The Ongoing Debate of Mic Cable for DMX

bishopthomas

Well-Known Member
So I modified my MagicQ dongle for use with 3 or 5 pin connectors (see pictures below) and added some expandable nylon sleeving and noticed that the cable used was microphone cable. I forgot to snap a shot before putting the sleeving on, but it obviously said microphone cable right on it. How do you purists feel about a company such as Chamsys using microphone cable instead of "proper" DMX data cable? Personally, I don't have a problem with it. Until recently I was using strictly mic cable for all of my cable runs. I have been making new cable and switching over to DMX but only "just because;" I've never had any problems due to using microphone cable. All of my 3 to 5 pin adapters use Gepco install mic cable with expandable sleeving over it, again never any problems. But I know there are some of you out there who are very much against using mic cable to connect lighting gear, so please discuss.

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It is sad that a company that should know etter is using noncompliant cable. That said, it is a very short piece so it shouldn't affect anything. Where you get into problems is on lengths of cable, which is why we always suggest no using it. Again, 3 to 5 adapters are short pieces and shouldn't be a problem.
 
It is sad that a company that should know etter is using noncompliant cable. That said, it is a very short piece so it shouldn't affect anything. Where you get into problems is on lengths of cable, which is why we always suggest no using it. Again, 3 to 5 adapters are short pieces and shouldn't be a problem.

I agree 100%
The problem with dmx is that I will put up with alot, right up to the point when the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
This usually happens 5 minutes after doors, or at places...
However the first rental company that sends me mic cable with a rental is going to not get anymore of my business.
Of course in this case we are talking about a short cable, not a 100' snake. I would be surprised if the adapter caused an issue.
 
I agree 100%
The problem with dmx is that I will put up with alot, right up to the point when the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
This usually happens 5 minutes after doors, or at places...
However the first rental company that sends me mic cable with a rental is going to not get anymore of my business.
Of course in this case we are talking about a short cable, not a 100' snake. I would be surprised if the adapter caused an issue.

I find this die hard mentality contradictory. You would go so far as to never use a rental house again if they send you a mic cable but you say it's alright in short runs. You can't have it both ways. It's either acceptable or it's not. For the record, I have sent DMX down a very many audio snakes and never had a problem. I now tend to refrain, opting for wireless DMX instead. But if I had to I certainly wouldn't be upset about it.
 
I find this die hard mentality contradictory. You would go so far as to never use a rental house again if they send you a mic cable but you say it's alright in short runs. You can't have it both ways. It's either acceptable or it's not. For the record, I have sent DMX down a very many audio snakes and never had a problem. I now tend to refrain, opting for wireless DMX instead. But if I had to I certainly wouldn't be upset about it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the characteristics that make or break a DMX data cable (nominal capacitance and nominal resistance) are distance-related. The metric for those characteristics is generally compared against infinitely long piece of cable, but could also be measured for a given length of cable.

I'm not smart enough about DMX to make a conclusion one way or the other, but from what I do know about DMX cables and the ideal characteristics of them, I would not be surprised if a short piece of cable has negligible impact on the function of a system.

Maybe JFleenor can comment on whether the length of cable matters?
 
I find this die hard mentality contradictory. You would go so far as to never use a rental house again if they send you a mic cable but you say it's alright in short runs. You can't have it both ways. It's either acceptable or it's not. For the record, I have sent DMX down a very many audio snakes and never had a problem. I now tend to refrain, opting for wireless DMX instead. But if I had to I certainly wouldn't be upset about it.
I work with a sporting system that produces weekly shows for TV. They also do nontelevised regularly and on the nontelevised shows they run their DMX through their house snake. Exactly what Josh said did happen. Everything was beautiful until the house opened and the DMX went nuts. My first question when I looked at it was," You are going through the house snake?" He said he always did. Then I asked how much DMX cable did he have? No idea there was a difference. I pulled my cable out and ran it across the floor.
The fact is you can do it thousands of times and it will be fine, then one night it will go south. Wireless DMX is not all that dissimilar, just different headaches.
 
I'm with you, Mike. I'm sure distance is a factor but am unsure at what point that distance becomes a liability. The reason I bring this discussion up is because of the mentality of Joshua. He seems so adamantly against using mic cable, why not make it a policy to actually uphold? If it's okay to use for adapters why isn't it okay to use in short runs to fixtures? Where is the line to be drawn? A four inch adapter is okay, but an 18" cable is not? Obviously the difference is more clear if all of your cable runs are 30', but why make a distinction because of distance?
 
The fact is you can do it thousands of times and it will be fine, then one night it will go south. Wireless DMX is not all that dissimilar, just different headaches.

I hear you loud and clear, and this is the reason why I'm switching over to purely DMX cable. Please don't misunderstand me as saying that using mic cable is acceptable, I'm just trying to bring up a point that some people are very staunch in their opinions but why is it okay to vary that opinion when a detail such as length is introduced?

Also, I've never had a single issue with wireless DMX and don't at all equate it with running microphone cable. I also know several companies that use it for every show, every day, and have also had no issues. I'm talking about high quality wireless with FHSS capability, not the low budget fixed channel variety.
 
I'm with you, Mike. I'm sure distance is a factor but am unsure at what point that distance becomes a liability. The reason I bring this discussion up is because of the mentality of Joshua. He seems so adamantly against using mic cable, why not make it a policy to actually uphold? If it's okay to use for adapters why isn't it okay to use in short runs to fixtures? Where is the line to be drawn? A four inch adapter is okay, but an 18" cable is not? Obviously the difference is more clear if all of your cable runs are 30', but why make a distinction because of distance?
First Joshua builds shows all over the place, I believe he has been to my building. A twenty foot cable probably isn't a problem but you add four or five together and they are a problem. When I order movers, LEDs or anything else that requires DMX, I expect DMX compliant cable.
Think of it this way. I order 10 S4 PARs and cable to run them. 14 will carry it but I would expect 12 to be sent so I could run whatever lengths I want. 14 would limit my options. Mic cable vs DMX is the same, very short pieces aren't a problem, added together they are a problem.
 
First Joshua builds shows all over the place, I believe he has been to my building.

Okay... I'm not attacking him, only questioning his methods and practices. I'm not posing these questions to argue, only to cause some thought to go into the answers.

A twenty foot cable probably isn't a problem but you add four or five together and they are a problem. When I order movers, LEDs or anything else that requires DMX, I expect DMX compliant cable.
Think of it this way. I order 10 S4 PARs and cable to run them. 14 will carry it but I would expect 12 to be sent so I could run whatever lengths I want. 14 would limit my options. Mic cable vs DMX is the same, very short pieces aren't a problem, added together they are a problem.

Again, I totally agree. But why stick a piece of mic cable into a rig that otherwise has none in it? And you would automatically dismiss a company that sends mic cable rather than talk to them about it? If everything else is completely satisfactory, rather than specifically request DMX cable next time (or a replacement) you would just not call them again?
 
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Okay... I'm not attacking him, only questioning his methods and practices. I'm not posing these questions to argue, only to cause some thought to go into the answers.



Again, I totally agree. But why stick a piece of mic cable into a rig that otherwise has none in it? And you would automatically dismiss a company that sends mic cable rather than talk to them about it? If everything else is completely satisfactory, rather than specifically request DMX cable next time (or a replacement) you would just not call them again?
My point that because he works in many venues in many parts of the country he wants the components be the correct type. Enough things can go wrong on a gig, having the wrong cable because it usually works is not a headache he wishes to have. Unfortunately I have to work with what others have ordered or brought. In your case, I think you are setting up your gear for your contracts, so you deal with your headaches. If you are shipping gear to somebody else, they should get what they ask for.
In an area like I live in, I don't have to option to kick a company to the curb like Josh can. Most movers are two hours away, the next is another hour. If they were sending me cables that "could" take my show down, I wouldn't be happy. I would either insist a correction the next time, a reduction on this time or I would buy my own cable.
 
So, any other opinions about this topic? Anyone have real data to back it up? O-scope readings? Who has had issues with improper cabling that could be confirmed to be a cabling issue?
 
So, any other opinions about this topic? Anyone have real data to back it up? O-scope readings? Who has had issues with improper cabling that could be confirmed to be a cabling issue?

About the only thing that comes to mind is that (some) microphone cable is a little better and handling continuous hard twisting and flexing due to it's lack of a full shield. (Usually a braided weave.) Could be that in building the adapter, that compromise was made based on that characteristic.
 
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My point that because he works in many venues in many parts of the country he wants the components be the correct type. Enough things can go wrong on a gig, having the wrong cable because it usually works is not a headache he wishes to have. Unfortunately I have to work with what others have ordered or brought. In your case, I think you are setting up your gear for your contracts, so you deal with your headaches. If you are shipping gear to somebody else, they should get what they ask for.
In an area like I live in, I don't have to option to kick a company to the curb like Josh can. Most movers are two hours away, the next is another hour. If they were sending me cables that "could" take my show down, I wouldn't be happy. I would either insist a correction the next time, a reduction on this time or I would buy my own cable.

Michael,
You are 100% correct.
I have had the misfortune of having 1 bad piece of data cable take down an entire rig. (I didn't design that system)
Therefore I make it my policy to use the correct cable for everything.
Just to be clear, I never allow audio cable in my DMX runs.
However, I don't think a short adapter will cause a problem, as long as your cable run is short.

As for rental companies, If I was in Michael's shoes I likely would do the same, but I have at least 3 or 4 companies I can choose to do business with. So I do have a lot more choice in the matter.
 
One thing I would like to add. In transmission lines, if the impedance is not the same from the beginning of the line, through each of the "splits" (Each light), and at the end (terminator or last light), power loss (signal loss in dB) can occur. This was an issue in RF lines (cable TV and such) however it can apply here as well. The mismatched impedance will cause reflections which can cause errors (usually this is what a terminator is for, however having the line terminated at 110 ohms, when using a different impedance cable can cause even more loss)

That being said, my only thought on using a short mic cable with a long cable is that you will have a mismatched impedance on the beginning line reducing the signal power. HOWEVER, I do no think this cause an issue, as long as the rest of the rig is the same.

A horror story of mine that I have using mic vs. DMX, one that I hope will hit home with everyone. This was my first big show I had ever booked. I did not own DMX cable, the shop I rented the majority of the lights from did not own DMX cable (why?), but because I originally wanted to be a live sound engineer, I had miles of mic cable that the shop said was fine to use. Here is the story:

I was to set up a new years show, (20 LED PARS for stage wash for a band, 4 moving heads with 8 Scanners around the dance area hung on upright truss sticks uplit with LED's, and 60 LED uplights around the room). We put up the stage wash powered and wired for DMX, I tested it beforehand, everything was ok so we cranked it up so the sound guys could start working. We erected the other truss uprights with the heads and scanner, tested fine, so we left them. Then the large quantity of uplights we used got placed throughout the room to dress the walls of the space. Everything tested fine individually with my console driving each line separately to test. (We had 2 1x4 Opto-Splitters which ran the splits for each leg of 20 or so lights). After we had connected and tested each branch individually, it was time to do the whole system. Plugged my console into the splitter, and went to go see some of my programs work! what the &%#$..............

I had no control over either branch of uplights, Half the stage lights would respond to my programs, and the other would do something completely different (as if I had them addressed incorrectly however they were fine as I had tested them individually). Good news though...my movers and scanners were working..... After I had suspected a bad cable from the front end of either chain of LED's I had my crew replace that cable with a known working one...nothing. I started to unplug the last fixtures in the chain, hoping it was a bad fixture or cable causing some weird issue....nothing. I did the same for the other branch of uplights...nothing. As I knew the branches worked individually I removed a branch of uplights from the splitter and hooked it up directly to the console. VOILA!! now what is the problem? After plugging it back into the splitter....nothing. I thought my splitter was fried. That was not the case. I called up a good friend of mine who I knew wasn't busy on new years eve. I told him my problem and he was clueless as well. He came through to the event and started to help me diagnose what could be wrong. We went through every thought and still couldn't figure out what was up. He then asked me, "You're using DMX cable right?" I said, "no mic cable works fine". He was stumped, but he brought out his trunk of DMX he had in his van. We replaced the first cable in the line from the splitter. BAM! I had control. We later replaced as much of the mic cable as we could with DMX before people started to file in. After about multiple hours of headaches and confusion, we had everything in the room working as it should.

Later we tested the mic cable out at the shop, and we found that using the splitter, only some of the mic cable would pass signal, and some wouldn't (hence why the movers and scanners worked but nothing else did). It was impossible to tell which cable was going to work, and which wouldn't. He had never seen anything like this, and neither have I, nor do I ever want to go through that series of problems again, I was drenched in sweat from running around, the client thought I was on drugs because my answers when he asked, "Is everything good?" I replied,"Well I think maybe I don't know, refund, no show maybe I think hold on let me check....". ALL BECAUSE OF MIC CABLE.

So I decided to get the right cable for next time. Since then I have had 0! yes 0! issues with lights not acting as they should because of cabling. In my most humble opinion, using only DMX cable has proved to save me time, effort, and clients because I have one less thing to go wrong (unless you count each cable as 1 thing, then I have about 80 less things that could go wrong).

If a rental company gives me mic cable, I ask for DMX. If they do not have any, I usually try and source it elsewhere or buy it myself if I have to. If those are not an option...pray to the gods of theater and hope things go as they should?
 
Make sure to check it is actually DMX cable tho. I saw (at a local hire company) a box of packages "DMX" cables. Closer looking at the cables revealed that it was just mic cable as well. I would try to buy brand name stuff, I have seen to many instances of cheap cable not being what it says it is.


Sent from my iDevice using Tapatalk - now you have to guess which one!
 
Hey, there, AEG. Thanks for the story, and more importantly, welcome to Control Booth! Good to see your organization represented here. It's funny that so many people have these horror stories and yet no one ever knows the Why of it all. The mic cable goblins are going to eat your babies! Did you ever ask your parents "Why not?" when they told you not to do something and get the response, "Because I said so?" They were always right, but WHY were they always right? :)
 

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