Control/Dimming To scene, or not too scene; alas poor Express...

I could go on and on about ways the Express line is faster and 'better' then more modern consoles. I adapt to new technology when it benefits me, not when it hurts me, makes my job harder, and/or makes my job that longer. You can sit here and try and tell me that it is this or it is that, it is prettier, it is 'faster hardware', more memory, whatever. Does it help me or take a step backwards for what I am doing?

First I think it's important to separate the Express (a great and highly functional console) from the more general concept of the 2 scene preset. The question also is not "Should I upgrade from the Express to Ion because the Express is old?" The question is, "Is it time for the 2 scene preset as a design concept to end?" The Express is a great console that can be put into Sub mode, combined with recorded cues, it will remain highly functional in a modern lighting situation for years to come.

But the question is for a new install/system upgrade... does it make sense to install 96 or 192 dimmers in a school and give them a two scene preset? What are they going to learn that is truly useful from the two scene? No in this giant rack/dimmer per circuit world a two scene just doesn't make any sense any more. Like I said above I think it was a bold move by ETC and they are going to loose money to the other companies preying on the uninformed customer. But from our side... it just makes no sense to buy a 2 scene these days.
 
SteveB, would you post a Channel List, Cheat Sheet, or Magic Sheet listing how you control your entire rep plot from 48 channels?

Even in the dark ages when I ran a QM500 or Celco Gold 90, I seldom used the channel handles, except for audience blinders and Leko Band specials. One sacrifices A LOT of individual control by using those Battleship matrix pins. Jean Rosenthal thought the most channels an LD could ever keep in one's head was about 80. I agree that lots of submaster handles can be desireable, but I don't need a handle for every control channel.

...While the Ma is a great desk, it can not do what an Express does with conventionals, both in speed and control. Sure, you have 20 handles and can page through. As SteveB pointed out, an Express 48/96 has 120 handles, with out paging. On top of that, you can still hit the group button @ whatever percent, then enter...
You don't think you can enter <group> <#> @ <%> <*> on a grandMA, HogII or 3, or any other console, except Congo (where I guess the sin-tax would be <enter % at number group>?

You want two scene preset operation? Buy yourself a SmartFade, or Preset Palette, or NSI 7XXX.
 
@gafftaper
You raise a valid point, but I'll put a twist on it. I'd say it depends what the space is. Here, we're lucky and have multiple spaces, one of which is a 150 seat house, with a relatively small stage. Currently in place is an old Electro-controls slide-patch, which I'm tearing out of there this summer, but that's a place where even 48 dimmers are too many. 24 aren't enough, but that's another topic for another day. Granted, when I put 48 dimmers in there and retrofit our Express 24/48, I doubt I'll run it on two-scene, but I could easily see myself using another feature of the 24/48, which is patch whichever channels we're using to the top row of 24 handles, and then have 24 subs available on the bottom row. For productions this won't matter because we'll be in cue mode, but during rehearsals, presentations, showcases, etc. then that would be a really valuable tool. Now, if I were purchasing a new console rather than retrofitting one that we already own, I don't know that I would use the 24/48, but since we do have it and it will do everything we need it to and more for that space, I have no problem putting it in there.

It makes no sense for me to use it as a two-scene when I could more easily run it live with 24 subs and 24 handles. The reason that works so well in my case though is that the odds are slim in that small of a space I would need more than 24 individual handles to use at a time. That's a really small portion of the market though, and ETC knows as well as anybody else that if they don't cover the two-scene preset market, then somebody else will, and they'll make some money, but not much money on it and won't really make any breakthroughs in the industry.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm more than okay with ETC advancing the market while somebody else covers territory they took care of long ago.
 
SteveB, would you post a Channel List, Cheat Sheet, or Magic Sheet listing how you control your entire rep plot from 48 channels?

Basic config. I'll post the plot/hookup tomorrow if I get a moment.

Stage (38ft.w x 35ft.d) in 5 zones, DS to US, Apron, then 1-2-3-4 wings, then white cyc. Black Travelers separate 1-2 and 3 wings and are used all the time.

5 Ch's of N/C, 1st is FOH, then 1-4E tops, also work as work lights in between travelers for lining up the kids. (Note that the plot also functions for 35 graduations in June that can use the entire stage, thus the N/C overheads. The grad's are run on a Colortran Status whose DMX piles on with the Express/Emphasis in the Net2 system, and uses 8 channels from this plot as N/C washes, which I can use to boost intensity to see the expressions of terror on the faces of the the tiny tots).

6 Ch's of Lt Pink and Lt Blue, FOH and Tops (1st and 3rd Elec's). I could use a 3rd color of Amb

15 Ch's of sides - Amb/Pink/Blue ganged L&R, separated by Apron and wings,

3 Ch's of side P/E breakup gobo's (Apron, 1-2w, 3-4w) in L201 for texture of ballets, etc...

6 Ch's of Bax, DS and US in Dp. Amb/Magenta/Dk. Blue

3 Ch's of Cyc, R-B-G

9 Down Pools, all N/C

Pit stuff - usually 3 Ch's, in case the do awards at the end, on the pit, which is usually down about 1ft.

Up to 6 individual Cyc Gobo's or whatever as individual S4 zooms on 1E and as requested day of event by company. I did 3 cyc gobo's tonight, on 3 channels.

MC FOH Special on Pit edge DR, if follow spot not used.


58 total Ch's in single scene, or I cut stuff not needed and can run the basic stuff in 48x2 scene.

24 subs. 1 is a Supermaster for combined sub looks (All Amb Sides, All Amb Bax, All Pools, etc..) saves in programing cues when a visiting "LD" asks for the "Amb Sides" down a bit and is too friggin lazy to refer to her magic sheet (or the plot we gave her). The supermaster essentially creates a mini 3rd preset of key subs.

1 Sub is an FOH Inhibit master to drop FOH when the main act curtain comes in - usually in a hurry.

2 subs as inhibit for ML intensity or ML gobo rate control - if using ML's. If not, I run in single scene and use the GM as the single scene master, then add a sub as master inhibit of all channels.

Other subs as needed to run quickie chases for Hip/Hop, etc...

I could use 36 or more subs. Plus playbacks for ML's, plus playbacks for chases. Playbacks for ML's and Chases are now pre-recorded cues run on the C/D fader. There are typically about 200 cues available for assorted uses. I have a very extensive cue book.


As reply to Grog12's suggestion to use 999 pages of 20....

It's a RPITA to have to move between pages during a fast moving, totally off the cuff event, when your cyc is on page 3, some FOH on page 1, sides on page 2 and you need to immediately pull down stuff for a quickie silhouette. Then build back up. Or drop ALL the 3 & 4 wing side light to highlight kids in 2 wing. I have tried running events on Express with multiple pages of subs and there is no way to easily keep track of where everything is. None. The room for error is huge of hitting the wrong page and grabbing the right fader, just wrong page. You end up trying to 2nd guess how the event will run in trying to build inhibits to gain some zone control. We've tried that route and keep coming back to single or two scene layout.

One thing I'm doing more in the past 2 weeks, forced to by the need for handles, is run in single scene and once I get the piece up and running, I'll dump the initial establishing "look" onto "Hold 1" sub, then the following "Build" look to "Hold 2". I can then pull back down to end the piece. I re-record over the Hold subs for each piece. I can then dump the master for the single scene used to create the look, and get the next piece info from the SM to build up the next look. "Hold" look is a concept on the Colortran Scene Master console.

Note that only 1 of the 7 dance recitals in a month actually rehearses with lighting and builds cues. The SM takes extensive notes on the others and calls the notes back to me while a piece is running. The piece ends, the curtain comes in, FOH inhibit comes down and I run in the next preset to next look. The SM then changes the look from backstage depending on costume color, stage positioning (Kill pools DR and DL, give me MR and ML instead - or "the cyc color looks like crap, change it to Teal) and his/her, as well as the teachers spur-of-the-moment conceptual desires.

If this sounds like multi-scene control, it is, but entirely do-able on an Ion with 120 or more subs, where some are functioning to master/control other subs. Which, BTW allows 2 scene for those who want it.

FWIW and as stated in my other posts, I operate a LOT of events as one-off's this way. I don't have to spend a lot of time, day-of-event, worrying as much about programming time, as the manual control easily lets me wing it. If somebody brought in a GrandMA2 with some fader wings and showed me how to do it better, I'd be an instant convert. I spend a lot of time in conversation with the SM, our PM, and the other operators, discussing how to do it better. Everyone is currently in agreement that manual control works very well, but the ML control sucks on Express, even with Emphasis. Ion looks like it might be a good move for us.

SB
 
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Wow, calm down derekleffew. First, I will admit that it did turn into more about Express line then two scene preset as gaff had stated. Two scene preset is something I just about never use. However, ETC's 24/28, 48/96, and 72/144 all have that ability. I am talking more about the lose of handles that seems to be going do to two scene preset leaving the scene. Why make channel handles if there is no two scene preset anymore?

Second,
Quote:
Originally Posted by SerraAva View Post
...While the Ma is a great desk, it can not do what an Express does with conventionals, both in speed and control. Sure, you have 20 handles and can page through. As SteveB pointed out, an Express 48/96 has 120 handles, with out paging. On top of that, you can still hit the group button @ whatever percent, then enter...
You don't think you can enter <group> <#> @ <%> <*> on a grandMA, HogII or 3, or any other console, except Congo (where I guess the sin-tax would be <enter % at number group>?

You want two scene preset operation? Buy yourself a SmartFade, or Preset Palette, or NSI 7XXX.
I could be wrong, but I never said a Ma, Hog, or any other console couldn't do it, I am merely saying they don't have the handles. I believe in that same post later on, I explain that they can get that control, and a little of what it takes to match that level of control. You guys are also saying remembering what those handles do is hard, well what about remembering what all those handles on all those pages do? I know you can name them, likewise you can on the Express line, though it is all but useless unless you have an Expression or Insight. Personally, I just use my old friend Mr Console Tape and label the stuff.

Third, and I am not trying to start a pissing match here, I can still remember shows I did 3 years ago what each channel is. Just sit me down in front of the same desk, and I can tell you. That, or I can draw it out like I normally do for patching on desks with a large number handles. The reason and point of bringing that up, I set up all my consoles the same way, at least same types anyway. So I know in a 4 light FoH hang, channel 1-4 will be warm SR SRC SLC SL, followed by channels 5-7 being warm 1st SR C SL, then 2nd warm for channels 8-10 SR C SL again. Granted, sometimes I change this, but you get the idea. Makes it very easy to recall everything.

Also, on 48/96 and 72/144, I work in banks of 12. Reason is because that is how the channel faders are divided. Then for 125, 250, Expression, and Insight, I go by banks of 25 then. Because that is how the rows in the screen are spread out. So it is very easy for me to remember and recall channels and what they are. Even on the Hog I work this way, 6x5, 12x5, or in 10s. Yes, sometimes I go over, sometimes under, but it still works logically in my mind at least.
 
@gafftaper
You raise a valid point, but I'll put a twist on it. I'd say it depends what the space is. Here, we're lucky and have multiple spaces, one of which is a 150 seat house, with a relatively small stage. Currently in place is an old Electro-controls slide-patch, which I'm tearing out of there this summer, but that's a place where even 48 dimmers are too many. 24 aren't enough, but that's another topic for another day. Granted, when I put 48 dimmers in there and retrofit our Express 24/48, I doubt I'll run it on two-scene, but I could easily see myself using another feature of the 24/48, which is patch whichever channels we're using to the top row of 24 handles, and then have 24 subs available on the bottom row. For productions this won't matter because we'll be in cue mode, but during rehearsals, presentations, showcases, etc. then that would be a really valuable tool. Now, if I were purchasing a new console rather than retrofitting one that we already own, I don't know that I would use the 24/48, but since we do have it and it will do everything we need it to and more for that space, I have no problem putting it in there.

It makes no sense for me to use it as a two-scene when I could more easily run it live with 24 subs and 24 handles. The reason that works so well in my case though is that the odds are slim in that small of a space I would need more than 24 individual handles to use at a time. That's a really small portion of the market though, and ETC knows as well as anybody else that if they don't cover the two-scene preset market, then somebody else will, and they'll make some money, but not much money on it and won't really make any breakthroughs in the industry.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm more than okay with ETC advancing the market while somebody else covers territory they took care of long ago.

As you described, most of us who know our stuff are going to put the Express in sub mode and recorded cues or subs right? In my previous H.S. theater job I had a theater with 36 dimmers. I used my Express like you describe in Sub mode and very rarely had a need for single channels other than programing I-cue movement or setting gobo rotator levels. So given your type of theater, if you needed to buy a new console it makes a lot more sense to skip the two scene and move straight to a Sub based board.

In my opinion, the one problem with the ETC strategy is that the Smartfades are a little too simple... It's like an expensive NSI product. From Smartfade, it's a huge step up to get a ION/Jr and fader wing. ION alone is not a good answer for a small school/community theater/church... I think we all agree you need subs. So then you have a jump from Smartfade down in the $2k-$3k range to Ion and a wing at $9k-ish... that's a BIG jump. I mentioned it above but I think the leader in the market for a small installation like your little theater now is the Strand Basic Palette. It makes a lot more sense than a two scene preset. 16 subs x 10 pages, 100 channels (128 and 512 channel upgrades available). All the power of the new Palette software. For around $5k. To me it looks like the king of the small school, community theater, and church market.

ETC would be smart to repackage ION in a similar basic model. Most schools, community theaters, and churches don't need encoder wheels. They need submasters. They also need a product in the $5k range... so currently they are faced with switching to Strand or buying an Express.
 
As you described, most of us who know our stuff are going to put the Express in sub mode and recorded cues or subs right? In my previous H.S. theater job I had a theater with 36 dimmers. I used my Express like you describe in Sub mode and very rarely had a need for single channels other than programing I-cue movement or setting gobo rotator levels. So given your type of theater, if you needed to buy a new console it makes a lot more sense to skip the two scene and move straight to a Sub based board.

In my opinion, the one problem with the ETC strategy is that the Smartfades are a little too simple... It's like an expensive NSI product. From Smartfade, it's a huge step up to get a ION/Jr and fader wing. ION alone is not a good answer for a small school/community theater/church... I think we all agree you need subs. So then you have a jump from Smartfade down in the $2k-$3k range to Ion and a wing at $9k-ish... that's a BIG jump. I mentioned it above but I think the leader in the market for a small installation like your little theater now is the Strand Basic Palette. It makes a lot more sense than a two scene preset. 16 subs x 10 pages, 100 channels (128 and 512 channel upgrades available). All the power of the new Palette software. For around $5k. To me it looks like the king of the small school, community theater, and church market.

ETC would be smart to repackage ION in a similar basic model. Most schools, community theaters, and churches don't need encoder wheels. They need submasters. They also need a product in the $5k range... so currently they are faced with switching to Strand or buying an Express.

Er 5k? What are Expresses and Strand 300s going at right now? If ETC wanted to they could do an update of the Express, making sure not to "add the frills". The price on the computing hardware should have come down. I can't imagine it would be terribly expensive or a huge PITA to develop.
 
Er 5k? What are Expresses and Strand 300s going at right now? If ETC wanted to they could do an update of the Express, making sure not to "add the frills". The price on the computing hardware should have come down. I can't imagine it would be terribly expensive or a huge PITA to develop.

Strand no longer makes the 300 (or 500), if you buy a new 300 it's been sitting in some dealer's warehouse for at least a year.

Dealers and Manufacturers don't like to talk a lot about their pricing but here is what I've been told. Out of respect I won't give specific dollars (see note below on what you actually pay vs. list price):
The Strand Basic Palette LISTS in the upper $5k range
Ion without a fader wing LISTS about $1000 more in the upper $6k range
The Express 24/48 LISTS in the low $5k range
The Express 48/96 LISTS just over $7k

As for the second half of your post Charc, Here's my take... would love to hear what Steve Terry or the ETC crew has to say on the topic. The cost isn't the hardware its the software these days. The new consoles are just a PC with just a fancy keyboard interface (on the Palette you can flip up the desktop and see where everything plugs into the PC via USB). Now, the expense is in writing, testing, and maintaining a custom software program. The expense still doesn't make a lot of sense until you think about how many people are buying these consoles, sharing the cost of that development, production, and support team? The original article at the top of this thread said that ETC has sold over 14,000 Express consoles. I believe someone said that's the most of any console ever in history. 14,000 customers share the cost of all those expenses to produce it for a decade. How many people will buy M.S. Office this year? Probably close to 14,000 a day. They share the cost of development together. Unfortunately in our business it's only a few thousand people sharing the cost of development, so if you want a good product the price is not going to come down any time soon.

So yeah they could probably take the Ion software and throw it in a 2 scene preset box... but it would still cost $5k or so because they have to spread the cost of developing the software out. Want to know why NSI is cheap? Its because there's barely any software in those little boards.

Pricing:
Typically you will pay 10%-15% less than list (if it's a large package, in a competitive bid situation, you might get 20% or more off of list). But most of us should figure about 10% off. As I said before your price will vary wildly. The manufacturers give the dealers better deals on the wholesale price depending on the volume they sell. Your dealer figures the final price on a cost plus "X%" basis. They are willing to lower that percentage of profit depending on how much you are buying at once, how much you buy regularly from them, and just if the particular salesman is willing to make a little less money because he likes you (seriously I had a buddy in custom sales a few years back and I got some killer deals).
 
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...If ETC wanted to they could do an update of the Express, making sure not to "add the frills". The price on the computing hardware should have come down. I can't imagine it would be terribly expensive or a huge PITA to develop.
Why would ETC want to develop another console that would just cannibalize sales from Ion/Eos? I agree there seems to be a large hole between SmartFade and Ion, and perhaps an Ion, Jr. is in the works. People will inevitably complain that it's a crippled Ion.

On another forum, users are screaming about HES/Barco's decision to drop the IPC and all of the HogII platform.

Back to David Lincecum's orginal statements, "preset-style" consoles are based on models of the 1950s/60s, and have very little use in today's world of LEDs and MLs. One needs a tracking console, and the more handles it has for subs, single channels, groups, sequences, chases, and playbacks; the better. What's terrific about the grandMA and eventually Eos/Ion, any handle can serve any purpose. One can even force it to be a two-scene preset console if desired, through the use of inhibitive submasters (something FPS never got around to implementing on the HogII).

My first real control system, other than the KliegPac9, was a sixty channel, 5-scene plus independent, platen-preset system by Ward-Leonard. I don't want to go back!
 
Why would ETC want to develop another console that would just cannibalize sales from Ion/Eos? I agree there seems to be a large hole between SmartFade and Ion, and perhaps an Ion, Jr. is in the works. People will inevitably complain that it's a crippled Ion.

On another forum, users are screaming about HES/Barco's decision to drop the IPC and all of the HogII platform.

Back to David Lincecum's orginal statements, "preset-style" consoles are based on models of the 1950s/60s, and have very little use in today's world of LEDs and MLs. One needs a tracking console, and the more handles it has for subs, single channels, groups, sequences, chases, and playbacks; the better. What's terrific about the grandMA and eventually Eos/Ion, any handle can serve any purpose. One can even force it to be a two-scene preset console if desired, through the use of inhibitive submasters (something FPS never got around to implementing on the HogII).

My first real control system, other than the KliegPac9, was a sixty channel, 5-scene plus independent, platen-preset system by Ward-Leonard. I don't want to go back!

I never said ETC would, or should; I said they could.

It's a big question, for sure. I wonder how much time ETC spent talking about it.
 
It's a big question, for sure. I wonder how much time ETC spent talking about it.

It's sort of like how a director gets paid to direct shows, not watch them be performed. Once the show opens the director is off to the next project.

In the same way, the ETC R&D crew gets paid to create new products not watch the current one be sold. Since it's been around 15 years since the Express came out, I imagine they've been talking about how to replace it a little longer than we have.
 
While I will agree that an updated Express/Ion Jr would hurt Ion sales, it is better then no sales at all. It is the same thing with auto sales. As you move up the scale, you move up in performance, size, and luxury. And then, the top of the line for that series is right at the bottom of the line for the series above, giving you the option to step up in size and possibly performance, or take the luxury route and possibly more performance route. For example, a G5 GT (20,500) starts right around the base price for a G6(20,100, and I don't count the rent-a-car edition). Then the G6 GXP (27,600) starts right at the base price for a G8 (26,500). You give the choice to the consumer as to whether or not the move up or down with what they have to spend. However, companies generally make more off of selling a fully loaded or top of the line car then a base car of the series above.

Most theatres and schools are not going to spend 9k for a lighting console. They will spend 5k at the most. Most schools also don't use a high number of LEDs and/or movers, and when they do they rent them. So if given a choice between the top Express 2 or Ion Jr, they will take that over an Ion without touch screens and wings and what not. Then the argument is they can add on to the base Ion. By the time they are ready and/or have the money to do that, it will most likely be time for a new console, meaning the Ion has something in place of it. That would be another 5k to drop into a now outdated Ion, or the Ion 2 or whatever. Everyone would then say the same thing they are now, go with the Ion 2, not wings and screens for an old Ion. Another example, it took 10 years before my high school went from an Encore XL to an Express 48/96, and the reason was the Encore was dieing. Higher functions like cueing and effects weren't working right, if at all. Subs were being re-written by the console. So they fixed it and now use it as a back up. This is in a 2500 seat theatre mind you in a school with 3500 kids and the average person in the community makes 6 figures plus. It still has an Allen & Heath GL3300 which is going no where any time soon, which is 12-13 years old at this point. The school of thought is, if it is broke, fix it. If it can't be fixed, then buy a new one, but only until it is broke and can't be fixed.
 
Base price for a 1000 Ion is around $6500 list. That's not a whole lot more then an Express 250 from 10 years ago, so given inflation....

Granted, no sub wings. A 2x10 is about $875 with a 2x20 about $1700.

A lot of bang for the buck. but a big jump from a Smartfade.

SB
 
But going from 2 grand for a Smartfade ML to 6.5 grand for an Ion is a big jump, at least relative to the dollar amounts we are talking about, sub 10k. So if a school has 5k to spend, your saying get a Smartfade ML or an nothing after the Express discontinues? Or get the Strand or something else at 5k. Again, that means no sale for ETC.

I get trying to move up market, but you forget your roots and then those little companies come under you. They take your smaller, more sales product markets and drive you more and more up market. Then you are just another High End Systems. And how many of those do we need in this small industry?

ETC doesn't need an Express 2 or Ion Jr. They can make do without, but they will lose sales because of it, as well as market share.
 
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Correct me if I am wrong but didn't ETC's success mirror Apple in many ways. In that the growth in their brand came after a large acceptance in the educational arena. Part of the whole "train them on it young and they will used it when they get older" type of business plan. Would this then be as much nose to spite their face mentality?
 
Yeah the missing piece of the puzzle is ETC's version of the Strand Basic Palette. Ion with 16 submasters built in. 100-200 channels with upgrades available. Price it in the $4k-$5k range. Perfect for schools, churches, and community theaters. You get all the power of Ion in a package designed for the small conventional system. (Can I have a cut of the profits ETC gang?). I also doubt many would complain that it isn't a good replacement for the Express.
 
Yeah the missing piece of the puzzle is ETC's version of the Strand Basic Palette. Ion with 16 submasters built in. 100-200 channels with upgrades available. Price it in the $4k-$5k range. Perfect for schools, churches, and community theaters. You get all the power of Ion in a package designed for the small conventional system. (Can I have a cut of the profits ETC gang?). I also doubt many would complain that it isn't a good replacement for the Express.

Sorta like SmartFade, and SmartFade ML? You have Ion, and Ion Conventional? Drop the encoders (but leave attributes, accessible through keypad?)
 
I would look more towards updating the Express line to be honest. Keep the 24/10 subs, maybe add more? I would like more handles vs pages, more useful I think. Up the channel count to 512. Add a second independent cue list, so you don't have to remember where you are with A/B and C/D. 2 universes, one monitor out, maybe two if they are feeling nice, no need for expansion wings or touch screens. Give it the Ion/Eos moving light system and encoders, call it a day. The hardware to run that shouldn't have to be that powerful. Oh, and a single USB port to save/upload files and updates. All this could be done and it be the same size, maybe slightly smaller, maybe slightly bigger then the current Express 125/250.

That leaves the Ion being more powerful and a step up. Possibly more monitor outs, more channels, touch screens, more faders with expansion wings, more cue lists. The Ion would also be a smaller foot print. That means tight spaces either go with a Smartfade or Ion. Packing all that tech and power in a small package is worth more money. Or the space just finds a way to make the Express 2 fit.

This gives them the full line up like they had before. That hole they have now is a big one, because more people spend sub 10k and more still sub 5k on a lighting console then they do above.
 

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