Control/Dimming To scene, or not too scene; alas poor Express...

I was told flat out that this was the plan, but too many parts for the Express(ion) became unavailable in a short amount of time, and the reserves went dry quick.

I have heard the same thing. As I understand, if things would have gone as planned Express(ion) would still be in production and this debate would not exist.

Jmabray my friend. While believe it or not I agree with a lot of what you've said, it's not fair to compare the list of an Express 48/96 for two reasons. First you buy that 48/96 in order to use handles. I would say a fair comparison would require adding at least two wing panels. Secondly, it seems like dealers had a lot more margin to cut the street price on Express(ion) in recent years than we are seeing so far with Ion. I have no information to prove that, but it makes sense that ETC needs to keep the wholesale price high to pay off their initial investment. Over time, they will make their money back and be able to lower their wholesale price and we will see better street prices on Ion, but the list price will stay the same. When you add the wing panels in and look at real street prices, Ion is clearly more expensive than it's predecessors by at least $3,000. Do you get a lot more for that $3,000? Of course you do and it's well worth it if you can afford it.

Now, let's get "Ion Jr." announced so we can all love it and go back to debating important things like Pirates vs. Ninjas.


Imperial 110v Pirate 4 life!
 
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Now, let's get "Ion Jr." announced so we can all love it and go back to debating important things like Pirates vs. Ninjas.


Unless of course the "Ion Jr." sucks, in which case the debate will never end! Muhahahahahaah
 
I have heard the same thing. As I understand, if things would have gone as planned Express(ion) would still be in production and this debate would not exist.

Jmabray my friend. While believe it or not I agree with a lot of what you've said, it's not fair to compare the list of an Express 48/96 for two reasons. First you buy that 48/96 in order to use handles. I would say a fair comparison would require adding at least two wing panels. Secondly, it seems like dealers had a lot more margin to cut the street price on Express(ion) in recent years than we are seeing so far with Ion. I have no information to prove that, but it makes sense that ETC needs to keep the wholesale price high to pay off their initial investment. Over time, they will make their money back and be able to lower their wholesale price and we will see better street prices on Ion, but the list price will stay the same. When you add the wing panels in and look at real street prices, Ion is clearly more expensive than it's predecessors by at least $3,000. Do you get a lot more for that $3,000? Of course you do and it's well worth it if you can afford it.

While I understand your point about number of handles, I wouldn't go so far to say that's exactly why people bought the console. When that console was developed, that was the way a majority of people thought about and functioned with theatrical lighting control, but there also wasn't the myriad of devices in need of sophisticated control so readily available as there is today.....

You bought that console because it was a good console at a good price that was able to control your lighting in a comfortable manner. So much of lighting (and lighting control) has changed in that time frame....

What I think ETC is doing with the ION (and they have said as much in posts on their own blog) is to anticipate where theatrical lighting control is going and how people will interact and control it both now, and well into the future. This is not exactly an easy thing. They did several studies about how people used the Express consoles and based their decisions on console development on those studies - not on some whim or random thought. They may be wrong, they may be right - only time will tell us what the answer to that question is.

Initially, it may be that some people are a little uncomfortable with the lack of handles on the base console, but when there is change there is always going to be some people that are uncomfortable.

I can't really talk much about how dealers price out the ION in comparison to the Express, as I don't work for a dealer (and if I did, I don't know that I would want to discuss pricing policies in a public forum anyway.) But I do know that there are added costs for a dealer with the release of any new console - ones that have nothing to do with the actual price paid to the manufacturer for the console. As a dealer you now have to train your sales staff on how the console operates, how to sell it, how to demo it, how to train on it, etc. All these costs have to be accounted for somewhere. That may (and I stress MAY) be the reason there is a higher margin on an ION than there would be an Express at this point in time. It could also be that demand is a little more for an ION than an Express and a dealer might be able to get more for the ION. I don't really know....

But I will go back to a point I made earlier - I would expect that an Express console would be priced at a similar point (not dollar wise, but margin wise) at this point in it's lifespan as the ION is now.... but don't quote me on that :grin: Let's see where the ION is priced 10 years from now....
 
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Regardless of the technical debate in the last 10 pages, there is an obvious mistake by ETC, when they have a dominant market sector advantage, but have given it away leaving a vacuum which will inevitably be filled by another company.There is an old theatrical adage, "when you're on a winner, stick to it", ETC's Expression is a winner and history may well judge that dropping it was a major mistake.
Strand was totally dominant in the Australian market up till the eighties when it went "upmarket" and left the budget market to Selecon, Jands, CCT,LSC and others, having given away their base market they eventually became irrelevant in this country.
Let us hope ETC don't make the same mistake.
 
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W But I do know that there are added costs for a dealer with the release of any new console - ones that have nothing to do with the actual price paid to the manufacturer for the console. As a dealer you now have to train your sales staff on how the console operates, how to sell it, how to demo it, how to train on it, etc. All these costs have to be accounted for somewhere. That may (and I stress MAY) be the reason there is a higher margin on an ION than there would be an Express at this point in time. It could also be that demand is a little more for an ION than an Express and a dealer might be able to get more for the ION. I don't really know....

But I will go back to a point I made earlier - I would expect that an Express console would be priced at a similar point (not dollar wise, but margin wise) at this point in it's lifespan as the ION is now.... but don't quote me on that :grin: Let's see where the ION is priced 10 years from now....

Very True. ETC has invested a LOT of money in these new consoles. In time production costs will go down and their initial investment money will be recovered. This will allow ETC to wheel and deal more with their wholesale price and the street price of Ion will drop. Unfortunately we'll have to wait 5+ years for that to happen. :( As with any new technology, early adopters pay the cost of development and setting up the production facilities.


What debate is there....Ninja stealth all day long!
:hand:... and that's why you suck.
 
There is no "right" or "wrong," not even a "mistake." ETC made a choice, and it is what it is. Also, just as they've announced that their next console is not going to be an Express(ion) 2, they have not said that it will be an Ion Jr.

I find it intriguing though that people are infuriated by the propsect of a terribly old technology being phased out, and replaced with newer tech. Theatre people, in all of my experience, have been known for their forward-thinking. I see zero forward-thinking though in these people that are upset to see the Express go, because ETC is offering something slightly more expensive(for now), for something that is exponentially more functional. It's as if you would prefer to stock your installs with equipment that has no upgradeability or expandability shy of a complete console replacement.

Express was good (for what it was used for), but it was (and continues to be) as much a bottleneck as it is simple. I hardly expect the lighting industry will fall apart because of this decision, and have no reason to believe that ETC will be forced to declare bankruptcy as a result of it.
 
There is no "right" or "wrong," not even a "mistake." ETC made a choice, and it is what it is. Also, just as they've announced that their next console is not going to be an Express(ion) 2, they have not said that it will be an Ion Jr.

I find it intriguing though that people are infuriated by the propsect of a terribly old technology being phased out, and replaced with newer tech. Theatre people, in all of my experience, have been known for their forward-thinking. I see zero forward-thinking though in these people that are upset to see the Express go, because ETC is offering something slightly more expensive(for now), for something that is exponentially more functional. It's as if you would prefer to stock your installs with equipment that has no upgradeability or expandability shy of a complete console replacement.

Express was good (for what it was used for), but it was (and continues to be) as much a bottleneck as it is simple. I hardly expect the lighting industry will fall apart because of this decision, and have no reason to believe that ETC will be forced to declare bankruptcy as a result of it.

I don't care. I would love to have all my installs use the Ion or Eos. But the fact is some of my clients can't afford it. What should I do? Pay the difference for them so that they can have the latest technology? It isn't a matter of the latest technology, they know they won't get the latest and greatest. But they should be able to get (like they always have) ETC quality.

Mike
 
I find it intriguing though that people are infuriated by the propsect of a terribly old technology being phased out, and replaced with newer tech. Theatre people, in all of my experience, have been known for their forward-thinking. I see zero forward-thinking though in these people that are upset to see the Express go, because ETC is offering something slightly more expensive(for now), for something that is exponentially more functional. It's as if you would prefer to stock your installs with equipment that has no upgradeability or expandability shy of a complete console replacement.

People are simply infuriated because it wasn't replaced with a new console by the time it was discontinued. Neither the Smartfade nor the ION is a replacement for the Express as a one-time, one-item purchase to put in to an install as a control solution. I'm pretty sure that this is the point that Esoteric is trying to get at.
 
The basic premise here is that the customer is wrong and needs to buy this newer, better product, well the customers may be old fashioned and backward looking and stupid, but they are the customers.
A manufacturer moves too far ahead of his customers at his peril and history is full of examples.
 
The basic premise here is that the customer is wrong and needs to buy this newer, better product, well the customers may be old fashioned and backward looking and stupid, but they are the customers.
A manufacturer moves too far ahead of his customers at his peril and history is full of examples.


A very good point. If a company moves ahead before it's customers are ready, they risk alienating them. But at the same time, how is a company supposed to progress at all? If people are still clinging to the Express after this much time, I doubt they will want to let go, regardless of what other consoles are out there. ETC needs to push its people slowly but firmly, otherwise it seems like we'll be stuck in the age of the Express forever

VIVA LA REVOLUCION!
 
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It is not a question of ETC moving ahead of the customer.

Ion is a scaled-down alternative for the Obsession II, which is the board Express owners drooled over back in the day but could not afford. It seems silly to me to be bashing ETC for making Obsession affordable for the masses.
 
It is not a question of ETC moving ahead of the customer.

Ion is a scaled-down alternative for the Obsession II, which is the board Express owners drooled over back in the day but could not afford. It seems silly to me to be bashing ETC for making Obsession affordable for the masses.

FYI, ION is a scaled down version of the EOS not the Obsession II, to the point that the EOS and the ION run basically the same software and just have different hardware.
 
It is not a question of ETC moving ahead of the customer.

Ion is a scaled-down alternative for the Obsession II, which is the board Express owners drooled over back in the day but could not afford. It seems silly to me to be bashing ETC for making Obsession affordable for the masses.

The problem is it is not affordable for the masses.

No one has a problem with moving forward. Even with ETC pushing forward a bit, but when you push forward you must continue to offer the alternative for some time and let the market catch up. Intel did not stop making single core processors when they brought out the dual core processor.

Whoever said it is a choice by ETC is correct. But it seems odd (especially in this economy) to give up a market share that you have controlled (even had a stranglehold on) to your competition, which would love to fill the void in the market.

Mike
 
Some final thoughts:

I don't think there's any question but that the Ion was originally conceived as a replacement for the Express, as well as the Expression and Insight.

It's configured to be small and basic - the Express replacement, very much a Microvision size (which many LD’s screamed for when Express was introduced). Or up-scalable in terms of hardware, additional outputs, touch screen monitors, etc.. - the Expression/Insight replacement. Plus, the basic Ion is priced at about what a $4500 Express (48/96) being purchased in 1997, would cost in today’s dollars - around $6000.

One immediate issue for a very basic user though, is that Ion is almost too much console for the money, as it has a feature set (as well as operating syntax) that is so different and so far in advance of the Express that it forces many users, who are currently very happy with the basic Express functionality, to exclaim that Ion is TOO different and TOO complicated, when in reality it's not. It still does the very basic stuff as well as an Express or Expression, namely getting channels up on a keypad and recorded into a cue.

The rub comes when you're a user that users the manual section of an Express 2 scene and find yourself desiring the manual capability on Ion and have to pay extra for the fader wings and suddenly Ion is priced a bit high for the Express market. So you look back to the next product from ETC that costs less, and find Smartfade, which is TOO basic and now there's a perceived hole in the product line that ETC suddenly announces they are going to plug.

It is my opinion that part of this sudden hole that developed maybe goes back to a philosophy as expressed by David Lincecum – the ETC Product Manager in his blog last June - “2 scene or not 2 scene” and which was linked in the very first post in this thread. At the time of the blog my impression, was that ETC had missed the point about 2 scene, and while operating a console in 2 scene mode may very well not be an efficient operation, operating in manual mode was very much alive and in demand and that the very basic philosophy of an Ion didn’t support an operating style that many people were comfortable with.

ETC has been hoping that everyone would jump on the Ion/Eos bandwagon and has been seeing and hearing a ton of complaints as they drag us all kicking and screaming into the future.

Not everyone is going gracefully, it seems.

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College
 
There's never going to be a way that we can reach a consensus on this subject. Right now its all your person opinion, whether ETC left an opening or if the ION is a true Express replacement. What I think the real determining point in this discussion will be is when USITT rolls around and ETC (hopefully) releases their new console. If they don't, then we wait for LDI
 
Not all Express users drool over the Obsession. Most Community Theatre's (big Express users) just want a regular preset-style board that anyone can use. They will most likely never need moving lights, so why make them pay for the software? And wings? Seriously.
I heard someone in another thread refer to the Express as "lower-end" and I feel like I should clarify that while it was entry-level, it was not low end.

I think it's real easy to get caught up in the technology hype when you're just the end user, not the one that actually has to fork over the cash. Not that I do, but as someone who has worked for and volunteered with community theatre's and understands community theatre politics and economics, I can say that the Ion and all it's interface is pretty unnecessary for the 100-or-so conventionals they are using. If the thing at least came with 24 submasters it would be perfect. Especially for those times when someone says "just get some pretty lights on stage real quick". It's not too hard to bring up some blue and red with a little front light when you have some real sliders. (and it not cost an extra $1,500 because this will take some over-budget and you will be back to novice users being very intimidated -- which is common in Community Theatre).
 
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Not all Express users drool over the Obsession. Most Community Theatre's (big Express users) just want a regular preset-style board that anyone can use. They will most likely never need moving lights, so why make them pay for the software? And wings? Seriously.
I heard someone in another thread refer to the Express as "lower-end" and I feel like I should clarify that while it was entry-level, it was not low end.

I think it's real easy to get caught up in the technology hype when you're just the end user, not the one that actually has to fork over the cash. Not that I do, but as someone who has worked for and volunteered with community theatre's and understands community theatre politics and economics, I can say that the Ion and all it's interface is pretty unnecessary for the 100-or-so conventionals they are using. If the thing at least came with 24 submasters it would be perfect. Especially for those times when someone says "just get some pretty lights on stage real quick". It's not too hard to bring up some blue and red with a little front light when you have some real sliders. (and it not cost an extra $1,500 because this will take some over-budget and you will be back to novice users being very intimidated -- which is common in Community Theatre).

And in that respect of using submasters to turn on general lighting, that's a concept I used often for making my cues for a show. Put the common lighting on submasters, bring the look up on the handles quickly to see it without having to manually type percentages and channels, add in any specials I need to, and record it. That really speeds up recording time, but you don't need a wing to do that.

Really, the only serious loss of functionality without a wing is busking. That is, for the lower-budget spectrum of the market that we're discussing. But if you look at small community theatres or any place where they mostly record groups first, and then use the groups as they would use submasters to record all of their cues, then there's no reason they can't get an Ion, and expand the functionality of it on a later date. Granted, the piecing together of systems over time isn't fun, but people always seem to look at the Ion and Congo Jr. and see them as pointless without wings. Reality is though, the only real difference for non-busking events is mostly in that the programmer will have to bring items up on groups manually instead of on handles. I think many of these places can afford to take a few extra minutes of programming time to save money, and then if they so choose to add wings later on, it's not hard to do.
 
One piece people are overlooking with the handles issue is that ETC addressed this to some regard with virtual faders.

while no where near as handy as reaching the submaster to your left, the ION DOES allow for sub master control without any wings.
 

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