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Mixers/Consoles Thoughts on Roland V-Mix?

Discussion in 'Sound, Music, and Intercom' started by Shillyer, Jan 11, 2009.

  1. Shillyer

    Shillyer Member

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    My high school theater is planning on purchasing a Roland V-mix system (Board +2 16 channel digital snakes) for our wireless mics. I was wondering if anyone has any opinions or has worked with the Roland system before. We were also looking at the Mackie TT24 for a bit so any comments on that system would be appreciated as well.

    The System will be used to mix 30 or so wireless lapel mics during our various productions. The LR feed from that board will be sent to our main board (A&H GL-2800). They will be replacing a pair of Behringer DDX3216's that have recently started acting flaky.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  2. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    So you already have the 30 wireless mics, as that by itself is quite a coordination effort?

    My first thought is that if the receivers are near the console then the digital snake element seems to provide no advantage. However, if the receivers are located off stage and you have CAT5 running from there to FOH then that could be a considerable advantage.

    Another potential issue is not having 30 physical faders, you'll have to be working on at least two fader levels. And someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the preset/scene capability on the V-Mix lets you select what channels to include but what parameters are saved and recalled are defined on a global basis, unlike some other consoles that let you identify the parameters per channel. Theatrical applications is one of the uses where this is most likely to be a potential limitation. I'm also not sure whether the TT24 or V-Mix save and recall the preamp settings.

    Any particular reason you did not include the Yamaha LS9-32 in those being considered? I would think that the form factor with a fader for each of the 30 inputs and a single output fader would fit the application pretty well and functions like mute groups might be useful.

    Thinking really outside the box, in order to take full advantage of scene recall, etc., maybe you should think about a single large console to handle all the mixing duty. It wouldn't be cheap but certainly would not be out of line for any system or application requiring 30 wireless mics.
     
  3. mixmaster

    mixmaster Active Member

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    I'll second the suggestion of the LS9-32. Think of this, 64 total inputs arranged as follows.
    Fader Layer 1 has the inputs that would be otherwise be routed to your A&H board.
    Fader Layer 2 has 32 faders with all your wireless mics on them.
    Custom Fader Layer gets whatever channels you need for a particular show assigned to it.
    You get full control of all channels with all channels from one surface, with full recall of all channel controls. If you want a digital snake from the stage, I heard Aviom just released an expansion card for the LS9 that integrates their equipment, with remote head amp control. Otherwise you can get Cobranet cards for the LS9 also. Whirlwind makes a digital snake that runs on Cobranet. Regardless of how the wireless signals get to the board, Having all you wireless on one 32 channel surface will be a lot nicer than flipping through multiple 24 channel surfaces. And you have an extra A&H board floating around that you could sell for the money to fund your upgrade.
    Something else to think about, I've heard rumors that A&H is coming out with a smaller version of the I-Live console. What I heard was that it is going to be in the LS9 or M7CL price point, so I'd wait and see what they come out with before making a final decision. It's supposed to be out mid month.
     
  4. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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    I third the LS9-32. It's a great board and very easy to use. And with 64 inputs, you very well may be able to move entirely to that, as had been mentioned. Yamaha is the proven leader in low to mid range digital mixing consoles.
     
  5. Eboy87

    Eboy87 Well-Known Member

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    Fourth vote for the LS9, for all the reasons listed already. I think you'll be much happier with one surface with full recall than having to go to multiple consoles, some with recall, some without.
     
  6. hsaunier

    hsaunier Active Member

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    Chalk up another one for the LS9. Like Brad I'm interested to hear how you manage 30 RF inputs without any intermodulation. Must not be near any large city with lots of TV stations.
     
  7. DaveySimps

    DaveySimps CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    At the risk of sounding redundant, I agree, the LS9-32 would be superior (in my opinion) to the Mackie and the Roland. I have found it easier to get use to. Also, consider the ability of using a laptop with the Studio Manager software on it. It can really help, especially in originally setting up a show with so many mics / potential scenes.

    ~Dave
     
  8. Shillyer

    Shillyer Member

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    Thanks for the replies.

    The LS9-32 before but it also looks great and is something we will look at. The V-mix was suggested by one of the shops that supplies most of our gear in our theater.

    The reason for not Integrating both systems is because our wireless system also travels to our middle school for some of their productions so it needs to be self sufficient. they are mainly used for musicals and plays with scene/snapshot type programing. The other reason for not combining the two boards/systems into one is most of the students who end up running these boards do not have the skill to mix and balance not only all the mics but also a well miced orchestra pit.

    Currently we have been running the wireless receivers by the consoles in the back of the auditorium however we have been looking into putting them closer to the stage for better reception and have the Cat5 infrastructure to do so, which certainly is a plus for the Roland system.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2010
  9. Shillyer

    Shillyer Member

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    I believe the Mackie has a similar software client, I will have to look to see if there is a suite that comes with the Roland system as well.

    **Sorry for the double post**

    Also while I would love to wait around for a A&H version we need a system in place for march at the latest.
     
  10. mixmaster

    mixmaster Active Member

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    [QUOTE

    Also while I would love to wait around for a A&H version we need a system in place for march at the latest.[/QUOTE]

    From What I heard, Release date was the 15th. I found info on the website after my previous post.

    ilive-T Series Live Audio Digital Mixing System

    Haven't heard pricing yet. Might be worth waiting for a couple days. Heck it only took 2 weeks for me to get my LS9.

    If you do decide to go LS9 and chose not to sell the A&H board that could become the board that goes out with the wireless gear. Are you going to be putting the mics in monitor mixes? Seems like your going the long way around this.
    Matt
     
  11. Shillyer

    Shillyer Member

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    From What I heard, Release date was the 15th. I found info on the website after my previous post.

    ilive-T Series Live Audio Digital Mixing System

    Haven't heard pricing yet. Might be worth waiting for a couple days. Heck it only took 2 weeks for me to get my LS9.

    If you do decide to go LS9 and chose not to sell the A&H board that could become the board that goes out with the wireless gear. Are you going to be putting the mics in monitor mixes? Seems like your going the long way around this.
    Matt[/QUOTE]

    Oh sweet, I will take a look and wait a bit then.

    We do not run any mics through the monitor mixes. Just through the house. I Do not think we would send the A&H out since it lacks the ability to program in cues and snapshots being an analog board.
     
  12. Eboy87

    Eboy87 Well-Known Member

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    As far as I know, both of them do have software like Studio Manager. It's a production for me to get them from my Mac OS to Windows, so I haven't tried them, but here are the links.

    Mackie TT24 Software

    Roland M400 Software

    May I offer a few more reasons in support of a single LS9?

    From a training standpoint, I'd say go with the LS9. Yamaha uses essentially the same interface for all their digital boards (so far), and sooner or later, if anyone goes on to actually do live audio, they'll run into a Yammie digital. If they have the basics down from using an LS9, they'll be ahead of the game. That being said, the interface isn't all that difficult to get around in. Download Studio Manager and the LS9 editor and see for yourself.

    As for having the wireless go out to your middle school, do you need to use the space the board would normally be used in while the wireless is out? Perhaps keep your A&H if it does, but use the LS9 when it's in house. When it's at the middle school, use its snapshots to handle the bulk of the changes, and use the custom fader layer to put the important channels for the young'uns to mix.

    This is pure hearsay, but I believe there was a post a few years back on the LAB at ProSoundWeb where one of the guys mixed a musical on the M400. If memory serves, he said the board isn't really set up to be a good desk for theatre. I don't recall specifics, only that he was less than enthused about it. Which brings us back to the point of the proliferation of Yamaha consoles.

    As for the smaller version of A&H iLive, my understanding is that it's being announced in the coming weeks, but that it won't actually be on the market until a few months later. I've only read through the first page of this thread, but here's a topic on said iLive on PSW. Son of iLive
     
    Shillyer and (deleted member) like this.
  13. Shillyer

    Shillyer Member

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    Thanks guys, May I say is wasn't in total support of the V-Mix however one of our consultants was very admit about the Roland system and has tried to convince my theater director to go that route.

    The Yamaha does look like a nice setup. Also being someone who plans on going into a career in Audio I agree that it would be nice to get something that is more of an "industry standard." I had a chance to play with a Yamaha digital board at an event recently and I must say I was impressed. I just assumed they ran to expensive. How much would you say a large LS9 goes for on average? (We probably have about a $10k max)
     
  14. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    The only pricing I found is about $11,200 for the 32 input rack and the larger work surface, which is what seems would fit this application, but that is preliminary pricing converted from NZ dollars. Apparently the official announcement may come later this week but if that pricing is close it does put it right at the LS9-32 list price, which would be welcome news. Here is a discussion that also does some comparison with the LS9-32, PSW Sound Reinforcement Forums: LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Son of I-Live. The biggest problem I see is that if it is like many new products, if you do not have it pre-ordered then there will likely be some delay in getting one that may push it outside your deadline.
     
  15. mixmaster

    mixmaster Active Member

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    I would have to dig up the paperwork for certain, but I think the basic 32 channel console was just under $8K when we bought a couple months ago. Depending on what input cards you get, you're looking at $300 to $500 per card, you'll need two cards to get the full 64 channel of input. I've got no clue what a fully digital snake would cost. I'll find my sheets and post back.

    Another thought, If you insist on keeping your analog FOH console, there is a 16 channel version of the LS9 with one expander card on the back. You could use that just for your wireless units. Seems like that was about $4K + a card. but that would lack the ability to do 32 channels of digital inputs.

    I can't comment on the Roland or the Mackie but look at the LS9's virtual effects rack and see if that is something that Roland or Mackie can do. Having all the on-board GEQ and EFX is nice.
     
  16. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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    Right around that 10K mark for console + cards. If the wireless racks are at the console, you won't need an actual digital snake just yet - but when you do get the funds for that, the E-Snake is the way to go. Either that or Ethersound with the LS9 Stagebox available from Yamaha.

    The Yamaha software is fairly standard across all of their boards, and is pretty much an industry standard, so that's definitely a selling point for an educational install.

    Plus, on the LS9-32, you can put a full 31 band graphic EQ right on to the faders for direct control, which is really, really nice.
     
  17. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    Was it a consultant who would not be selling anything or a dealer that would then be selling what they recommend to you?

    Sorry, but this reminded me of two past experiences. In one, the 'consultant' got paid for producing biddable system documents but the specification they wrote listed themselves as the only approved system provider, so they got the consulting contract by bidding very low on it and then made that up, and probably then some, by subsequently being able to bid whatever they wanted for the install and equipment. In the other situation the 'consultant' specified some products for which they were the geographic exclusive dealer, meaning that you had to buy the equipment they specified from them at whatever price they asked, and they refused to consider substitutes even when it was the original product on which the OEM product they specified was based.

    The point is to make sure that what is being specified is for your benefit and not theirs. If nothing else, they should be able to explain why they feel that it is the right thing for you by identifying how it is better for your application and not by comparing things that don't matter or bad mouthing the competition.
     
  18. Shillyer

    Shillyer Member

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    He is more of a "Dealer" however we do also have a "real" consultant who is unaffiliated, we haven't had him recommend anything though.Originally we came to him curious about the Mackie board and found out he is no longer a authorized Mackie dealer, so I think he may have been swayed by that. He then pointed towards and recommended the Roland system.

    I like the LS a lot however I am afraid that the request for funds for the Roland with a quote may have already been put in. I don't know if it is to late to change this decision.
     
  19. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    The Roland snake boxes have a button I don't like the idea of in a school etc. Mute All Outputs I think it is. It's not even recessed... Also note that the Roland needs crossover UTP cables unless you are using a switch (I shouldn't make comment about them being too tight / lazy / whatever to use auto switching ethernet interfaces...)

    Yammie have a new ethersound based stage box designed for the LS9 and M7 not sure if it has actually shipped yet or about pricing. You'd also need ethersound card/s for the console to work with that. It's 16 in. 8 out, so you'd need 2 for your 30ch. Note that 32ch of digital needs the LS9-32 as already mentioned...
     
  20. mixmaster

    mixmaster Active Member

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    My two cents on salesmen:
    After "several" years in this business, I've only dealt with 1 dealer who was unwilling to sell his product to me based on my needs at the time(it pretty bad when a Beringer dealer refuses to sell me a Beringer product!), but I've dealt with several dealers who had recommendations for equipment before I even got done describing my needs. I learned a long time ago, if you don't know exactly what you need, as in part number or model number, you need to talk to an independent source (consultant, engineer, or other non-sales-related professional) first. Once I narrow my parameters to a couple options, I talk to sales people. Preferably multiple sales people. Each person will be able to brag up their device, and hopefully give a different view, and I walk away better informed. I also get a chance to judge the character of the salesman. A salesman who has recommendations before I get done describing my needs usually won't get my business regardless of the what they sell or the price they sell it. Neither will a salesman who talks trash about competing products. The salesman who can address all my concerns, be reasonably respectful of the competition and explain the both the pros and cons of his device is likely to be the one who gets my business. FWIW the Beringer dealer I mentioned above impressed me so much that I went back later and bought some other NON BERINGER stuff from him. I'm just glad he sold other lines of gear because it turned out to be a very good relationship.
    Matt
     

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