We were surprised at the build quality for the price.

The LEDs are matched there is no discernable colour difference between any LEDs in any of the fixtures. My friend also bought six and we often use all twelve together.

I do not know the beam angle but it is fairly narrow. I normally place them no more than three feet from the wall and three feet apart and angle them towards the wall. They will light the wall of a gym 25 feet high and also cover part of the ceiling. I do not have any photos I will try and get some. I also use them to wash the wall before the choir comes onto the "stage" and they are capable of washing the wall with saturated colour even with the normal gym lights on.

The things I do not like are:

1) the touch panel membrane buttons are a bit too small for my fingers.
2) the original mounting brackets - replaced with yokes
3) when fading up from zero they do not turn on until 20% and the dimmer curve could be a bit smoother it is about the same standard as the Elation Professional and NSI shoebox dimmers. Strangely enough they are smoother fading using their own internal programmed routines. I have used them with Colortran, Elation and ETC boards and the behaviour is the same.
4) the original power connectors - I cut them off and replaced them with Leviton U grounds.
5) The 3 pin XLRs (black colour which is nice) but the quality of the connector is not as good as a Neutrik connector and the 26 gauge DMX cable is too flimsy. These have survived six months of rental work but will need to be replaced shortly - not a big deal and a cheap modification.

The strobe feature is good - you can strobe all LEDs simultaneously to give a white around 4500K or you can strobe in Red, Blue or Green. You can run in four channel mode or seven. The four channel works well on a theatre board where you can program your own chases etc.

We also use them for R&R shows and they hold their own with a rig of 24 PAR 64s with 1kW lamps. I also use them with a rig of S4 PARs and again they are okay.

Not perfect but pretty darn good for $245 each. All in all they have convinced me that LEDs are a useful tool and acceptable performance is achievable at a reasonable price. As the technology improves in the next year or so the performance will become phenomenal.

I should mention that my friend has one that has a failed LED - we are waiting for MS Lighting to send a replacement and some extra spare LEDs just in case.
 
I too wouldn't mind hearing some details on this. That seems like a really good price for LED ground rows. Is your custom part the RGBW (or did I miss that on their site)? From 3ft as you describe, how big a wash are you throwing, whole wall? Any idea the beam angle on these or if they have lenses? Thanks!

The beam angle is quite narrow and there are time when I wish it was wider but they use the same lens arrangement that I have seen on other LED fixtures. When we pulled a sample apart we found the lens assemblies are glued on and can be removed easily so presumably if you had other lenses you could replace them. We later realised that MS Lighting offer different lens angles so presumably we could have specified something else - the trick is knowing what to ask for. It is possible to use a light frost on the front to widen the spread.

When I use them behind the choir the light on the bottom five feet of the wall is patchy because of the beam angle but the audience doesn't see it because of the risers. I did try them on a cyc on a small stage and I had to use frost on them to get an even wash that I found acceptable.

Unfortunately I do not have any photos to post - I am not any good at photography so I only have a camera that is great for daylight and flash but does not give good results for anything else. I will ask my friend to see if he has any photos from the gigs they have done.
 
The beam angle is quite narrow and there are time when I wish it was wider but they use the same lens arrangement that I have seen on other LED fixtures. When we pulled a sample apart we found the lens assemblies are glued on and can be removed easily so presumably if you had other lenses you could replace them. We later realised that MS Lighting offer different lens angles so presumably we could have specified something else - the trick is knowing what to ask for. It is possible to use a light frost on the front to widen the spread.
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Thanks for the info. They seem like a pretty good deal for $245 shipped. I'm assuming you called them directly and ordered? I checked out their site and downloaded their 2011 catalog, they actually have a ton of offerings (LEDs, movers, conventionals etc.). Unfortunately, there are no prices anywhere. Also looks like they offer a 48in version with the same 3w LEDs.

People here and elsewhere have said repeatedly you get what you pay for in terms of LEDs, but from your experience, you're not paying a lot and getting something that sounds rather acceptable. I can't find any hands on experiences/reviews of any of their products (other than yours of course), but that doesn't really surprise me as they are heavily based out of China and are a little obscure. Certainly a good find. Thanks again.
 
Thanks for the info. They seem like a pretty good deal for $245 shipped. I'm assuming you called them directly and ordered? I checked out their site and downloaded their 2011 catalog, they actually have a ton of offerings (LEDs, movers, conventionals etc.). Unfortunately, there are no prices anywhere. Also looks like they offer a 48in version with the same 3w LEDs.

People here and elsewhere have said repeatedly you get what you pay for in terms of LEDs, but from your experience, you're not paying a lot and getting something that sounds rather acceptable. I can't find any hands on experiences/reviews of any of their products (other than yours of course), but that doesn't really surprise me as they are heavily based out of China and are a little obscure. Certainly a good find. Thanks again.

We did everything by email - time zone difference is the biggest issue. I have emailed my friend to see if he has any photos of the wash lights working - he is in Australia on a tour at the moment so not sure when to expect a reply.

My friend also bought two of the moving heads they already have a number of MACs and Elation heads in inventory but they wanted to see what you got. They came with the same Phillips lamps they have in their MACs. They have not been so happy with the heads as we are with the LED wash fixtures. The biggest pain was simply having to write every macro from scratch - otherwise they seem to have worked fine.
 

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