Control/Dimming To scene, or not too scene; alas poor Express...

[Esoteric]

First off thanks to our friends Steve, Ellen, Sarah (sorry I didn't get to meet you at LDI, you were always doing a Congo demo surround by tons of people) and the rest of the ETC crew lurking about the Booth. I promise no more rant's on the topic and eagerly look forward to your new baby... rant completed, I shall now defend you.



Come on Dude that's really unfair. Strand, Leprecon, EDI, NSI/Leviton/Colortran, Zero88, and others all offer "Express alternative" consoles that fit the needs we have been talking about in this thread and just about all of them are in the $3k+ (Some $4k-$5k or more). So now you are asking ETC, the biggest dog in the market and the BMW of the industry, to produce a higher quality product at a lower cost than the competition? I'm guessing you still expect that 24/7 service too? That's just not fair. At some other point in this thread you say something like "it costs a lot less than $6k to make an Ion so they should lower the price". Of course it does, it's just a $400 computer with some USB interfaces. But how many millions of dollars has ETC spent developing the software to make it more than just another lame PC based lighting system? You aren't paying for the console you are paying for the software and the years of R&D work by Steve Terry's crew. Like other products in time when they have recouped their initial investment the prices may drop, but asking for it right out of the blocks is really unfair.

I would love to own a BMW. But I can't afford one. I own an old Chevy that meets my needs and is in my price range. It would be great if every church and school could afford the future "Ion Jr." or even the real Ion, but there will be many that can't. Heck it would be great if they could all afford Mac 2k's and Hog3's but they can't afford those either. When purchasing gear you have to make choices and prioritize. Eventually, you reach the "if you want to play you have to pay" barrier... that's just the way it is.

I agree with you 100%...........

BUT

1. ETC has always serviced this market. It is a shame that they no longer do and those of us who love ETC products and would always recommend them to our clients now have to go to companies like Leprechaun, Zero 88, Strand, etc. I never thought I would spec anything from Strand other than CD80s or Fresnels. I can't imagine if ETC stopped making the Unison dimming system or came out with another, more advanced light and stopped making the Source 4 all together. If anything in dimming they have expanded INTO that market with the Smartfade system. Now they are getting out of that market in control.

2. If ETC didn't try to market the Ion as a, now listen, (not price point, not a direct, but) a market replacement for the Express then I would have no problem with it. ETC no longer has a control solution for churches, small theaters, etc. Why keep marketing it that way when it really is not. I have clients that read ads in magazines and see this console and read about it being a perfect solution for churches, until I show them the price tag.

Anyway, those are my problems. I know the MA isn't for the vast majority of my clients, but ACT never makes a claim for the MA being ideal for those environments. ETC does.

Mike

 

[gafftaper]

Strand took a cookie cutter, roll them all out at once approach. ETC has been carefully releasing new consoles, one at a time, tailoring each console to a specific area of the market the way they feel best meet's it's needs. This has resulted in a hole in their product line. But, as we have now read from our friend Sarah, there is a new console coming that will directly fill that gap. They listened,or knew all along that there would be this problem, and it's coming. In the years in between, Ion and Smartfade were unfortunately the only replacement options by ETC so they were marketed as such. But it sounds like by the end of the year (USITT?, PLASA?, LDI?) we will be seeing the true replacement.

 

[waynehoskins]

Strand took a cookie cutter, roll them all out at once approach. ETC has been carefully releasing new consoles, one at a time, tailoring each console to a specific area of the market the way they feel best meet's it's needs. This has resulted in a hole in their product line. But, as we have now read from our friend Sarah, there is a new console coming that will directly fill that gap. They listened,or knew all along that there would be this problem, and it's coming. In the years in between, Ion and Smartfade were unfortunately the only replacement options by ETC so they were marketed as such. But it sounds like by the end of the year (USITT?, PLASA?, LDI?) we will be seeing the true replacement.

And that is wonderful news!

 

[MNicolai]

Strand took a cookie cutter, roll them all out at once approach. ETC has been carefully releasing new consoles, one at a time, tailoring each console to a specific area of the market the way they feel best meet's it's needs. This has resulted in a hole in their product line. But, as we have now read from our friend Sarah, there is a new console coming that will directly fill that gap. They listened,or knew all along that there would be this problem, and it's coming. In the years in between, Ion and Smartfade were unfortunately the only replacement options by ETC so they were marketed as such. But it sounds like by the end of the year (USITT?, PLASA?, LDI?) we will be seeing the true replacement.

Years between? Hardly the case, even. Express has only been gone since last summer. With the uproar so far over just that time frame for having a gap in their product line, you'd think they had announced they were going to start making all of their products in overseas sweatshops.

I'm speculating here, but I expect that nothing has happened thus far that they didn't expect to have happen. They tend to do things deliberately, and I expect that this upcoming console is by no means an accidental product of the end of the Expression series.

What I'm getting hyped up for is that when our Arts Center Manager went down to ETC a few weeks ago, Fred told him that he wanted to start focusing more and more on the Revolution. So far, it's a product that's just sort of been there, but Fred said that he really wants to further develop and change that up significantly.

 

[Esoteric]

Strand took a cookie cutter, roll them all out at once approach. ETC has been carefully releasing new consoles, one at a time, tailoring each console to a specific area of the market the way they feel best meet's it's needs. This has resulted in a hole in their product line. But, as we have now read from our friend Sarah, there is a new console coming that will directly fill that gap. They listened,or knew all along that there would be this problem, and it's coming. In the years in between, Ion and Smartfade were unfortunately the only replacement options by ETC so they were marketed as such. But it sounds like by the end of the year (USITT?, PLASA?, LDI?) we will be seeing the true replacement.

I can only hope and pray!

Mike

 

[gafftaper]

Years between? Hardly the case, even. Express has only been gone since last summer.

Sorry, I was meaning years plural in reference to the overall change in the product line. I think it's been over 3 years since Congo came out. Jr. followed 6 months later. I know Eos was announced two years ago at LDI. I think Smartfade followed shortly after that. Then Ion came out last year. You are right, Express was not discontinued until last summer and as was said, I'm sure that the upcoming console was always in the plans.

 

[Jeroen]

I agree with you 100%...........

BUT

If anything in dimming they have expanded INTO that market with the Smartfade system. Now they are getting out of that market in control.

Smartpack fits the Smartfade... so both dimming and control. You can use the Smartfade as a simple and easy two-scene board with 24 channels or as a memry board with 96 channels and 2 independents (so, 98 channels directly under control with faders and buttons).

I agree with you 100%...........
2. If ETC didn't try to market the Ion as a, now listen, (not price point, not a direct, but) a market replacement for the Express then I would have no problem with it. ETC no longer has a control solution for churches, small theaters, etc. Why keep marketing it that way when it really is not. I have clients that read ads in magazines and see this console and read about it being a perfect solution for churches, until I show them the price tag.

Anyway, those are my problems. I know the MA isn't for the vast majority of my clients, but ACT never makes a claim for the MA being ideal for those environments. ETC does.

Mike

Smaller theatres with limited dimmer count can still go with a Smartfade 2496 or Smartfade ML when they have moving lights in their rigg.
I agree that ION is imho a way higher end console than the Express, so aiming at the same market would mean upgrading that market...

 

[jmabray]

One Simple point in this whole debate.

List Price on an ION 1000 - $6,750.00
List Price on an Express 48/96 - $7,050.

So, from some perspectives, the ION is a replacement for an Express.

 

[Esoteric]

Smartpack fits the Smartfade... so both dimming and control. You can use the Smartfade as a simple and easy two-scene board with 24 channels or as a memry board with 96 channels and 2 independents (so, 98 channels directly under control with faders and buttons).


Smaller theatres with limited dimmer count can still go with a Smartfade 2496 or Smartfade ML when they have moving lights in their rigg.
I agree that ION is imho a way higher end console than the Express, so aiming at the same market would mean upgrading that market...

Except that the Smartfade is junk for its price. I wouldn't spec it to clubs and DJs much less churches or schools.

Mike

 

[Esoteric]

One Simple point in this whole debate.

List Price on an ION 1000 - $6,750.00
List Price on an Express 48/96 - $7,050.

So, from some perspectives, the ION is a replacement for an Express.

I have never paid that much for an Express. Even new. I bought a new 48/96 in 2000 for $3750.

Mike

 

[LightingPenguin]

I still think its the fact that many schools or places don't NEED an Ion. They may simply be happy with an Express, and maybe they have a small stupid little 2,000 board for their moving lights, which I doubt they use for each show. But I still say that unless etc DOES come out with a new lower priced board, such as a cheaper version of the Ion or something around there, their sales will continue to be stagnant.

 

[SteveB]

One Simple point in this whole debate.

List Price on an ION 1000 - $6,750.00
List Price on an Express 48/96 - $7,050.

So, from some perspectives, the ION is a replacement for an Express.

We've been over this already, so a reminder that you need to add another $2000 or so, on to the Ion to purchase fader wings that give you the same number of manual handles as the 120 on the Express 48.

Other then that, I agree that essentially, the Ion can (and should) be a replacement for the Express and admit to being puzzled at all the negative opinions that the Ion is priced too high to be such.

Perhaps another way to look at this is that an Ion with 120 faders is still priced lower then an Expression or Insight of 10 years ago and offers TON'S more control.

SB

 

[jmabray]

That was kinda my point Steve. It's priced comparable - or cheaper than most flavors of Express and does way more.

And yes, Mike, I know that you never paid that much for an Express. And you probably wouldn't pay that much for an ION either - it's the Listed price. The only thing that we can compare apples to apples on - that's why I brought them in to the equation.

I don't know if you are aware, Mike (you are relatively new around here), so I will remind you, and others, that I am (or work for) an ETC rep, so yes I am somewhat biased, and I admit it. But to tell me that the the ION is not an Express replacement is a little bit absurd. Is it more expensive than an Express 24/48? Yep, it is, (only for the 24/48), it is cheaper than every other Express model...) but it offers so much more in control than an Express(ion) could ever dream about..... And we are only at the beginning of the software development cycle for this product to boot.....

I don't have any idea what the new console will be. I have heard rumors - but have not seen it, nor have anything concrete, but you know that it will be backed 120% by ETC, (As is everything they have ever made or made by any company that they have acquired.) so at least that you know that you will be not out on a limb at 5:00 on a Saturday afternoon show opening if something goes wrong...

 

[Esoteric]

That was kinda my point Steve. It's priced comparable - or cheaper than most flavors of Express and does way more.

And yes, Mike, I know that you never paid that much for an Express. And you probably wouldn't pay that much for an ION either - it's the Listed price. The only thing that we can compare apples to apples on - that's why I brought them in to the equation.

I don't know if you are aware, Mike, so I will remind you, and others, that I am (or work for) an ETC rep, so yes I am somewhat biased, and I admit it. But to tell me that the the ION is not an Express replacement is a little bit absurd. Is it more expensive than an Express 24/48? Yep, it is, (only for the 24/48), it is cheaper than every other Express model...) but it offers so much more in control than an Express(ion) could ever dream about..... And we are only at the beginning of the software development cycle for this product to boot.....

I don't have any idea what the new console will be. I have heard rumors - but have not seen it, nor have anything concrete, but you know that it will be backed 120% by ETC, (As is everything they have ever made or made by any company that they have acquired.) so at least that you know that you will be not out on a limb at 5:00 on a Saturday afternoon show opening if something goes wrong...

I love ETC. I have always speced ETC equipment and I will as long as I can. I can compare what I pay/sell the Ion and Express for. We all know list prices are meaningless. When comparing that they are not in the same ballpark. I have always been able to get the 24/48, 48/96, and the 125 for under $4k. The 24/48 for right around $2k. The 250 and the 72/144 for only a little more (still less than the Ion). So far the best price I have found on an Ion is $4500 (at one place) and the typical price runs $5k-6k without faders!

The Ion is definitely not a replacement for the Express in any real sense of the word.

Something interesting is happening however. I am finding Expresses harder and harder to come by and they are getting more expensive as theaters/churches are grabbing up the last new and all the used ones out there. My used guy has four times as many Hogs as Express consoles. I recently had someone inquire that I would normally sell a used Express to and I had to quote them a new one because there were no used ones that I could get.

I love ETC but they made a big mistake in this case. I am so glad they are correcting it (at least I hope they are, I am praying we don't get another DJ console like the Smartfade) and I hope my clients will wait that long.

Mike

 

[jmabray]

I love ETC but they made a big mistake in this case.

Just curious. What was the mistake? That they didn't come out with the "Ion Jr" or whatever it will be called sooner? That they are marketing the ION as an Express replacement? That you think they didn't mean to come out with this new console sooner - that it was an afterthought? What was it?

For me, I see a well thought out plan of introducing the EOS, then the ION, then the "Ion Jr" (Or Whatever it is to be called) over the course of 3 years - all the while continuing to update the software, as well as releasing several other products in the same time frame.

Seriously - look at the product line in the last 4 or 5 years. It is completely different from where it was. First it was CEM+, then the Congo platform, then the EOS platform, then the Unison Platform. (Don't forget the SmartFade line figures in there somewhere as well) and it's completely different. For a niche (in the grand scheme of things) manufacturer, 4 years is a pretty radical timeline to totally re-vamp your product line.

What more could you have asked for?

As for the price comparisons... What could you have gotten an Express for (list vs. street) a year (or less) after it came out? I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that the ratio would have been pretty close to what the ION goes for now....

(Please don't mistake my tone here. I hope I don't come across as upset or mad or anything. I am really curious about your thoughts here)

 

[Esoteric]

Just curious. What was the mistake? That they didn't come out with the "Ion Jr" or whatever it will be called sooner? That they are marketing the ION as an Express replacement? That you think they didn't mean to come out with this new console sooner - that it was an afterthought? What was it?

For me, I see a well thought out plan of introducing the EOS, then the ION, then the "Ion Jr" (Or Whatever it is to be called) over the course of 3 years - all the while continuing to update the software, as well as releasing several other products in the same time frame.

Seriously - look at the product line in the last 4 or 5 years. It is completely different from where it was. First it was CEM+, then the Congo platform, then the EOS platform, then the Unison Platform. (Don't forget the SmartFade line figures in there somewhere as well) and it's completely different. For a niche (in the grand scheme of things) manufacturer, 4 years is a pretty radical timeline to totally re-vamp your product line.

What more could you have asked for?

As for the price comparisons... What could you have gotten an Express for (list vs. street) a year (or less) after it came out? I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that the ratio would have been pretty close to what the ION goes for now....

(Please don't mistake my tone here. I hope I don't come across as upset or mad or anything. I am really curious about your thoughts here)

To me the mistake was to leave a gap in their product line for even as long as they will (even though there are a few new Express consoles still to be had), especially if they don't debut the new desk until LDI. To completely leave what used to be a strong market for them (all the community and small professional theaters/churches/etc used to have ETC consoles) for this long is a mistake in my book.

I will have to ask about street price when they came out. If it was the same then a smart tactic by ETC would have been to keep making the Express until the Ion could justify a price drop to become a true Express replacement.

No problems. Discussion is good. I never get offended. Well almost never.

Mike

 

[soundlight]

I will have to ask about street price when they came out. If it was the same then a smart tactic by ETC would have been to keep making the Express until the Ion could justify a price drop to become a true Express replacement.

I was told flat out that this was the plan, but too many parts for the Express(ion) became unavailable in a short amount of time, and the reserves went dry quick.

I was also told to expect a new console at USITT if they keep to their timeline (this was about a month ago?).

 

[Esoteric]

I was told flat out that this was the plan, but too many parts for the Express(ion) became unavailable in a short amount of time, and the reserves went dry quick.

I was also told to expect a new console at USITT if they keep to their timeline (this was about a month ago?).

Interesting. I didn't think ETC would do this on purpose. It seemed very unlike them. I will reserve judgment anymore until USITT then.

Sad that they were forced into this. I have two clients so far that I would have loved to have picked up Express consoles for (now i am going to go Strand for one and Zero88 for the other I think), but were told ETC just ran out of new stock (I did pick up one for another client two weeks ago).

Mike

 

[LightingPenguin]

I was also told to expect a new console at USITT if they keep to their timeline (this was about a month ago?).

Oh god please let me be there. I'm trying to go to USITT Ohio with our USITT student chapter this year, but its a long way aways. Im in California, so we'll see. Is there going to be a CB get together?

Anyways if they release it at the convention, that would be much smarter that doing it at LDI. LDI is far far away, and I think its too long to leave a gap in their system

 

[derekleffew]

Oh god please let me be there. I'm trying to go to USITT Ohio this year, but its a long way aways. Im in California, so we'll see. Is there going to be a CB get together? ...

See this thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/theatre-management-development/10654-free-usitt-pass.html. Details will be announced as the time grows closer.