Control/Dimming To scene, or not too scene; alas poor Express...

Its simple. people love the Express. Its easy, small, affordable, and most of all straight forward. To many people who have never used an Ion, or for that matter any middle-high end system, it may seem like something with all those features is pointless to them because they wont ever use them. It may seem daunting, having a wheel or ball instead of a slider, or maybe a new GUI, or perhaps not having DMX built into the actual board but using cat5 cable.

But when you look in the long run you can see just how good it is. However I feel like people just think "Oh, something will come out similar to the express only more modern". And as of right now, that exists (more or less). It's called the Ion. But when that new board comes out, probably will some of the same features, will people still say they want their nice old gray Express? I sure as heck hope not, because what about when your theatre starts to expand? You may finally want to use some of the features of a 21st century lighting, but be stuck with the love affection of the Express. People need to embrace change.

Without it, your theatre will not expand! There's only so much you can do with the Express! To change is to grow, and without growth the world becomes stagnant.

Maybe if the Smartfade wasn't junk, people would be more open to the Ion. But for my clients, I recommend the Ion and if they don't bite I have to go to another company. I really hate doing that. So now I have to spec out computer based systems when I would rather get my clients a real console.

As far as using the Express in the 21st century, I used an Express to run a rig with 6 movers, a dozen color scrollers, and 50+ conventional lights. Not exactly a 400 light rig, but if you were running those you are using a Hog, MA, or Obsession II anyway.

Give me a $2k Ion and I will love it. But as it is, if my client isn't looking to spend $6k+ then I can't get them an ETC. The WORST part is that they have good quality solutions at reasonable price points in every other area, but not this one.

Give me a theater stack with a GO button, a kaypad, and some encoder wheels, with a 256/512 channel option for $2.5k and I will be a happy camper. I don't need channel sliders, I don't need subs (although they are nice), I don't need 1024 channels, I don't need CAT5, standard DMX is fine.

Sometimes price is a problem. If a client has $2.5k to spend, that is all they have to spend. I know they should go the extra mile, but when you don't have it, you don't have it.

Like the article said with the CRT set and HDTV. I have a CRT set that does the job. It is all I could afford. I don't have the money for an HDTV. Would I love one? You bet! But I don't have the money, so I get a good CRT set and it does the job.

Maybe it is just the clients I work with (schools, churches, small professional theaters).

Mike
 
Maybe if the Smartfade wasn't junk

A few things here:

1) The Smartfade ML is one third the cost of an ION system without many accessories. For that price it is good.

2) In the price range of the Smartfade ML (in terms of actual physical consoles, and not software) there is nothing that can come close in terms of programming abilities, inbuilt functions, ease of use, and live buskability.

3) Have you actually used a Smartfade ML? Have you run a show on one, have you programmed on one? Reserve judgment until that point.
 
I'm interested to see what this new console they're coming out with is. I hope it will be everything we dreamed about -- Expression/4, so to speak.

I understand the impermanence thing too, but also in the nonprofit world (church and community theatre especially) there often just isn't the money for a $6k console (or the people that you have to convince to get the money don't understand that $6k is standard price for a modern board).

I would love to be able to put an Ion in at the church. But in the church world, especially the small church, the latest and greatest toys simple aren't reachable. My dimmers there are old Teatronics Genesises that I got a stupid good deal on. I want to replace them with Smartbars or Smartracks, but especially this year, we can't afford the $8k for that. Need a new(er) board. I can't afford $6k for an Ion; I capped myself at $3k knowing even that would be a hard sell. I ended up going with (at first) an old Mantrix/2 that I picked up for $60. For later, I picked up an Obsession/600 for under $1500.

Similarly, I'd love to be able to upgrade our video system to a Grass Valley Indigo and all the cool new toys, but the price tag is too much .. so we've got 20-year-old analog equipment doing the task just fine, thank you.

If there were an Express replacement out a few months ago (before the economy blew up), I bet we could have gotten one. But Smartfade doesn't fit the task, and Ion fits it fine but is overkill and out of the budget. So I'd been looking at either the competition or older used equipment. Used it is.

Getting equipment at a church or community theatre is much like lighting community theatre: you have to decide whether or not you can afford to lose that downstage left frontlight in order to put up a template wash. Often you can't. You have to compromise; otherwise you end up with an Ion but no money to buy any dimmers for it to control.

I too think we're not looking for an exact functional replacement for Express (with the channel handles and the preset architecture and all), but instead a price-point replacement. Otherwise, when Smartfade isn't right for the task, and Ion is out of reach, Strand gets the business. Or NSI-Colortran-Leviton.

That's my rant for the day. It's the long way to say that I, and I'm sure most of us, are anxious to see the new console that's coming out soon. We love ETC and hate to see this market hole that they can't fill.
 
A few things here:

1) The Smartfade ML is one third the cost of an ION system without many accessories. For that price it is good.

2) In the price range of the Smartfade ML (in terms of actual physical consoles, and not software) there is nothing that can come close in terms of programming abilities, inbuilt functions, ease of use, and live buskability.

3) Have you actually used a Smartfade ML? Have you run a show on one, have you programmed on one? Reserve judgment until that point.

I'll agree halfway with you on this one. Smartfade/ML and Smartfade are different animals. I haven't seen Smartfade/ML. Smartfade/ML may well be a decent board, and we should reserve judgment until we drive it.

But Smartfade I have seen. I have tried to drive one. And I can say without a doubt that, the DJ market aside, Smartfade is junk. As a replacement for a little NSI board, sure, it's a functional equivalent, and half-decent. But if you want to do a cue stack, you're out of luck. Comparing to text editors, we're used to pico. They've just come out with the super-duper graphical editor like jEdit; and if we can't afford or don't want jEdit, the other option is vi (a modal editor) because they've dropped pico. (I owe CB a geek-buck for that analogy, and another geek-buck for enjoying using vi to edit files)

For most applications, SF is not the right choice in my experience, but I'll agree that SF/ML can't entirely be lumped in there with SF/Conventional.
 
A few things here:

1) The Smartfade ML is one third the cost of an ION system without many accessories. For that price it is good.

2) In the price range of the Smartfade ML (in terms of actual physical consoles, and not software) there is nothing that can come close in terms of programming abilities, inbuilt functions, ease of use, and live buskability.

3) Have you actually used a Smartfade ML? Have you run a show on one, have you programmed on one? Reserve judgment until that point.

I actually got a chance on the ML the other day. I had test driven the smaller consoles before. I am not impressed. I will recommend a software option to my clients before the Smartfade.

Mike
 
I'm interested to see what this new console they're coming out with is. I hope it will be everything we dreamed about -- Expression/4, so to speak.

I understand the impermanence thing too, but also in the nonprofit world (church and community theatre especially) there often just isn't the money for a $6k console (or the people that you have to convince to get the money don't understand that $6k is standard price for a modern board).

I would love to be able to put an Ion in at the church. But in the church world, especially the small church, the latest and greatest toys simple aren't reachable. My dimmers there are old Teatronics Genesises that I got a stupid good deal on. I want to replace them with Smartbars or Smartracks, but especially this year, we can't afford the $8k for that. Need a new(er) board. I can't afford $6k for an Ion; I capped myself at $3k knowing even that would be a hard sell. I ended up going with (at first) an old Mantrix/2 that I picked up for $60. For later, I picked up an Obsession/600 for under $1500.

Similarly, I'd love to be able to upgrade our video system to a Grass Valley Indigo and all the cool new toys, but the price tag is too much .. so we've got 20-year-old analog equipment doing the task just fine, thank you.

If there were an Express replacement out a few months ago (before the economy blew up), I bet we could have gotten one. But Smartfade doesn't fit the task, and Ion fits it fine but is overkill and out of the budget. So I'd been looking at either the competition or older used equipment. Used it is.

Getting equipment at a church or community theatre is much like lighting community theatre: you have to decide whether or not you can afford to lose that downstage left frontlight in order to put up a template wash. Often you can't. You have to compromise; otherwise you end up with an Ion but no money to buy any dimmers for it to control.

I too think we're not looking for an exact functional replacement for Express (with the channel handles and the preset architecture and all), but instead a price-point replacement. Otherwise, when Smartfade isn't right for the task, and Ion is out of reach, Strand gets the business. Or NSI-Colortran-Leviton.

That's my rant for the day. It's the long way to say that I, and I'm sure most of us, are anxious to see the new console that's coming out soon. We love ETC and hate to see this market hole that they can't fill.

Good post Wayne. I have found if a church could afford an Ion, they already own a Hog or a MA. For example Lake Pointe owns three full sized MAs, an MA light, and an MA Micro. Another church I work with owns two HogIPCs, a Whole Hog II, and two Road Hogs. But then another church I did a set up for only had about $2k for a console. So I had them get a $1k software solution and then think about a console later. Would they have gone $3k? Maybe. Would they have gone $5k+? No way, they just didn't have the money. When I specd out color changers for Lake Pointe, I didn't even bother with scrollers (even though they had 48 already) or Sea Changers. I got them 12 Studio Commands and 24 Color Commands. For my other client I got them LEDs.

Mike
 
So, all you price-point conscious people are saying you want to bring back the GAM Access, which in 1985 retailed for $1799 and cost $140 to manufacturer (when its closest competitor cost $7000)?
 
But Smartfade I have seen. I have tried to drive one. And I can say without a doubt that, the DJ market aside, Smartfade is junk. As a replacement for a little NSI board, sure, it's a functional equivalent, and half-decent. But if you want to do a cue stack, you're out of luck. Comparing to text editors, we're used to pico. They've just come out with the super-duper graphical editor like jEdit; and if we can't afford or don't want jEdit, the other option is vi (a modal editor) because they've dropped pico. (I owe CB a geek-buck for that analogy, and another geek-buck for enjoying using vi to edit files)

I think that you cannot say that the SmartFade is junk. Sure, it does not have the full features that the ION has, or even the Express had for that matter. However, the Smartfade is a powerful little board. Sure, it's not the easiest and most user friendly board. But for small theatres I could easily - especially with the addition of SmartSoft - easily see the SmartFade being a board that could be used - mostly for those that can't afford a board more than $2,000. I'll admit, I used to dislike the SmartFade as well, but since I have used the more advanced functions of it, I have grown to like it and its functionality.

SmartSoft has added a display to the SmartFade, which was one of my biggest problems with the SmartFade. My other problem is no keypad, but I can deal with it.

Will I use it for theatre? Maybe. In theory, I have a "better" board - the Innovator - and I say in theory as the quality of the Innovator leaves a lot to be desired.

Yes, SmartFade is a whole 'nother animal. But that does not make it, "Junk." Is it an exact copy or great replacement for the Express? No! Never said it was. But don't call it junk. If you take the time to learn it, there are many, many, many, many (have I repeated myself enough?) features that make it a great console, not "junk."
 
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So, all you price-point conscious people are saying you want to bring back the GAM Access, which in 1985 retailed for $1799 and cost $140 to manufacturer (when its closest competitor cost $7000)?

? I don't get this post. I am sure the Ion costs much less than its $6k price tag to manufacture.

Mike
 
Since people are throwing around the Smartfade here again, there are another few things that should be said - the regular Smartfades (1248, 1296, 2496) are very different beasts from the Smartfade ML. The regular smartfades are right on par with the NSI MC7500 series. Decent boards, but just fader boards that can be forced to work in cue stack mode when necessary. The SFML is a full ML board, but until you actually sit down with it with some fixtures in front of you, you really can't figure it out. It just becomes really intuitive after an hour or so of working with it. The keystrokes are really easy once you get the hang of it (ie accessing palettes, effects, fixtures, parameters, etc), and having a full 24 memories per page is nice.

I also have to say that none of the people that I have heard pitch the SFML (dealers and ETC reps) have any clue as to how powerful the console is. They really haven't been trained on it well enough to explain it to you in a way that makes sense. Most of my learning on the console was made through simple logical inferences that came from a mashup of thinking about it as something halfway between an MLC16 and an ION.
 
? I don't get this post. I am sure the Ion costs much less than its $6k price tag to manufacture.

Mike


Well, wouldn't that make sense? I mean, it's not like selling something that sells in the millions every year to the general public... A light board sells to a very limited clientele, probably what - only in the thousands to tens of thousands a year? The mark-up has to be much greater to balance out the smaller gross sales, wouldn't it?
 
? I don't get this post. I am sure the Ion costs much less than its $6k price tag to manufacture.

Mike

If you want something old and affordable, go for the GAM Access. I hardly see anyone here complaining HES or Martin should make their fixtures or controllers more affordable for the general market. Simple point being, if it's out of your price range, it's out of your price range. The cost of doing business with the Ion is more than $2k, and that's for a reason. Regardless of how much it costs to manufacture, there are costs for employees, insurance policies, general business, attorneys, further research, etc.

That's all good and great if you want ETC to create the Express and only the Express for another couple decades, but ETC would probably go out of business. Consider the amount of money that has already gone into developing consoles like the Ion. If ETC has the Express on the market also, and more people go for the Express than the Ion simply based on price (but hardly on function), then the amount of money spent developing it probably won't get paid back for quite some time.

How could anyone expect ETC to stay in business AND remain competitors in the industry if they continue to create new and improved consoles, but nobody takes them serious as a console manufacturer and uses them only for low-budget purchases on their cheapest console(s)?

The end of the Expression series was not only a decision based on technological advancements within the industry, but also for business, competition, and growth. I love my Express, but I could never take ETC seriously if they limited themselves to further developments only within that console line. I would be extremely disappointed if that were the case.

I also happen to love the SourceFour, but I'll bet you that if in 2050 rolls around and ETC is still only making SourceFour's, they will go not be able to survive as a business.

For anyone who is upset that the Ion costs too much to be a viable replacement for the Express, I would like to remind you that the Ion was not even intended to fill that void. If the Ion doesn't suit you price-wise or function-wise, then don't buy it. In the meanwhile, don't rip on it for not being what you want it to be. It has a place and a purpose, but don't be mistaken into thinking that it's sole function was to be the new Expression desk.

If you still really want an Express, there are plenty out there in circulation, and I'm sure you shouldn't have trouble finding any. As always with ETC, you probably don't even have to be worried that you'll end up with a lemon, because ETC has wonderful tech support and will continue to repair any products they've made for years to come. Should that not suit your needs, then there are tons of other console manufacturers out there, and I'm sure amongst them all you can find a couple good consoles to fill the voids. I've heard China is producing a lot of really cheap copycats even; why not look there? What I'm hearing right now though are a lot of people that are looking to back themselves into corners, while shooting themselves and everyone around them in the foot. If you buy an Express, and a year down the road from now, someone says, "Why don't we get movers or some really cool DMX stuff?" then the simple response will end up that Express doesn't handle that well and it may be more trouble than it's worth. Now you've just lowered the quality of your venue by wasting money on a cheap console.

This is especially important in venues, schools, churches, and just about everywhere. The consoles are far more likely to remain with that group than the person who purchased it is to remain with that group. If consoles are too expensive, then start saving money for them, rather than purchase something now that will need to be replaced for something better in the near future. Pity upon the person that walks into the situation where they get posed the question, "We just bought that Express two years ago; what do you mean you think we should replace it with something newer and more functional?"
 
Well, wouldn't that make sense? I mean, it's not like selling something that sells in the millions every year to the general public... A light board sells to a very limited clientele, probably what - only in the thousands to tens of thousands a year? The mark-up has to be much greater to balance out the smaller gross sales, wouldn't it?

I would think so, yes.

Mike
 
Since people are throwing around the Smartfade here again, there are another few things that should be said - the regular Smartfades (1248, 1296, 2496) are very different beasts from the Smartfade ML. The regular smartfades are right on par with the NSI MC7500 series. Decent boards, but just fader boards that can be forced to work in cue stack mode when necessary. The SFML is a full ML board, but until you actually sit down with it with some fixtures in front of you, you really can't figure it out. It just becomes really intuitive after an hour or so of working with it. The keystrokes are really easy once you get the hang of it (ie accessing palettes, effects, fixtures, parameters, etc), and having a full 24 memories per page is nice.

I also have to say that none of the people that I have heard pitch the SFML (dealers and ETC reps) have any clue as to how powerful the console is. They really haven't been trained on it well enough to explain it to you in a way that makes sense. Most of my learning on the console was made through simple logical inferences that came from a mashup of thinking about it as something halfway between an MLC16 and an ION.

It seemed very counter intuitive to me and lacking many features I would want in a moving light board. After reading what people on here had to say I was expecting more. Instead I got a version of the regular Smartfade that controlled moving lights. You are right, after about an hour I could run the console. But it is not and did not become intuitive. In fact it takes longer to program moving lights on this console than it does for me an an Express. Not a console I ever look forward to using. I would not shed a tear if ETC discontinued this console tomorrow.

Mike
 
If you want something old and affordable, go for the GAM Access. I hardly see anyone here complaining HES or Martin should make their fixtures or controllers more affordable for the general market. Simple point being, if it's out of your price range, it's out of your price range. The cost of doing business with the Ion is more than $2k, and that's for a reason. Regardless of how much it costs to manufacture, there are costs for employees, insurance policies, general business, attorneys, further research, etc.

That's all good and great if you want ETC to create the Express and only the Express for another couple decades, but ETC would probably go out of business. Consider the amount of money that has already gone into developing consoles like the Ion. If ETC has the Express on the market also, and more people go for the Express than the Ion simply based on price (but hardly on function), then the amount of money spent developing it probably won't get paid back for quite some time.

How could anyone expect ETC to stay in business AND remain competitors in the industry if they continue to create new and improved consoles, but nobody takes them serious as a console manufacturer and uses them only for low-budget purchases on their cheapest console(s)?

The end of the Expression series was not only a decision based on technological advancements within the industry, but also for business, competition, and growth. I love my Express, but I could never take ETC seriously if they limited themselves to further developments only within that console line. I would be extremely disappointed if that were the case.

I also happen to love the SourceFour, but I'll bet you that if in 2050 rolls around and ETC is still only making SourceFour's, they will go not be able to survive as a business.

For anyone who is upset that the Ion costs too much to be a viable replacement for the Express, I would like to remind you that the Ion was not even intended to fill that void. If the Ion doesn't suit you price-wise or function-wise, then don't buy it. In the meanwhile, don't rip on it for not being what you want it to be. It has a place and a purpose, but don't be mistaken into thinking that it's sole function was to be the new Expression desk.

If you still really want an Express, there are plenty out there in circulation, and I'm sure you shouldn't have trouble finding any. As always with ETC, you probably don't even have to be worried that you'll end up with a lemon, because ETC has wonderful tech support and will continue to repair any products they've made for years to come. Should that not suit your needs, then there are tons of other console manufacturers out there, and I'm sure amongst them all you can find a couple good consoles to fill the voids. I've heard China is producing a lot of really cheap copycats even; why not look there? What I'm hearing right now though are a lot of people that are looking to back themselves into corners, while shooting themselves and everyone around them in the foot. If you buy an Express, and a year down the road from now, someone says, "Why don't we get movers or some really cool DMX stuff?" then the simple response will end up that Express doesn't handle that well and it may be more trouble than it's worth. Now you've just lowered the quality of your venue by wasting money on a cheap console.

This is especially important in venues, schools, churches, and just about everywhere. The consoles are far more likely to remain with that group than the person who purchased it is to remain with that group. If consoles are too expensive, then start saving money for them, rather than purchase something now that will need to be replaced for something better in the near future. Pity upon the person that walks into the situation where they get posed the question, "We just bought that Express two years ago; what do you mean you think we should replace it with something newer and more functional?"

1. Martin does have fixtures in the lower end price range. HES does not, but that is their spot in the market. Just as ACT lighting doesn't have an MA in the lower end of the spectrum. Which is fine. They never did. That is not their spot in the market.

2. No one said that ETC should only produce the Express. But why not produce the Ion and an Express type console? You say they don't have to, and that is fine, but they are going to lose a point in the market where i used to spec an Express, now I will have to spec a Strand or a software solution. If that is what ETC wants then that is fine. But ETC has always had a range of consoles for every need (from the Express to the Obsession II) now they do not.

3. I used to spec out ETC everything. Conventionals, dimmers, control, everything. Now I can't anymore in many places. I would recommend the Obsession II to my high end customers and the Express to my budget minded customers. Now I will no longer be able to do that. Which is fine, but sad for me since I love ETC products.

4. I don't think the Ion is the new Express. But there is now a hole in the market from ETC. If ETC is getting out of the market that is fine, but they should not be trying to pawn off the Ion as filling that gap when it does not do the job (which even you admit).

5. There is no reason not to upgrade to LEDs, color scrollers, even movers with the Express. Now if you are running a 10+ ML rig then you might have a little trouble (with the lower channel counts), but other than that the Express works fine with moving lights. No lowering in quality by buying a good reasonably priced console.

6. I always tell people to wait and get what they want. In the meantime they are buying stop-gap measures like software solutions and smaller, cheaper consoles. But you want to know what happens in these venues in the real world? I can tell you this, they don't go back and buy later. They use that other solution for 10+ years even though it was supposed to only last a year or two. Those of us who work with churches and schools know this mentality. "Well, we have a console, we don't need a new one, we have to spend money on other things. I know we were supposed to upgrade, but what we have works fine."

Mike
 
1. Martin does have fixtures in the lower end price range. HES does not, but that is their spot in the market. Just as ACT lighting doesn't have an MA in the lower end of the spectrum. Which is fine. They never did. That is not their spot in the market.

2. No one said that ETC should only produce the Express. But why not produce the Ion and an Express type console? You say they don't have to, and that is fine, but they are going to lose a point in the market where i used to spec an Express, now I will have to spec a Strand or a software solution. If that is what ETC wants then that is fine. But ETC has always had a range of consoles for every need (from the Express to the Obsession II) now they do not.

3. I used to spec out ETC everything. Conventionals, dimmers, control, everything. Now I can't anymore in many places. I would recommend the Obsession II to my high end customers and the Express to my budget minded customers. Now I will no longer be able to do that. Which is fine, but sad for me since I love ETC products.

4. I don't think the Ion is the new Express. But there is now a hole in the market from ETC. If ETC is getting out of the market that is fine, but they should not be trying to pawn off the Ion as filling that gap when it does not do the job (which even you admit).

5. There is no reason not to upgrade to LEDs, color scrollers, even movers with the Express. Now if you are running a 10+ ML rig then you might have a little trouble (with the lower channel counts), but other than that the Express works fine with moving lights. No lowering in quality by buying a good reasonably priced console.

6. I always tell people to wait and get what they want. In the meantime they are buying stop-gap measures like software solutions and smaller, cheaper consoles. But you want to know what happens in these venues in the real world? I can tell you this, they don't go back and buy later. They use that other solution for 10+ years even though it was supposed to only last a year or two. Those of us who work with churches and schools know this mentality. "Well, we have a console, we don't need a new one, we have to spend money on other things. I know we were supposed to upgrade, but what we have works fine."

Mike

That was my point too. Then everybody got wrapped up in price point. I'm not expecting an Ion for $2k. I'm not even expecting an Express for 2k. I would like to see something functionally and economically between the Smartfade and the Ion, a board that, where we used to spec an Express, is the right fit in terms of performance and price.

Sure, 2k is a little unreasonable. 3-4k isn't. Strand have their Baby Palette in this range, I believe. Express used to start in the top of this range.

Simple fact is that if you have less than 6k to spend on a console, and you want more than an NSI board ( =Smartfade), ETC currently doesn't have a product for you. This is the market that Express used to fill, and that hopefully whatever new board they debut soon will fill.
 
Yeah, we used to be able to get the lower end Express consoles for $2k-$3k. I bought one in college when I got tired of my AMDJ console that I sold to a community theater later.

Mike
 
If I was in charge of marketing at ETC, I'd offer a simplified Ion:

1) I'd take away the encoders and use an external tracking device instead.

2) Remove touch screen support, though I have no idea if that saves money on hardware, but it simplifies the purchasing, as if 'ya can't use a touchscreen, 'ya won't be paying big bucks for them. Fewer concerns about theft at the schools, as well.

3) Reduce the channel counts. Offer buy up channel counts

4) Reduce the number of faders supported, maybe make the only fader wings available the 1x20 with no LCD screen, maybe 2 as the max, with buy up to the 2nd wing.

5) Eliminate RRFU support, allow Phone Remote. Allow buy up to RRFU capability.

6) Maybe eliminate Net2/3 support and make it DMX only, though that drives the cost to a system that uses CEM+, as now you need to have a node at the racks to generate DMX

7) Price it smack dab between a Smartfade ML and an Ion with similar Fader capacity.

Call it the Iwant, as when you get done removing things that make the Ion a great console, you'll be screaming I WANT AN ION !

Seriously though, I too was surprised at the hole in between Ion and Smartfade and it doesn't surprise me that ETC has to come up with a cheaper solution to Ion. I think that the Ion is correctly positioned and priced to replace all the Express's, as it offers so much more, as Sarah has written well about. Alongside all the posts here and on LightNetwork about the *gasp* cost of an Ion, are countless others about what a pain it is to do ML's and non static dimmed fixtures on Express and Expression, so now we have the replacement and I agree with ETC that it's the way to go.

I just want better support for submaster management, so if I want to do 2 scene, I can.

Steve B.
 
First off thanks to our friends Steve, Ellen, Sarah (sorry I didn't get to meet you at LDI, you were always doing a Congo demo surround by tons of people) and the rest of the ETC crew lurking about the Booth. I promise no more rant's on the topic and eagerly look forward to your new baby... rant completed, I shall now defend you.

I would agree with them if there were an Ion in the $2k range.

Come on Dude that's really unfair. Strand, Leprecon, EDI, NSI/Leviton/Colortran, Zero88, and others all offer "Express alternative" consoles that fit the needs we have been talking about in this thread and just about all of them are in the $3k+ (Some $4k-$5k or more). So now you are asking ETC, the biggest dog in the market and the BMW of the industry, to produce a higher quality product at a lower cost than the competition? I'm guessing you still expect that 24/7 service too? That's just not fair. At some other point in this thread you say something like "it costs a lot less than $6k to make an Ion so they should lower the price". Of course it does, it's just a $400 computer with some USB interfaces. But how many millions of dollars has ETC spent developing the software to make it more than just another lame PC based lighting system? You aren't paying for the console you are paying for the software and the years of R&D work by Steve Terry's crew. Like other products in time when they have recouped their initial investment the prices may drop, but asking for it right out of the blocks is really unfair.

I would love to own a BMW. But I can't afford one. I own an old Chevy that meets my needs and is in my price range. It would be great if every church and school could afford the future "Ion Jr." or even the real Ion, but there will be many that can't. Heck it would be great if they could all afford Mac 2k's and Hog3's but they can't afford those either. When purchasing gear you have to make choices and prioritize. Eventually, you reach the "if you want to play you have to pay" barrier... that's just the way it is.
 
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At some other point in this thread you say something like "it costs a lot less than $6k to make an Ion so they should lower the price". Of course it does, it's just a $400 computer with some USB interfaces.

You misread that post. Someone pointed out another console and how cheap it was to manufacture and how much it cost (pointing out that companies profit margin on an "inferior console") so I was pointing out ETCs profit margin (once R&D is paid for, which goes into every console) on the Ion.

That is all

Mike
 

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