Vintage Lighting The heck is ths?

[ship]

Back so soon - no not persay, just confounded by a light I'm working on.

Started working on a PC fixture that’s just like a Mole Richardson classic 5K SolarSpot Fresnel in size and style. Perhaps slightly shorter in depth. Mole Richardson totally denies their making of this fixture which is believed given a lack of any markings or name plate missing holes on it, and while similar in inner paint, outer paint and overall construction, very different.

Did some paint remover and scratch tests and the outer black and inner Mole Maroon colors are not seemingly modified from the photos. Recently the SkyPan from Europe came up to me to make more of (not possible), and the paint is similar fliker.com and I question than about if only Mole Richadson was using that color after the 30's. Would believe this fixture was made domesticly but very old.

Further info on the fixture, it comes from a c.1911 theater - though I think the bent EMT like conduit yoke and knobs are from the 40's at least. Further, of fasteners on the fixture, we are talking 10-24 round head stove bolts with square nuts, hand cut 3/8 NPT like spacers between baffles and 10-32 thread cutting round head screws and #8 Pan Head sheet metal screws. Nothing modern in style but at least for thread cutting screws... something later WWII I think, and in fact the cord is run thru a porcelain and brass bushing which is turn of the century style. F.E. Company which is more like turn of the century than post WWII in style and age. Thinking 1940's in age.

Bi-pin G-38 lamp socket is a solid asbestos block with brass sockets mounted to it for lamp socet and minimalist needs. Not a Mole like lamp socket. No name brand anywhere on the socket. Lamp that came with it was a very old Sylvania CYV halogen upgrade to a tungsten tube lamp style. We are talking really really old halogen upgrade (Mark you have a antique for you coming on next visit.) At best early to mid-1960's for date for this very early lamp.

Designed for a 1 or 2Kw globe or tube type lamp I think, or at most dates to the start of halogen upgrade lamps to such fixtures in the eary 60's. Design problem for the fixture is that it has a steel reflector that is directly on center attached to the rear housing of the fixture and does not focus with the lamp optically. The lamp and lens are both off center to this center. Lamp filiment and lens sit higher to the axis of the light and are off center. This that the reflector doesn't directly optically relate to lamp or lens is very odd in something not seen before.

Could be that this fixture was designed and made to mount a say fire or water scroller effects wheel. Could be also that this off center reflector for a fire wheel would do a better job of doing the rotating wheel than something that is focused. Such an off center reflector than might be explained in if for effects wheel. Don't know and not tested yet but a concept.

After that... no idea in probably from the early 1940's and seemingly two colors.

In the past I have fully researched down to companies like National X-Ray Company so as to figure out lights - but that’s based on at least a marking somewhere. This one has no markings and nobody says they made it so far. Any help?

 

[avkid]

Weird, the construction and color scheme of the body scream Mole.

 

[StNic54]

Ever hear that old Johnny Cash song? One Piece at a Time?

 

[Kelite]

Wow Ship- that is one interesting fixture!

It does remind me of something from the Mole-Richardson family but w/o any distinguishing birthmarks, it may be a bit tricky to identify.

What lamp type/model is in it presently?

 

[jonliles]

Oh, and how is the Baby? When are you going to post pics for us?

 

[ship]

It was a quick photo - should have removed the blankie. (No more cute baby posts... they all look alike at this age.)

Lamp that came with it is an early Tungsten Halogen upgrade c.1964 CYV from Sylvania. I believe this fixture will have been designed around a GE #22429 1M/T20BP lamp given the type of parts in use for my estimated late 40's thru 50's age. Stuff like early EMT conduit bent and welded to hex nuts as seen on the knobs and hex nuts welded to the black cage of fixture in photos. Will know for sure what lamp once I re-assemble it and take a really good look at where the filament is in relation to the lens. CYV says it’s LCL is 5", the old lamp unless there was another T-20 version is 4".

Assuming what the effects projector was made to do - say an effects fire effects wheel and that it’s the wrong lamp; it also means this fixture with the current lamp would never throw out a good beam. This especially given the reflector is center mounted yet the filament is now closer to the top of the fixture and further still away optically. Way strange fixture, and possibly cannot be bench focused..

I think possible a case could be made that this fixture was made for projecting a fire effects wheel in explaining why the reflector is not mounted to center on the filament and that’s because of the effects wheel perhaps optically is a disc. Perhaps it is intended a sort of very light output wash second/double image out of it so as to soften and blend the initial beam with a secondary blending of it.

I did get two effects wheels out of the theater, one was dull green in color and a clock works spring mover for it instead of a motor that still works - with internal fan blades so as to control speed. Believe this one is c.1911 and ?Brenkert #F7 Scenic Effects Sciopticon wheel and had the broken and taped together hand painted mica fire effects wheel installed on it unless they were swapped with the below at some point (below with the other wheel).

The other effects wheel is a dark gray Display Stage Lighting Scenic Effects Sciopticon wheel of I think the same date but cannot tell as the motor and motor housing for it were replaced and removed for cover probably at the same time the lamp was replaced. It should be really old as the star light effects wheel is made out of some form of tarred duck fabric that has holes hand punched in it. However, at some point - probably during the 60's someone attempted to reinforce this falling apart thread sewn to frame stretched wheel by adding a wider aluminum disc to its center for support. The aluminum reinforcement disc of course over the years had some form of reaction with the fabric and stained it. The seamstress at work had to both dye and re-stitch the disc back to it’s wire frame carefully.

Most likely, this effects projector was bought in like the early 50's. It I think or assume that it was to replace the Brenkert Carbon Arc “Junior” 6" PC Spotlight that I also got out of the theater. One would think when the carbon arc was taken out of service, they were still using effects wheels and bought a domestic effects light fixture from somewhere that was filament/incandescent and designed perhaps for such wheels. This new fixture may have also removed the need for secondary Sciopticon lens trains added to it only testing will tell. My guess and perhaps a huge black hole in technology and will take some R&D on my part once I get it re-assembled.

Checked today, all I so far have in stock is T-24 1.5Kw and larger wattage lamps in stock with the G-38 socket. They won’t work. There is hope though in other antiques lights I have not investigated yet for replacement of what lamp they have installed and should not work properly. Shipping used lamps tends to break filaments (won’t try that again.) Note TechniLux has some possible new T-20 lamps for sale, perhaps might thru them or see if Kennedy Webster has some on the shelves look into it further if 4" instead of 5" LCL I guess but might be wrong on in lamp type used. Given that 1" LCL difference, and the asbestos mounting block for the lamp is only 1" thick, there is no play in modification for a different lamp. (Modification is what I often do when “using” old fixtures on shows where lamps are intended to work - this without destroying the original lamp.) Same concept in changing a 10Kw. Mole Fresnel to a 2K Fresnel when not going LED as prop shell fixture. Work a lot with Mole Richardson studio fixtures in making them something else.

On the very thick asbestos block the lamp sockets are mounted to, not worried about this part being asbestos. All else is replaced. As long as coated in a thick layer of paint this block is safe. Focus bolt needed to be replaced though - not long enough to properly work as per how it came to me as per a focus slide bolt. In photos seen a perhaps hand cut slide and end user hole at it’s bottom. Possible this was not made to focus given an abandoned hole above the slide groove. Makes sense also given the lack of alignment in sliding for the smaller than bottom of fixture size. There is nothing to keep the lamp in base aligned and perpendicular to the lens if it slides, and I had to grind away at the bottom hand drilled hole so as to make it flush.

Hmm, thanks for the help. If possible pass photos of it around to old timers = there is no identification other than F.E. Company in supplying the porcelain cord bushing to the fixture as per an electrical supplier noted. Researched the bushing brand in the past and they also supplied the exact same part to both my Benjamin Lighting #3150 Olivalittes c.1911 and to the National X-Ray Reflector Company 12" Floodlight if I remember correctly in parts removed. Benjamin Lighting is out of Chicago, National X-Ray is New York and Chicago.

Possible out of Chicago as a manufacturer of this fixture - given it was also found in Chicago at least by way of the only part similar and with a name.. Also finding as I work with more and more antique lights and accessories, that colors on fixtures were possibly in use a lot more than thought early on over just different types of black in texture, or gray. Many greens and other colors in use. Even some white for switch handles. Yet to work on an iris accessory but questioning if perhaps it was gold in original color tba. Old fixtures could it would seem be colorful and perhaps not just as initially thought a 1960's type of colorful thing added to them. Have to re-visit this subject later and with more research. At least got photos before I stripped color and turned black and even “Japaning” part of my museum in “restoring”. Could have been some form of black primer at times in scratch tests to tell what color it is really. Most is and should be some form of black or gray, thinking other companies did other colors though early and into like the 20's. Mole Richardson started in the 30's as texture black. At some point between the 40's and 50's they went with their Maroon color which has slightly different lot number coloring differences dependant on exact age. This color is modern but for an older fixture.

I have for instance a researched and dated 1956 #23 “Double Side” Bunch Light from Mole that’s a little more red than maroon. Might help to date this later fixture to later 50's but I don’t think so. This no longer should be called a PC fixture but instead effects projector has no normal Mole Richardson name plates or while similar no parts similar enough so as to date thru paint color. Paint colors do vary with time within factories, but this isn’t a Mole fixture.

Now mostly centered for research on who was making lights say in Chicago in like the 40's and 50's that might have come up with an original design for a special effects projector, or copied someone else’s design never otherwise seen also. Especially thinking that this might be from Major given they seemingly often copied other lighting fixtures - or were really similar to MadeLite as a for instance. (MadeLite a research on their own in non-existant company for history.) I do however towards this thought have a 8" PC I think from Major that also isn’t marked in any way but is exactally similar in all parts to a one that is the exact same and that is marked for brand. Major possibly was both making a line of their own, and making a line for someone else. Different fixture types of course the PC and this effects projector, but assuming one Major marked two options and no catalogues exist for what is a 8"{ PC from them, the other not, possible Major made this one I have for someone else and there is no markings just as with the 6" PC fixture I have that’s the same as the 8" PC fixture from Major and with all tags but a smaller lens installed. Major between 1928 and say when Hub bought them out did some strange things.

A working thought at least. Major??? This short of getting into conspiracy theories of when Hub bought out Major, and later bought old lighting castings from many companies so as to make after market lights 20 or more years past efficient. Endless examples of what Hub Electric was making copies of older gear from other companies on, but theoretically Hub didn’t make this light. Altman in bad casting molds to their older lights, to Century, to even some instances of Strand and others - resale of fixtures, or old designs Hub sold.

While Major did copy other fixtures... Hub was like the Borg in copying other designs of older technology.

Otherwise again... old timers in the theater - ever seen this before type research. Has to be more than one out there and or seen before.

Additional concept in why this might just be an effects projector. Look at where the yoke is mounted. It centers weight towards the front of the fixture. Means something heavy had to be installed for balance. Could be that it was some form of filament lamp Sciopticon fixture designed to replace a carbon arc spotlight. Also could be it wasn’t intended to focus - was fixed focus as per the carbon arc I’m yet to work on but believe didn’t.

P.S. don’t be afraid of the price of Mole Richarson Type #60036 spray paint in cost if you have Mole lights in stock. Every ounce of the spay paint will spray out of the can - really good spray paint most theatrical suppliers can get for you. Good stuff if you have Mole lights in stock in for once a spary paint can will empty fully the paint out of it.

 

[derekleffew]

If that's a PAR64 can, that's one BIG baby for six weeks old!

 

[ship]

That's a PAR 20 and a small baby for six weeks.

Finished the fixture today, the lamp provided does seem to center on the lens so the 5" LCL is seemingly correct. There must have been a 5" T-20 lamp that's mogul Bi-pin.

Didn't bench focus yet, but tried some attached accessories. It does seem a valid concept that the off center yoke is so as to balance something on the front. Effects projector it would seem this is. Photos with the Display Stage Lighting effects wheel and unknown brand of scissors extension lens - but probably from Brenkert, and next Kliegl lens train for such an accessory. This fixture seemingly is a modern (40's - 50's) type Sciopticon effects projector.

Next with unknown brand and simlar paint scene machine slide accessory with lens. Linenbacher projector it would seem with a number 58 stamped onto the aluminum plates for it. Finally the same type of slide projector with lens assembly but from Times Square lighting that also fits. Possible the un-named slide projector assembly that fits and is similar in paint came with the fixture.

Only question than before trying is a question of assuming that out of focus reflector. What will it look like with a scene machine slide in it for focus? Our sources at Apollo have had the size for a different size of glass filter to custom make for another scene machine accessory for a few months now. This will be a new one to measure up and see if they can make some form of projection on. Only way I'll be able to test the bench focus for the hole in the the base verses slide mounted lamp position for focus I think is after I get a slide to bench focus with. Best in also testing lenses with the hundred year old mica wheel for fire at work - might be a project for the morning to go in and grab that other effects wheel.

Photos attached with what I think home made focus slide mechanism so as to make for a wider focus, verses the hole where I am initially installing the lamp socket. Again, in sliding lamp socket for focus, there is nothing to keep the socket aligned with the lens should it be moved. Beyond that, note the wider hole and square cut or bent/broke other end of this focus slide. Also a lack of baffle for light given this area is towards the front of the fixture and light will escape.

By the way and why I feel this important - these photos are stuff that most likely is for gear that will other than here never be seen again in the industry. That rare in me pondering about in my way, about the existance of such a fixture and accessories to or used on it. Hope it helps in I think useful.

 

[Judy]

Your guess that it came from a Chicago mfr is supported by our finding one of it's cousins in NW Indiana at a consignment auction fed by peddlers from around the midwest, including Chicago. Ours included several metal rectangles with circular holes in different sizes. There were two plugs, one made by Beaver and the other by Meteor. No maroon paint, just black. We guessed special effects too. Found this website. About mid page are photos with similar looking mechanism.

 

[Judy]

TH 1501 Glass Slide Projectors

 

[ship]

Fascinated in looking very much the same and yet to mount up the replacement cloud wheel and lamp into the fixture for testing my assumption. (Origional c.1911 star light wheel to it went missing about the time the baby was born and my guys cleaned up my department some. Think it went to a cardboard as it was wrapped in after repair, recycling bin.) Someone else has seen one, and yes paint of this is black and red. Very cool and thanks.

While the yoke knob seems similar, mine is about 14" in dia. The same case? Wow that's a long lens train on your fixture.

Will check into the plug sources in possibly making the light. Thanks a lot for the help and will let you know.

My theory so far on this fixture is that it's from the late 40's thru the 50's and at least for the Athanaeum Theater, was bout to replace the 1890's-1911 Berkenhert carbon arc spotlight that was used for the effects wheels up until that point. Does mount the parts, just yet to bench focus the fixture with accessories at this point. Does also confirm the off center balance to the yoke and in seeing a wheel mounted, that perhaps the reflector was designed for a wheel. Thanks much and will know for sure over the weekend.

 

[Judy]

I found a similar device in Kliegel catalogs 1913-1965, offered as an attachment for use with their spot or with the spot included. They promoted theirs as a system to create scenic movement such as falling snow, moving clouds, etc. A rotating disk inside the can held hand painted mica slides that created the illusion of movement. Kliegl sold the slides as well as the equipment, offering 3 dozen different effects. If your now-gone cardboard disk contained some sort of media do you remember what it was made of? Am curious how long they offered hand painted mica. A glass slide was inserted between the two lens. I think the metal rectangles that were attached to ours (just with a metal wire, not installed) may have been used to give more control over the size of the projected image. We don't know if the motor drive in ours works and the media disk is long gone.
In 1913 Kliegl pitched it as something used before the film started, or during intermission. Their 1913 version was carbon arc.
Yeah, that long nose is weird; wondered if it's a user-made add-on but what with the amateur looking yoke fabrication am thinking the manufacturer wasn't big enough to have graduated to pricy tooling. Our's didn't come to us shiny, btw; we clear coated it to keep some surface rust from taking over. Husband tossed the Meteor plug but we still have the Beaver and you're welcome to it. We're lamp makers, not restorers

 

[ship]

Are you sure the brand on the plug is Beaver? Could it be Belson Manufacturing Company by chance? Scratching at straws but think I'm possibly getting closer.

The effects wheel you have if I am correct had the Meteor plug on it, and I'm fairly certain that the effects wheel is made by Meteor Light and Sound out of Alabama some time after 1969. Just spoke with someone there about this question. They did make this type of wheel back than and might even still sell it's discs. Be careful on buying discs, there is different means of mounting and different diamaters. I just mounted a spare Optikenetics cloud disc on one and it took hours to make the mounting parts. Might check with Meteor Meteor Light and Sound Company for Disco Lighting and DJ Effects to see if they have any discs available.

Possible they also made your framing projector lens train - got one or a few myself of different brands. That would be what as you theorize the metal thing with all the holes in it is made for, Possibly more holes for shutters also. Never heard of a framing projector lens train used as a condensor lens assembly (like the one in your link), but I suppose it would work fine.

Mica disc works fine (broken and repaired a bit over the years), but was once one solid piece of like 1/16" mica that was painted probably with lamp dip or some form of oil paint. The, other fabric star light wheel was a kind of tarred scenic duck fabric. Scenic duck is a kind of heavy weight canvis. Overall it was kind of like a 100 year old friction tape only with a more dense thread count. Same dry oiled texture though. This was stretched into a steel frame kind of like a kite. I have one of the carbon arc spotlights this was made for - a Brenkert #C3 from about 1911, believe this fixture in question replaced it in the late 40's thru 50's.

Clear coating is fine, prevention of rust is good. Interesting that yours seems like it's all black instead of red (maroon) and black like mine was. Wonder if your lamp base looks like mine and if you have a halogen or I theorize a tubular incandescent filament lamp instead inside it. Take a photo of the Beaver plug - that will tell me all I need to know. Thanks.

 

[Judy]

Will get you a pic tomorrow. Is labeled BEAVER 660W.250V MADE IN USA.

 

[Judy]

Is same on both sides. I love the way folks used to make even utilitarian items ornamental.

 

[ship]

Working with new sources now that I just made in a crew chief that has other more industry elder contacts and is looking to establish an antique fixture research thing. His sources so far thought Vantage out of California and a shop in Main for who made it. Working TBA on research onto Vantage as a company I know of, but don't list in my older books as a source of fixtures, did they exist in the say 50's I think the fixture was made in about? Also a place in Main someone thought was making it. Another TBA in fleshing it out. At times that's the extent of dogmatic research in only clues to another source.

Meteor probably made her effects wheel - they were around in the late 60's and confirm that they were making an effects wheel. Beaver as some form of plug brand than is now the effort in perhaps "Main" as a location for the company. Company called Beaver in Main making Stage Lighting gear in the late 40's thru later 50's or even 60's? Possible in making these two above lighting fixtures. As with age of Vantage, the next round of research. But getting closer.